54 replies to this topic

[Navid A1]

Among all the outcries here on the forums about OPness of certain clan or IS mechs it always tend to go towards theoretical comparison, assumptions, imaginations and advantage listings with less attention towards results, experiments, available mech choices, player-base skill concentration on each side and actual performance.

Take the timby as the center of focus of all OPness related things. In my opinion the timby has good speed good armor good weapon hardpoints, and vast hitboxes. A very good combination.
However, i did not understand how timby became timbergod just because it was the only mech the clans were fielding (and dominating).

My assumption was that because clan mechs are more expensive and had more appeal to them (because shiny clams!!) they tend to attract the more experienced side of the player base to themselves. Other clan mechs simply got ignored because other clan mechs had little to offer compared to timby and the crow, and elite units had little reason to drop in them (except for fun).
The IS side which had more pugs saw a foe with only 2 mech types rolling on any and everything.

The clan dominance continued until a time most elite units that were traditionally clan, moved to IS side. during that period, the late thunderbolt9S and stalker4N seemed unstoppable exactly on the same level as the timbergod.

So i thought maybe that there is more to it than just weapons/hardpoints when a 6LL STK-4N can destroy any build of timby nearly all the time, while timby is still the timbergod (personal experience sitting in both of them... i may be wrong though).

Finally my question is that: 1- Is the timby considered OP because it is actually OP or is it because there is a high concentration of skill in that chassis? (due to under-performing other clan mechs). 2- Is the STK-4N not considered OP because the IS skill is distributed among a number of chassis? (which means that IS side has a good number of well-performing chassis).. and 3- Is meta created as a result of equipment potency? or high concentration of skill on a tool?


Also... why in this late tukayyid event, despite a high number of very good units fighting for clans and very long queues on the IS, the victory was only marginal?

Edited by Navid A1, 03 May 2015 - 11:05 PM.

[Onmyoudo]

Navid A1, on 03 May 2015 - 10:42 PM, said:

Finally my question is that: 1- Is the timby considered OP because it is actually OP or is it because there is a high concentration of skill in that chassis? (due to under-performing other clan mechs). 2- Is the STK-4N not considered OP because the IS skill is distributed among a number of chassis? (which means that IS side has a good number of well-performing chassis).. and 3- Is meta created as a result of equipment potency? or high concentration of skill on a tool?


Also... why in this late tukayyid event, despite a high number of very good units fighting for clans and very long queues on the IS, the victory was only marginal?

1) It's considered OP because it's actually OP.
2) It's not considered OP (by some) because it has an array of weaknesses such as slow speed, easy to destroy side torsos prevent XL use, reliance on a single loadout on a single variant based entirely around quirks which could feasibly be changed on any given patch, and a false "effectiveness" that only makes it as good as it is due to the current metagame. The Timberwolf does not have any such limitations.
3) It's created by equipment potency.
4) The IS had more good units, and the mechanics of the invasion system are dumb.

TL;DR: No, you are not more skilled because you pilot a Timberwolf.

[Augustus Martelus II]

Skills of pilot and people knowing how to exploit the Meta eras are the main factor. It aint the mech that will make someone superior Clan or IS.

I know that Clans have a lot of the elite players (true hardcore fans). Because when i drive a clan mech, i must ALWAYS watch my heat management.

I m an Ambusher-brawler kind of player....not a sniper or etc... so i need something fast...that can give a good punishement and that can run out when its getting too hot. So med mechs are mostly the ones i drive. I do ahve a preference for the Crow because of how is hardpoints are put because it fit my style. People who did see me on the battlefield know that i mostly drive non-meta build and mostly med to short range config. So when you see me in your enemies...always watch your back...because i might be waiting for you

[Tincan Nightmare]

So now if someone is piloting a Timber Wolf that means they are automatically an expert pilot? The whole balance issue between IS and Clans is very heated with lots of ideas being thrown back and forth, but the concept that the Timby is just a 'good' mech that only elite pilots use and that is why it is considered OP is just crazy. Even almost all clanners who use it will admit that it is hands down the best heavy mech in the game.

Well I have a Timby in my garage also, so I guess I should just go with this and consider myself and elite pilot.

