56 replies to this topic

[Kain Demos]

Fate 6, on 04 May 2015 - 10:18 AM, said:

A. The reason comp players don't bother with the forums is because useful things only get done on Twitter with PGI. Additionally, because they don't want to deal with people making assumptions like your second point:

B. You have no idea if it's a minority or majority that thinks Timber is OP, and it's not IS players that complain it's competitive players. The competitive teams don't care about factions, they'll play whatever is best or whatever they feel like practicing in. If you watched the MLMW streams you'd see why people are tired of the Timber Wolf - in 3/3/3/3 drops 2 if not 3 of the heavies are Timber Wolves 100% of the time. In tonnage based drops generally there are 4-7 Timber Wolves because it's the best mech, period, so people take as many as they can. For example, in the recent AS vs TCAF game there were at least 10 Timber Wolves in drop 2 out of 24 mechs.

Sure, competitive players are the minority, but if you're not listening to balance suggestions from the players that actually know what they're doing then we might as well throw any hope of balance out the window now and PGI can just let us take 12 Timber Wolves into group queue, because I guarantee all competitive teams would do that if they could.

The regular queue and CW are completely different in terms of gameplay style than whatever tournaments those guys are running.

So, are they going to balance the game around the "competitive scene", CW (which has tonnage-limited dropdecks), or the normal queue (which attempts 3/3/3/3 matchups)???

[Gyrok]

Fate 6, on 04 May 2015 - 10:06 AM, said:

1. Nowhere in the statistics is this even suggested. There's no direct comparison of mechs.
2. Again, there's nothing in the statistics that suggests any direct comparison of mechs.
3. This did give Clans some advantage, as the IS were always on Counter Attack or Defense.

What you're also failing to notice is that the Stalker-4N that everyone complains about was the 4th most popular chassis. Not first, not second, but fourth (you have to actually read and see that they defined champion mechs as separate variants so the 9SE and 9SE(C) have separate stats, for example).
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I read the rest of your post with your suggestions on what to change and now I'm pretty sure you're actually just a troll so I'm disappointed that I took the time to respond at all

LOL...The TDR was the most popular chassis, the STK was the second most popular. Yes, the 4N is OP, the TDR is more OP, and was taken 2-3 times more often because it has MOAR OF THE OP!!!!

[Ultimax]

XX Sulla XX, on 04 May 2015 - 10:22 AM, said:

Number of hard points are part of it. But a Grasshopper also has lots of energy hardpoints and even with quirks is not as good as a TW. So its many things not just one thing that is the main problem.

That's because the weapons it would load are straight inferior.

You hit ghost heat on the 4th large type laser.

So if you do three big lasers you now have a bunch of hardpoint that you toss lighter lasers into.

The reason its not nearly as effective is because those 1 and 2 ton lasers have crappy base range.

Remember when people said all laser builds sucked? That's a part of why they sucked.


No IS laser boat can compete without solid +range quirks, which grasshoppers got ZERO of.

[Knyx]

Fate 6, on 04 May 2015 - 10:06 AM, said:

1. Nowhere in the statistics is this even suggested. There's no direct comparison of mechs.
2. Again, there's nothing in the statistics that suggests any direct comparison of mechs.
3. This did give Clans some advantage, as the IS were always on Counter Attack or Defense.

What you're also failing to notice is that the Stalker-4N that everyone complains about was the 4th most popular chassis. Not first, not second, but fourth (you have to actually read and see that they defined champion mechs as separate variants so the 9SE and 9SE(C) have separate stats, for example).
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I read the rest of your post with your suggestions on what to change and now I'm pretty sure you're actually just a troll so I'm disappointed that I took the time to respond at all

1. Yes there is, check again. It shows statistics of which mechs/variants used and how much, as well as how each performed. It is easy to make a comparison even from the most simple compile.
2. See #1
3. not some but a lot.

Yea sure, you are one of "those" people, someone who doesn't share your point a view, and yet can back it up but you know you can't so all you have to resort to is throwing the "troll card" and can't support anything you say. Good luck with that.

