43 replies to this topic

[Hunson Abadeer]

Raizo Nishizawa, on 04 July 2012 - 01:04 AM, said:

When FASA thought up of the original BT millieu back in the 80s, it was obviously a pack of gaijin putting it together half-blind, and it still shows in the names (i.e. "Hohiro" is near-impossible in Japanese namiing conventions) and misplaced cultural elements. It's not worth letting this get in the way of enjoying Mechwarrior Online, but think more than twice if you're striving for any sort of real-world authenticity.

The Draconis Combine is not ethnically pure, and it never has been. For example, the Commander of Kuritan forces in the 3025 TRO was General of the Army Vasily Cherenkoff. We are also talking about a thousand years of cultural developments. There must be some leeway in how some things are dealt with in light of such issues.

[Raizo Nishizawa]

Hunson Abadeer, on 04 July 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:

The Draconis Combine is not ethnically pure, and it never has been. For example, the Commander of Kuritan forces in the 3025 TRO was General of the Army Vasily Cherenkoff. We are also talking about a thousand years of cultural developments. There must be some leeway in how some things are dealt with in light of such issues.

I was around for BT when it first came out. I also remember when it was first imported into Japan where it made no headway; my familiarity with the setting extends for decades, so I'm aware the Draconis Combine is a heterogenous state. Even the canonical Black Dragon Society (a nod to the real-world ultranationalists) didn't cultivate in any serious measure real-world ultranationalism, which would have been terrible.

Development of the BT millieu came in bits and pieces from the mid-80s onward, which is fine. Star League sourcebook came several years after BT itself, and the basis for the BT universe before the Succession Wars was never covered in serious depth, so there's a blank. Well, this is a thousand years after the fact, everything changed. Apparently not that much, since FASA saw fit to give very specific ethnnocentric backgrounds to each of the Successor Houses (except Marik) and House Kurita retained the origin culture to significant length - language, architecture, military institutions.
　

Kyone Akashi, on 04 July 2012 - 05:54 AM, said:

I for one support the "relaxed" cultural milieu as it mixes a certain amount of respect for Japanese culture as the Combine's heart with a realistic amount of "evolutional blur" - and is much easier to get into and thus cultivate for non-Japanese players.

Duly noted, and very much inclined to agree. The DCMS needs bodies!

However the Kuritan backdrop draws heavily on what is tantamount to caricature. If you're aware this is caricature, have at it. If you're not and unaware, for instance, the Japanese characters in your sigbanner may not make sense, a double-take might be in your interest. If you're all about shooting PPCs and AC20s and don't care at all if Google Translate failed you or you're using language fit for a grandmother on Ventrilo, drive on.

Fact of the matter is drawing from what you think may be Japanese culture or language and applying it to your DCMS identity, you should not be surprised if it comes across completely garbled. If you're okay with that since "it's a thousand years into the future!" don't let that stop you.

The Combine still needs Mechwarriors.

Edited by Raizo Nishizawa, 07 August 2012 - 03:13 AM.

[Hunson Abadeer]

I too have been with BattleTech for a couple of decades. It is constructive to point out where things can be improved, but it does not help anyone to try to police people in what comes off as an aggressive manner rather than simply offering constructive criticism. FASA added cultural flavor to the Great Houses, and, as they did not have Google, it is safe to assume that they got a lot of things wrong. Again, constructive criticism should be welcome by all, but coming across as the angry PC police is counterproductive.

Let's move forward together in support of the Dragon.

Raizo Nishizawa, on 04 July 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

I've been with BT ever since it first came out. I was also around when it was first imported into Japan where it made no headway; my familiarity with the setting extends for decades, so I'm aware the Draconis Combine is a heterogenous state. Even the canonical Black Dragon Society (a nod to the real-world ultranationalists) didn't cultivate in any serious measure real-world ultranationalism, which would have been terrible.