[El Bandito]

El Bandito, on 03 May 2015 - 04:40 AM, said:

Funny, that's what I thought about the Crow and the Timbie once I mastered them. Those Clan mechs were in fact so easy-mode, I stopped playing them soon afterwards. Big waste of 100 million C-Bills.

El Bandito, on 27 April 2015 - 06:28 AM, said:

Yeah, one mech--and only one variant at that. One that is only competitive due to quirks--quirks that are frequently subject to change. Now compare that against Timbies and Crows, which are already top tier without any quirks, and will likely to remain so.

Skill has nothing to do with piloting Timberwolf. In fact it is often the opposite. Timbie and Crow give bad pilots chance to get to the fight and do some damage while surviving a side torso destruction--in other words, a crutch.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 May 2015 - 11:48 PM.

[Brody319]

of course player skill play a part in how effective a chassis is.
The difference is how much skill it takes to make a chassis good.
Thunderbolt, TWolf, Stalker, are all sitting at a "low skill high effect" area where a player doesn't need a ton of skill to be really good in it.

while a chassis like the Raven would require a bit more skill to meet the same effectiveness.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Augustus Martelus II, on 03 May 2015 - 11:38 PM, said:

Skills of pilot and people knowing how to exploit the Meta eras are the main factor. It aint the mech that will make someone superior Clan or IS.

I know that Clans have a lot of the elite players (true hardcore fans). Because when i drive a clan mech, i must ALWAYS watch my heat management.

I m an Ambusher-brawler kind of player....not a sniper or etc... so i need something fast...that can give a good punishement and that can run out when its getting too hot. So med mechs are mostly the ones i drive. I do ahve a preference for the Crow because of how is hardpoints are put because it fit my style. People who did see me on the battlefield know that i mostly drive non-meta build and mostly med to short range config. So when you see me in your enemies...always watch your back...because i might be waiting for you

So when the whole tier ranking came out, placing mechs in different brackets based on their performance, it was incorrect because the top tier mechs simply had the best pilot while the lower tier mechs had total noobs piloting them? Damn, I guess they should have left the T-bolt 9S with its powerful quirks for heat reduction, cooldown, and velocity, the only issue was that just good pilots were using it and the quirks didn't matter. Or evidently factors such as hardpoint quantity and location, hit box layout, agility and speed. I'm sure that the Stormcrow is a deadly mech in your hands, and would just be a wasted 55 ton bullet magnet if a 'normal' pilot were using it.

Now PGI must start balancing the game based on Epeen, yay!

[Duke Nedo]

A simple way to think about it is that if you load up the only IS 75 tonner with the biggest STD engine there is, a STD 360 vs the timbys XL 375, the Orion has 14 tons left for weapons while the Timby has 28.

That's a reasonable comparison imo, the timby goes a bit faster, but dies from 2 ST destructions. The clan weapons are lighter, but hotter. There are a few more factors but all in all, those 14 tons of handicap is what Quirks need to compensate for to achieve balance. In case of the Orion that won't help anyways though, because of hardpoint limitations/placement.

[Juodas Varnas]

Duke Nedo, on 04 May 2015 - 12:00 AM, said:

A simple way to think about it is that if you load up the only IS 75 tonner with the biggest STD engine there is, a STD 360 vs the timbys XL 375, the Orion has 14 tons left for weapons while the Timby has 28.

That's a reasonable comparison imo, the timby goes a bit faster, but dies from 2 ST destructions. The clan weapons are lighter, but hotter. There are a few more factors but all in all, those 14 tons of handicap is what Quirks need to compensate for to achieve balance. In case of the Orion that won't help anyways though, because of hardpoint limitations/placement.

How is "dies in 2 ST destructions" any different from "no weapons left after 2 ST destructions"?
That's functionally the same - both mechs are out of combat.

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 04 May 2015 - 12:15 AM.

[Navid A1]

Onmyoudo, on 03 May 2015 - 11:29 PM, said:

1) It's considered OP because it's actually OP.
2) It's not considered OP (by some) because it has an array of weaknesses such as slow speed, easy to destroy side torsos prevent XL use, reliance on a single loadout on a single variant based entirely around quirks which could feasibly be changed on any given patch, and a false "effectiveness" that only makes it as good as it is due to the current metagame. The Timberwolf does not have any such limitations.
3) It's created by equipment potency.
4) The IS had more good units, and the mechanics of the invasion system are dumb.