Fate 6, on 04 May 2015 - 10:18 AM, said:

A. The reason comp players don't bother with the forums is because useful things only get done on Twitter with PGI. Additionally, because they don't want to deal with people making assumptions like your second point:

B. You have no idea if it's a minority or majority that thinks Timber is OP, and it's not IS players that complain it's competitive players. The competitive teams don't care about factions, they'll play whatever is best or whatever they feel like practicing in. If you watched the MLMW streams you'd see why people are tired of the Timber Wolf - in 3/3/3/3 drops 2 if not 3 of the heavies are Timber Wolves 100% of the time. In tonnage based drops generally there are 4-7 Timber Wolves because it's the best mech, period, so people take as many as they can. For example, in the recent AS vs TCAF game there were at least 10 Timber Wolves in drop 2 out of 24 mechs.

Sure, competitive players are the minority, but if you're not listening to balance suggestions from the players that actually know what they're doing then we might as well throw any hope of balance out the window now and PGI can just let us take 12 Timber Wolves into group queue, because I guarantee all competitive teams would do that if they could.

lol surely. Feel free to prove that one.
It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that the competitive players are not the ones on the forums, except maybe in the faction specific ones. Just because you are ignorant does not mean everyone else is.

It is common knowledge that people are, in reality, tired of NOT seeing more flavor in clan drops. In other words, tired of seeing the same Timber/crow decks. This does NOT make those mechs OP.
If those are the only ones that can compete with super quirked IS mechs and the others can't then naturally people are going to flock to those mechs in most situations. Does that make those mechs OP? no. You and others have yet to provide statistical evidence showing those mechs as OP. Where as we have evidence of quite the contrary, even the latest event shows such.

Edited by Knyx, 04 May 2015 - 10:46 AM.

[Hawk819]

here's an idea:

All Clan `Mechs must receive a -100% Heat Generation (red); -100% UAC Jamming (red); -100% ER PPC Heat and Duration and Velocity (red); -120% LRM 5/10/15/20 and SRM 2/4/6 and Streak 2/4/6 Spread (red); -300% Pulse and ER Laser Heat Generation and Duration (red).

Have I missed anything? Should I go over it again?

I got even better idea. . .

Russ, why not use the following. . .

UAC and AC will use popcorn
LB-x AC will use Gummy Bears
All missiles will use cotton balls.

I'm sick and tired of hearing calls for more nerfs on the Clan `Mechs. Please, do you have something better in mind for the Clans other than more stupid, idiotic nerfs?

Edited by Hawk819, 04 May 2015 - 10:50 AM.

[Kain Demos]

Hawk819, on 04 May 2015 - 10:49 AM, said:

here's an idea:

All Clan `Mechs must receive a -100% Heat Generation (red); -100% UAC Jamming (red); -100% ER PPC Heat and Duration and Velocity (red); -120% LRM 5/10/15/20 and SRM 2/4/6 and Streak 2/4/6 Spread (red); -300% Pulse and ER Laser Heat Generation and Duration (red).

Have I missed anything? Should I go over it again?

I got even better idea. . .

Russ, why not use the following. . .

UAC and AC will use popcorn
LB-x AC will use Gummy Bears
All missiles will use cotton balls.

I'm sick and tired of hearing calls for more nerfs on the Clan `Mechs. Please, do you have something better in mind for the Clans other than more stupid, idiotic nerfs?

Some people just will not be happy until every clan chassis is a steaming pile of ****.

There is just so much pent up rage about how strong they were at release (plus were still cash only and the "P2W cryhards" were out in full force) that I do no think the calls for nerfs will ever stop as long as the game lives no matter what state the balance of the game is actually in.

Edited by Kain Thul, 04 May 2015 - 10:52 AM.

[Scout Derek]

Kain Thul, on 04 May 2015 - 10:51 AM, said:

Some people just will not be happy until every clan chassis is a steaming pile of ****.

You referring to the trolls and the purists?

[Aiden Skye]

I have a much better idea OP. Get good?