Development of the BT millieu came in bits and pieces from the mid-80s onward, which is fine. Star League sourcebook came several years after BT itself, and the basis for the BT universe before the Succession Wars was never covered in serious depth, so there's a blank. Well, this is a thousand years after the fact, everything changed. Apparently not that much, since FASA saw fit to give very specific ethnnocentric backgrounds to each of the Successor States, and House Kurita retained the origin culture to significant length - language, architecture, military institutions.

[Kyone Akashi]

Raizo Nishizawa, on 04 July 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

Well, this is a thousand years after the fact, everything changed. Apparently not that much, since FASA saw fit to give very specific ethnnocentric backgrounds to each of the Successor States, and House Kurita retained the origin culture to significant length - language, architecture, military institutions.

And yet it is different, though. Obviouisly, the real reason was, as you said, the "gaijin perspective", a lot of cliché. Yet on the other hand this still is not unrealistic. The Draconis Combine is not ancient Japan - it tries hard to emulate it, and in some(?) instances it just fails at it. Lost knowledge and many centuries of cultural evolution probably make even native Kuritans as clueless as most of us are. Here's a thought: Perhaps the First Coordinator merely had access to sources just as flawed as FASA's take on the subject?

And this is not even taking into consideration potential side-effects of a merger with the cultures of the first planets that made up the Alliance of Galedon - the "Swedenese" language in the FRR is a good in-universe paradigm of what can happen when cultures clash, though our real world provides many such examples as well. Due to foreign influences (which also must have affected the Combine's infancy), contemporary Japanese culture is a far cry from what it was at the times of the Shogunate, and I think it might be naive to believe that it would be possible to simply "turn back the clock" and create a copy realm that fits the original culture to a 100%, especially as even this original culture was ever-changing from era to era in some small aspects (like with the role of the samurai). Vast populations are simply not that malleable, and even the Draconis Combine is in a state of flux when we look at Theodore Kurita's reforms.

Raizo Nishizawa, on 04 July 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

If you're aware this is caricature, have at it. If you're not and unaware, for instance, the Japanese characters in your sigbanner don't make sense, a double-take might be in your interest. If you're all about shooting PPCs and AC20s and don't care at all you're inadvertantly using language fit for a grandmother on Ventrilo, rock on.

This is interesting, now, considering that I took these characters directly from websites concerned with the Japanese language...

Examples:
http://www.linguanau...ese_sayings.htm
http://en.wikiquote....panese_proverbs
http://www.learnjapa...iomatic-phrases

I am certainly no stranger to the concept of individual websites and wikipedia being wrong about things, but I have only seen this form on several sites now. How exactly is it incorrect, if I may ask?

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 04 July 2012 - 12:05 PM.

[Raizo Nishizawa]

Hunson Abadeer, on 04 July 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:

but coming across as the angry PC police is counterproductive.

I'm bemused you think this is "angry PC police" because I haven't demanded you or anyone else execute anything. Simply:

If you were unaware of the possibility of being garbled, it's to your benefit to take a second look.
If you don't want to take a second look, understand your use of the language might be way off by real-world 21st century standards. Otherwise, just drive on.

Edited by Raizo Nishizawa, 04 July 2012 - 07:04 PM.

[Hunson Abadeer]

Kyone Akashi, on 04 July 2012 - 12:02 PM, said:

This is interesting, now, considering that I took these characters directly from websites concerned with the Japanese language...

Examples:
http://www.linguanau...ese_sayings.htm
http://en.wikiquote....panese_proverbs
http://www.learnjapa...iomatic-phrases

I am certainly no stranger to the concept of individual websites and wikipedia being wrong about things, but I have only seen this form on several sites now. How exactly is it incorrect, if I may ask?

A quick Google search also produced books with the same phrase appearing in them.

Let's all move forward for the Dragon.

[Hunson Abadeer]

The text to the left of my banner came from Japanese websites with only the subject being replaced in the last line. The text in the center of my banner is a Buddhist prayer, which I know from studying Buddhism. The text to the right is simply a phonetic spelling of my handle, which was also based on Japanese websites.

You certainly do not come across as simply offering friendly advice or constructive criticism.