TL;DR: No, you are not more skilled because you pilot a Timberwolf.

1) it is a good mech i agree. I was wondering why it is timbergod and not timby.
2) Quirks or not, i'm considering its current state and why it feels superior to a timby (in its own game...laser vomit). Also 6LL 4N does not need XL.
3) Thanks. But dual gauss phracts were the meta once... they've been put on tier 1. But now they are extinct...why? what changed?...JJs?
4) i did not meant the amount of skill in each faction... i meant the skill concentration.


Can you point to the part i said piloting a timby makes you a skilled pilot? I kinda feel the godpower more in a 4N or a zeus9S than in a timby or crow (timby/crow feel a bit fragile and and you have a feeling that your lasers do not do any serious damage...my feeling at least)

Tincan Nightmare, on 03 May 2015 - 11:50 PM, said:

So when the whole tier ranking came out, placing mechs in different brackets based on their performance, it was incorrect because the top tier mechs simply had the best pilot while the lower tier mechs had total noobs piloting them? Damn, I guess they should have left the T-bolt 9S with its powerful quirks for heat reduction, cooldown, and velocity, the only issue was that just good pilots were using it and the quirks didn't matter. Or evidently factors such as hardpoint quantity and location, hit box layout, agility and speed. I'm sure that the Stormcrow is a deadly mech in your hands, and would just be a wasted 55 ton bullet magnet if a 'normal' pilot were using it.

Now PGI must start balancing the game based on Epeen, yay!

nope... it was a correct move. but my point is still valid: skill always concentrates on the best possible option making it more than it was intended to be.
Balance... ever tried to balance a pencil on its tip? even a slight deviation towards one direction will make it fall.

I wonder why did they remove R&R?... like.. if you want better equipment... you got to look after it.

Edited by Navid A1, 04 May 2015 - 12:23 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

In my opinion, what makes Timberwolf great (like any other Clan mechs) is the Clan Omnipod system which lets it mount a big number of (laser) weaponries AND because it can mount Jump Jets.

Stormcrow is, again IMO, actually better designed because of its hardpoints location (higher up than the cockpit and they are more compact vertically, also 4 and 6 arm energy hardpoints) and because of higher speed. If only it could mount JJs then it would be better in everyway to a Timby except by having less armor.

[BigJim]

Navid A1, on 03 May 2015 - 10:42 PM, said:

1- Is the timby considered OP because it is actually OP or is it because there is a high concentration of skill in that chassis?

A lot of people are misunderstanding this language, and jumping in with comments assuming the OP meant just being in a timber makes you skilled, and then going on to rail against a false premise.

It means; - ...because the concentration of skill (players) migrates *to* the Timberwolf?



*EDIT* Oh, I'm a clanner now? Contracts, man...

Edited by BigJim, 04 May 2015 - 01:41 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Timby has the (second?) fewest disadvantages of any Clam chassis. It has Endo+Ferro, perhaps a tad overengined, but it allows it to fit many DHS inside, saving crit slots.

Worst construction aspect is likely Endo+Ferro crit placement, which is worked around pretty easily, such as not taking any ammo.

Gameplay wise...it used to have no high mounted (torso E mounts being best mid range options) but that changes with the A LT. It now has the highest concentration of high mounted E hardpoints on any Clam robot.



A nearly optimized Clam robot; very few of those. They are much better than the opposition, and it kinda defeats the purpose of the Clam tech limitations. Makes Blanket Nerfs make the unoptimised terrible Clams even worse.


The Stalker has 4 high mounted weapons, with 5.6 heat 585M range lasers. It can safely (limited ghost heat) alpha 4 for 36 damage (29 heat?), while exposing very little of the mech in a hull down position. That annoys many people. Timby can now lay claim to almost the same thing, at similar range, longer burn time, less damage with 2 LPLs ERML in the LT.
Previously, the Timby had to actually expose itself.