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Kain Thul, on 04 May 2015 - 07:15 AM, said:

If they were to cap it at 60 they would then need to make DHS better as well. This "let's make it so we can only shoot 2 lasers every 20 seconds for the children" crap is pretty weak but I could live with a 60 heat hard cap if we got much, much better dissipation.

I recognize that there are players that like the current allowances where we can fire multiple weapons into the same components every single time we fire. But with convergence, our rate of fire and implementation of armor, it simply makes mechs melt like butter.

If we want to compare that to the P&P game, than our MWO accuracy and precision is way out of line. Also adjustments to convergence is a tough nut to crack from what has been explained, so I am open to explore alternatives.

MW3 had a 30 threshold. MW4 has a 60 threshold. So either one would be fine with standard DHS dissipation of 0.2 with the rate of fire scaled to P&P benchmarks. However that is not the case since MWO rate of fire is much higher, which is why I like the idea of doubling dissipation from base with the rest of our doubled values, which is 0.4 for DHS and testing the 30 cap. If we go with 60 than 0.2 should be enough with all of the other heat modifiers floating around.

So, that IMHO is not weak, that is exploring a different approach to aid with balancing MWO that avoids systems like Heat Scale Penalties (Ghost Heat) and can reduce the high volume of damage we deal out with current weapon values; while allowing players full mech customization and the ability to still hit what they want.

And maybe it would be a good idea to simply lower weapon values down some, since we do have quirks to fill in as needed.

Gyrok, on 04 May 2015 - 10:00 AM, said:

The issue we have here, is even in tabletop, that was assessed at the end of your 10 second turn, and you were dissipating heat for each HS during that 10 seconds.

For example:

A WHK prime with 22DHS manages to dissipate 44 heat per 10 second turn. This means the WHK prime could fire 3 CERPPC every 10 seconds, and only gain 1 heat per turn beyond what it could dissipate.

If you tried to setup a hard capped threshold at 30, there would need to be lots of changes to systems to accommodate that...

The difference is all of our shots are basically aimed shots, and we can combine multiple weapons together to hit the same spot, where you'd have a separate roll for each weapon, unless the target was disabled in some way that allowed for an Aimed Shot.

And we already have modifiers all over the place from Heat Containment and Cool Run to quirks and modules, it should not be hard to accomodate a modified Heat System, since what is changing is two to three existing values with how the current systems already work.

So lets say we work with values that are doubled from the P&P game, so with a Warhawk Prime we'd see: 28/30 Threshold, 0.4 per DHS, 20 DHS 8 heat per second, and current quirks. Here ERPPCs should sit at 5 second cooldown to deal 30 damage and 30 heat over 10 seconds.

Fire two ERPPCs, generate 13.79 heat each (27.58 heat). So over a period of 5 seconds 40 heat will dissipate.

And after 3.5 to 4 seconds, 28 to 32 heat is dissipated and we can fire the second set of ERPPCs with a 30 heat cap.

Find a good rhythm, and the Warhawk will be able to sustain firing its ERPPCs.

[Xmith]

AkoolPopTart, on 04 May 2015 - 09:52 AM, said:

In regards to "balance/Nerfing" in general.

"All is fair in love and war"

Find ways to counter build the guy killing you instead of complaining about balance. Use your brains for once. PGI should, if they haven't already, take the lore weapon stats and apply them to the game and lock it. Got a problem with a certain weapon doing X, Y, or Z? Too bad, learn to use it properly. Heavy handed, yes, but balancing in my opinion is an utter waste of time.

Too difficult for most to accomplish. They will continue to get bashed until PGI saves their day.

Edited by Xmith, 04 May 2015 - 02:03 PM.

[AkoolPopTart]

Xmith, on 04 May 2015 - 02:02 PM, said:

Too difficult for most to accomplish. They will continue to get bashed until PGI saves their day.

Damn rookies...

[Tombstoner]

Brody319, on 03 May 2015 - 10:09 PM, said:

Max Heat threshold of 10 for all mechs.
Alpha strike problem - Gone
OP Clan mechs - Gone
OP IS mechs - Gone
Time to Kill - Gone

What about multi gauss mechs.... kinda invalidates all your points.