Edited by Hunson Abadeer, 04 July 2012 - 06:21 PM.

[Raizo Nishizawa]

S-V-O doesn't always work with direct word replacement in Japanese.
This is going nowhere. This is not a personal attack. Continue to do what you want.

Edited by Raizo Nishizawa, 04 July 2012 - 12:25 PM.

[Hunson Abadeer]

The third line had "God" as its subject. That was only modified to "Dragon."

Again, constructive criticism is one thing. You are coming across in a decidedly unfriendly manner, however.

Raizo Nishizawa, on 04 July 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

S-V-O doesn't always work with direct word replacement, FYI.

This is going nowhere. Continue to do what you want.

[Zed Stun]

Not trying to be a troll here, but the English translation is a little funny. Technically, it translates into Dragon of the Voice because the noun modifier comes before the particle 'no' and the noun that is being modified comes after. If you want it to mean Voice of the Dragon, it should read Ryu No Koe.

竜の声

Koe No Ryu could also be translated as Dragon with the Voice, but I still don't think that is what you are going for here.

Edited by Zed Stun, 04 July 2012 - 12:43 PM.

[Lord Ikka]

The Japanese influence is clear in House Kurita, but it is not Japan, so variations in both language and culture are to be expected. Save the anger for our House's enemies, it only serves them if we get in flame wars with ourselves.

[Raizo Nishizawa]

Zed Stun, on 04 July 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

竜の声

龍 is old character for seals. 竜 is shorthand. Not sure if the Combine would have promulgated language reform, but this backstory conjecture is not important for gameplay.

Hunson Abadeer, on 04 July 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

Again, constructive criticism is one thing. You are coming across in a decidedly unfriendly manner, however.

I have left you a message explaining what is the matter with your sigbanner wording. You are free to not believe me. I have nothing personal against you. いや、マジで個人的な恨みないって。逆上されたってドンマイ、ドンマイ. I don't plan on bringing language issues up again here at all after this post. Pointless.

I don't want a fully 100% correct Japanese version of DCMS. I wish there were much less Japanese and more English, or reflection of other cultures in the Combine in heritage, words, dress, military institution, like the Arkab Legion.

The important thing is burning Davion mechs. Also, Voice of the Dragon is a very good concept and the OP should be applauded for his amazing effort. Nothing I said about Koe no Ryu being inverted is a knock on him. I hope he continues to expand on Combine backstory in-game.

Edited by Raizo Nishizawa, 04 July 2012 - 02:48 PM.

[SOGNeon]

Deep breaths everyone... We came to this thread seeking to learn more. Here are some who understand a bit more. Fasa did give the combine a Japanese theme, but whether through ignorance, or deliberately they are not true to real Japanese culture. We hold interest in many of the same things that inspired some member of the fasa staff to say "hey this is a cool culture"...

I personally study medieval japan and was earlier commenting to another member that I have been catching myself fighting what I know of that time period, and what I know has evolved in the modern day. it was for this reason that I have already scrapped two articles I was looking to post on culture (specifically japanese slang)... I realized two flaws with the concept first is that we have more than a thousand years of linguistic development between now and then, and to many of the resources I have for the slang article and such are quite outdated... some date back to the 80's others to the 90's... it would be tantamount to my trying to teach you 70's jive as being a logical extension to a game centered around hiphop culture... of course for that matter, if I went and dragged a couple 17 year old japanese nationals into the channel and said teach us slang (first off they would probably have some fun at our expense) second their current slang would be ~1035 years out of date in game terms... (not unlike the san/sama/dono issue which is only a few hundred years out of date)

yes FASA screwed up royally as most of our interpretations of foreign cultures have, this gives us an impetus to learn where they have it wrong, and where they got it right... but we should also remember that where it is cannon, even if wrong, that is a part of the universe we play, so we accept the error and learn that it is an error.