Both robots make decent use of the 40% damage (60% reduction) from ST to CT transfer after it's destroyed, I'd say the Stalker has the edge (smaller CT), but can't Sword and Board as many weapons.



As for the end result, it doesn't really matter which mech you use. 12 Competent players will make either robot look OP to a bunch of PUGs. That's what the majority of Tukkayid was; out of 47 matches, I believe it was (4) 8+ mans I faced. 43 PUG stomps VS 4 group opposed drops.
I'm not sure what other people faced (did Clans have more PUGs or groups than the IS?) but the event was mainly damage farming.

[Molossian Dog]

This particular legend has been in circulation since the clams were introduced.

It was stupid back then and it is stupid now.

[Yosharian]

The Timberwolf takes all the of the Clan's strengths and puts them in a solid hitbox.

To summarise:

1) cheap Endo + Ferro (note that Endo and Ferro cost less for clans than they do for IS)
2) big engine gives it good speed and maneuverability for a heavy
3) good hitboxes
4) relatively light equipment payload doesn't matter b/c clan laser vomit + mass heatsinks + mobility = good mech
5) Clan XL makes it tougher than most IS heavies

Edited by Yosharian, 04 May 2015 - 01:26 AM.

[kapusta11]

1. Timberwolf does not suffer from having bad hitboxes, being too big, being undergunned, lack of hardpoints, endo and ferro upgrades, locked useless equipment, undersized engine like other mechs and thus considered OP by community. In truth it's one of the few working tools among broken ones so it's not OP. Clan tech might be superior but it has nothing to do with particular chassis.

2. Stalker is not OP because due to Ghost Heat it needs to split its alpha in two shots unlike 2xLPL+2xERML, even with macro it's still 1.5 - 1.6 sec burn time for lasers. And it's way too slow. And only 4 hardpoints are high mounted. Personally I prefer Battlematers.

3. A bit of both things.

Edited by kapusta11, 04 May 2015 - 01:34 AM.

[Duke Nedo]

Juodas Varnas, on 04 May 2015 - 12:08 AM, said:

How is "dies in 2 ST destructions" any different from "no weapons left after 2 ST destructions"?
That's functionally the same - both mechs are out of combat.

Had I not written that someone would have pointed out that a STD engine gives more durability than a clan XL... you can't go right on internet forums.

[Juodas Varnas]

Duke Nedo, on 04 May 2015 - 01:55 AM, said:

Had I not written that someone would have pointed out that a STD engine gives more durability than a clan XL... you can't go right on internet forums.

I guess, i misunderstood you. I thought you were actually saying that STDs are somehow more durable than C-XLs.
It's only true in TT, where engine crits matter.

[Navid A1]

Thanks for the replies.
I guess i need to practice more in my timbies and crows then. Seems like i'm missing something.

My questions was because i could not replicate that so called god mode in neither the timby nor the crow. They run too hot and are fragile based on my experience:

I have 600 matches in the nova with a 2.61 KDR (99.99% pugs) 454 damage per match average.
Yet the stats for my crow is 2.14 KDR in 101 matches (99.99% pugs) 429 damage per match average.

Summoners: 500 matches with 2.15 KDR (99.99% pugs) 457 damage per match average
timbies: 130 matches with 2.1 KDR (99.99% pugs) 498 damage per match average

Edited by Navid A1, 04 May 2015 - 02:15 AM.

[Ace Selin]

Juodas Varnas, on 04 May 2015 - 12:08 AM, said:

How is "dies in 2 ST destructions" any different from "no weapons left after 2 ST destructions"?
That's functionally the same - both mechs are out of combat.

Do you really not get the difference?

The Orion can only carry 14 tons of weapons versus the Timberwolfs 28 tons, disregarding the Twolf is still faster also.
But to compete damage output wise with a Twolf people need to put an XL engine in the Orion, which again has a severe disadvantage in that the mech dies after losing one side torso, not to mention the Orion hardpoints arent great.

The Timberwolf has it all, speed, durability, versatility, JJ if required, great hard-points and a Clan XL engine.
The Timberwolf is actually too good a mech compared to all others in its class. The Stormcrow is in a similar position for medium mechs, just too good for its weight.

Edited by Ace Selin, 04 May 2015 - 02:17 AM.