Praetor Knight, on 04 May 2015 - 01:48 PM, said:

I recognize that there are players that like the current allowances where we can fire multiple weapons into the same components every single time we fire. But with convergence, our rate of fire and implementation of armor, it simply makes mechs melt like butter.

If we want to compare that to the P&P game, than our MWO accuracy and precision is way out of line. Also adjustments to convergence is a tough nut to crack from what has been explained, so I am open to explore alternatives.

MW3 had a 30 threshold. MW4 has a 60 threshold. So either one would be fine with standard DHS dissipation of 0.2 with the rate of fire scaled to P&P benchmarks. However that is not the case since MWO rate of fire is much higher, which is why I like the idea of doubling dissipation from base with the rest of our doubled values, which is 0.4 for DHS and testing the 30 cap. If we go with 60 than 0.2 should be enough with all of the other heat modifiers floating around.

So, that IMHO is not weak, that is exploring a different approach to aid with balancing MWO that avoids systems like Heat Scale Penalties (Ghost Heat) and can reduce the high volume of damage we deal out with current weapon values; while allowing players full mech customization and the ability to still hit what they want.

And maybe it would be a good idea to simply lower weapon values down some, since we do have quirks to fill in as needed.



The difference is all of our shots are basically aimed shots, and we can combine multiple weapons together to hit the same spot, where you'd have a separate roll for each weapon, unless the target was disabled in some way that allowed for an Aimed Shot.

And we already have modifiers all over the place from Heat Containment and Cool Run to quirks and modules, it should not be hard to accomodate a modified Heat System, since what is changing is two to three existing values with how the current systems already work.

So lets say we work with values that are doubled from the P&P game, so with a Warhawk Prime we'd see: 28/30 Threshold, 0.4 per DHS, 20 DHS 8 heat per second, and current quirks. Here ERPPCs should sit at 5 second cooldown to deal 30 damage and 30 heat over 10 seconds.

Fire two ERPPCs, generate 13.79 heat each (27.58 heat). So over a period of 5 seconds 40 heat will dissipate.

And after 3.5 to 4 seconds, 28 to 32 heat is dissipated and we can fire the second set of ERPPCs with a 30 heat cap.

Find a good rhythm, and the Warhawk will be able to sustain firing its ERPPCs.

We can try to compare MWO to TT, but what we really need to compare MWO to are FPS like COD and MW. Time to kill is in seconds. The presence of respawn is irrelevant to PGI. In MWO time to kill is much longer then in a FPS and this is deemed good. PGI also makes comparison between weapon usage. where 3-4 guns in COD are used competitively. PGI point to MWO competitive people and sees 5-6 weapons being used. Except that PGI doesn't see how multi weapon groups function as one super weapon. 3 srm 6's really function as one srm 18. That is one flaw with ghost heat.... well one of many.

All PGI had to do when they increaced rate of fire was to lower damage and heat generation by the same %. double your rate of fire, damage and heat must be 1/2. same damage and same heat as TT but more zap zap daka daka. with a 10 second duration above 30 heat to cause a shut down.

This is a fundamental stratagy when balancing ANYTHING. In the intrested of discloture and where is your game comments.... I am a scientist workining in the process development depart for a major display company. i optimise stuff for a living.

Its very simple, PGI doesnt know what its doing and what its doing is black boxed.

Your stratagy for the warhalk sustaning ppc fire.... goes against PGI's design paradigm that heat neutral mechs are BAD. your suposed to blaze away and fall back..... its called changing clips..... MWO is designed to be a FPS not a sim. very difrent kinds of games.

PGI tries... it really does, but it does 1/2 measures. it keeps to lore when it shouldnt. it violates lore when it shouldn't.
PGI is really its own worse enemy. the game cant its simply cannot be balanced in terms of math. subjective balance sure.... but thats subjective...... and why this game is fundamentaly FUBAR.

[Slow and Decrepit]

W A R K H A N, on 04 May 2015 - 12:33 PM, said:

I have a much better idea OP. Get good?