japanese is a language nearly as complex and convoluted as american english. many japanese living in japan have to keep a dictionary next to the chair so when they read the news paper they can find out what many of the kanji mean. (I found this out after I asked an acquaintance (who transfers over here from japan, on a regular basis as part of his job) what what some kanji meant pertaining to a kariginu (an article of clothing worn from some time around nara jindai up to the beginning of edo period, and is still worn as ceremonial garments during yabusame based ceremonies. while he recognized the garment as traditional clothing, he had no idea what the kanji meant. he was an engineer, why would he know of such things as historical garments, they were not his thing (not his reply, but the truth of the matter)

and for those trying to defend my choice of thread titles... thank you, but I agree with raizo from what I understand of the use of "no" in naming practices. though I took it third hand from a document citing "jihad turning points: luthien" a scenario pack set in the jyhad of the late 3060's still as that is from what my resources tell me the cannon for the name of the ISF propaganda ministry, I go with it.<G>

Ishikawa no Pesht would indicate not only that I am from Pesht, but that I was the feudal lord of Pesht, thus owner of it. so koe no ryu according to that convention says the voice owns the dragon, not the other way around... though when you consider that it is the propaganda ministry that is amusingly appropriate. (then again every time I think I understand a rule in japanese linguistics, I find there are exceptions that are 180deg from the perspective I thought I was gaining... and here I thought english was supposed to be the hardest language to learn with rules, exceptions, exceptions to exceptions, etc, etal, ad nauseum, add nausia<sorry old joke>)

Edited by SOGNeon, 04 July 2012 - 04:20 PM.

[SOGNeon]

Raizo Nishizawa, on 04 July 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

龍 is old character for seals. 竜 is shorthand. Not sure if the Combine would have promulgated language reform, but this backstory
<snip>

arbitrary single line of quotation attached to gain your attention raizo...

I will start by saying this. read all the way through my post before you allow yourself to get defensive.
I can see from your post count that you have not posted often, be this due to just joining the forums (I myself joined not long ago as we are nearing release date), or due to being a lurker (one who reads more than they post), but bonds are already forming between players here... you did come across aggressively, though I do not believe from what I read that this was the intent, but it did set several into defensive mode (myself included till I read every message a time or three)... that being said, I would love to have your continued commentary and knowledge shared in this thread. you do appear to share a flaw I of mine, in that it is easy for what is intended to be a sharing of knowledge ends up looking to some as a personal attack. I have joked with a close friend and mentor of mine that I stick my foot in my mouth so often I have become a connoisseur of culinary shoe leather. take for example the above commentary on kurita ranks. the information is taken directly from FMDC (color plates or page 19-20), and Battletech Compendium RoW (table on p96 next to the illustration of mechs advancing under water)... yet I received a couple PM's from folks who thought my pointing out a regiment has over a hundred members as being a personal attack against them forming this cannon based regiment or that cannon based regiment..., and while if someone where to ask my advice I would tell them to start the regiment as portraying a single unit within that regiment and "promote" as more members join and the unit grows, I am NOT one who can tell someone they can or can't do something, nor is anything I write intended as "this is the way it will be", however in this case, I fear things again have been misconstrued.

take your perceived conflict with hunsen for example... he has a good looking banner, and ir rightfully proud of it... over the course of discussing my telling him that I dig the kabuto art that is the centerpiece (he had previously posted it alone in another thread) and offering some constructive criticism, he built me 3 variations of the banner for my personal use. his own banner changed a couple times as he sought to refine it. it represents a reasonable bit of pride in his commitment to kurita, but also in his own efforts. i would get defensive about something like that too.

at any rate... I do not want this to look and feel like a lecture, which it is not intended as, so I am going to cut it short and skip to the readers digest version.

I hope everyone can allow this to be written off as miscommunications... we seem to have found two new members in riazo and zed who appear to have a fair knowledge of japanese language and culture... let us reserve judgement, and take advantage of a chance to learn more. we may just make a few new sword brothers along the way.