Get good? I wasn't calling for a nerf, learn how to read! Plus if you'd bother to read, you would know that I'm not worth a damn because I've been fighting cancer for 15 years, and that's with chemo every damn month with no break except for my two stem cell transplants. I like to see the people who didn't bother to read my 1st post, and chastise me for calling for nerfs when I was merely talking about the subject, try and play after going through all the stuff that I have. Easy mode, sure I do easy mode some days, but not always. I didn't come here because I got killed by a certain mech, I came to talk about the state of the game! Gissssshhhhhh! There, I changed the title since some of us just don't want to take the time to read things through. I didn't know that I was being so deceptive with my writing. Oh well. Some of you have some very interesting idea's that I would be willing to try out. Maybe do poll and then tweet Russ the results. I will say that since the Victor's main thing that it had going for it will remain forever nerfed (JJ) aleast give it the same armor quirks that the Zeus has. The Victor was a lightly armored mech in lore, but had great mobility. Since they killed the mobility, at least give it some dam armor so I don't have to look at mine collecting dust!

Edited by beleneagle, 04 May 2015 - 04:30 PM.

[Slow and Decrepit]

https://youtu.be/WBtbMFh4c8s

Remember this....https://youtu.be/WBtbMFh4c8s

Edited by beleneagle, 04 May 2015 - 04:53 PM.

[Burktross]

Knyx, on 04 May 2015 - 05:39 AM, said:

7/10 for troll bait OP. Only the vocal minority thinks the TW and SCR are OP, and anytime DW is mentioned as OP, whomever mentioned it should uninstall the game.


Statistically even the Tuk event showed:
1. The top IS mechs are quite a big stronger then the top clan mechs (Ty over quirking)
2. Even some of the non top IS mechs contend with the top clan mechs.
3. Attack- invasion and Hold territory give you and automatic advantage (which most of us already knew)


What I think needs to be done?

1. The top IS mechs need to have their quirks reduced a bit. Ex: Stalker, Tbolt, jager, FS
2. Give IS an ECM heavy but make it hardpoint location deficient like the Summoner
3. Move the ECM platform from hellbringer and Hardwire it into every LT (or RT) omnipod for Summoner
4. Give Hellbringer Endo and add some quirks to arms and Torsos (no none of this -3% ERPPC heat crap, or LBX spread crap)
5. Add a hardwired TC V to all Hellbringer LTs, with no additional tonnage cost.
6. Remove JJs from Dire Wolf -S, Remove most of the hardpoints on DW-S LT and RT and Give those torsos MASC
7. Increase the current weapon quirks and give all LT and RT omnipods high acceleration, reverse, and torso twist quirks for the Gargoyle
8. Give Ice ferret -10% energy Heat generation and +Range to SRM and SSRM quirks on all RT omnipods
9. Hardwire ECM in all LT omnipods for Mist lynx at no additional tonnage and replace current arm ECM hardpoint with an additional missile hardpoint
10. Add some quirks to Mad dog Torsos for +armor, -heat gen for missiles, and reduced spread and +range for SRM as well as SSRM
11. Reduce heat on ALL clans Ballistics (except gauss), increase ammo per ton on all clan ballistics (except Gauss), and lower cooldown on ALL LBX platforms by a good mount.

Wait, jagers have ridiculous quirks?
This is new to me. Here I am just running Std. engine, 2 PPC, 4 MG, 2 mL Jager

[Slow and Decrepit]

I'm trying a standard in some of my Victors, but it's just not the same. I used to be able to get down to 20% health with a XL, but can't do that anymore with the higher powered alpha's that we have going on now. Maybe I should run a Jager with it's OP quirks?

Edited by beleneagle, 04 May 2015 - 05:35 PM.

[Quaamik]

Kjudoon, on 03 May 2015 - 10:55 PM, said:

2. Include Battle Value for builds with Elo, in PQs.

Actually, that could work in CW.

Put an "as built" value on all mechs. Its there already for use in inventory. Then put a drop deck value on each world under contest, as though the Clans had done a batchcall. Compare an incoming players deck against the weight limit and the value limit. Let them know if it is overvalue (highlight red). The big thing was thy would need to be able to see that "as built" value in the mech lab and when making / adjusting their drop deck.