[Hunson Abadeer]

I am a historian by training, and I spent much of my graduate career writing about Feudal Japan and Japanese religion, but Japanese is an extremely complex language that I only have a little knowledge about. And why wouldn't it be complex? After all, it uses kanji as well as hiragana and katakana. Let's also not forget the various ways to read all of it as well. I have no problem with people pointing out mistakes, and that is especially true when they are not even my mistakes (taken from websites). I took offense, however, when it looked like it was Kyone being insulted, and my mood did not improve once it became clear that I was instead the target.

None of that matters, however. Raizo helped with the name part of my banner, and I went with a new quote from the Hagakure:

護生須是殺 - To preserve your life you must kill it.
殺尽始安居 - Kill it off completely, and you will be at peace for the first time.

It is all water under the bridge.
水に流す

[Hunson Abadeer]

I will say this, however: canon is more important than Japanese history, culture, etc. We will not be fighting for Toyotomi Hideyoshi. We will be fighting for the Dragon, and I doubt anyone would correct the Dragon's grammar.

[SOGNeon]

Hunson Abadeer, on 04 July 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

I will say this, however: canon is more important than Japanese history, culture, etc. We will not be fighting for Toyotomi Hideyoshi. We will be fighting for the Dragon, and I doubt anyone would correct the Dragon's grammar.

<LOL> as I said above. it is of value to us to know the difference.

fill in with what is correct where we do not have cannon reference, and portray the fictional culture when we do have cannon. but i doubt many would fight kurita if they did not have an interest in japanese culture.

I myself graduated from a passing interest in samurai (mostly taken from ignorant gaijin writings) as well as liking a couple anime, to wanting to actually learn about the real historic culture thanks to an otaku and fellow LARPer I was acquaintances with asking me to do some research on his behalf since he had no net access. researching the culture for him reminded me that I had an interest in it, and inspired me to learn more. now as I try to recruit local anime fans to form an anime fan club in my community, I also desire to encourage us take advantage of a common interest and turn off the TV for a while to sit down at a table and study the language like serious li'l students, not to mention learn other aspects of the culture... ikibana, cha-no-yu, writings and philosophy, religion, calligraphy, etc. in doing so we elevate ourselves above just being otaku, and instead become students of the culture.

if, however, the path to learning the culture where school, I would be a young grade schooler. there is just so much to learn.

Edited by SOGNeon, 04 July 2012 - 05:12 PM.

[Hunson Abadeer]

You can never learn enough. I have always loved Japanese history, and graduate school provided an opportunity to actually dive into the Sengoku-jidai. My primary concentration was Japanese religion and, specifically, the warrior monk tradition. Feudal Japan is an endless source of things to study, and it was my interest therein that made me a DCMS soldier from the start.

[Hunson Abadeer]

After discussing it with Raizo, the entire thing was a big misunderstanding, and he has helped me refine my signature more than once.

[Raizo Nishizawa]

I believe 謝罪 or apology is in order. First of all, for the Kentares reference which I have deleted just now. The canonical incident is an analogue of past real-world atrocities (i.e. Bataan, Nanjing) and it is in extremely bad taste to even hint at any sort of humor using it. To all those whose families have any relation to such events, I apologize to you for this crudeness.

My intention was to point out issues with Kurita-based Japanese in the BT universe which sound crazy to Japanese ears, but it ended up becoming pointless fight. This took away from OP's efforts. SOGNeon, I apologize to you for wasting space in your thread and for this needless dispute.

To Hunson Abadeer, it was not my intent to personally call you out and say your sigbanner was wrong, so I directed my criticism in general. This did not work the way it was intended. I apologize to you.

Kyone Akashi, I left a message with you stating there is nothing wrong with your sigbanner. I meant my criticism in a general sense. Dispute over lore is pointless. I apologize to you.

I believe that covers the people who have addressed me directly, and the foolishness about Kentares. I have no problems with canonical gaffes - what's done is done. I have no intent of degrading someone's playing experience for what undoubtedly many have been waiting for many, many years now over something as mundane as language. I have no intent of being a presence in this Forum and wish you a good playing experience and much success for the DCMS.