54 replies to this topic

[Dusk Raven]

Prosperity Park, on 04 May 2015 - 03:05 PM, said:

What the heck are you talking about?! The 4N has the same damn mounts as the other stalkers, just with gimped maneuverability and fewer overall hard points. They gave it massive quirks to make up for these stupid design choices.

Take a Stalker 3F and compare it to a 4N without quirks, them come back to the forums, okay?

Here's the problem, you can compare any 'mech to another variant of the same chassis and say HEY I DID A THING, but in all reality that's not how the game works as of right now, so that's not how someone should factor numbers at all being the nature of numbers and statistics. If you REALLY want to compare statistics, you must factor in all factors and not pick-and-choose which numbers you want to use. That's what gets you laughed out of most communities in general.

[FupDup]

Scraith Rukyr, on 04 May 2015 - 03:08 PM, said:

I don't disagree with that sentiment, but being able to trade with that much firepower while exposing a sliver of your mech is a little imbalanced, all that I propose is that two E hardpoints be moved lower on the mech so that you get more of an opportunity to trade with it and it can still poke with a decent amount of firepower with its current level of peek superiority.

The Stalker "explosion" only happened after the 4N got its quirks, really. The reasons it got those quirks:

1. Nobody ever used the 4N variant. NO ONE. I saw more Kintaros than 4N's.

2. Laser vomit shenanigans from the best Clan mechs made PGI give a few lucky mechs some superquirks to fight them.


Frankly, the only kind of nerf that I would tolerate for it would be to nudge down the quirks a bit...BUT then we would have to worry about it fading into obsolescence again. One idea might be to increase its engine cap to compensate for the quirk reduction...how does a 71kph Stalker sound to you? Perhaps use torso twist agility like the 3F variant has. Alternatively, bump up the missile quirks a bit to attempt to encourage a mixed loadout (12.5% missile cooldown is positively useless).

Maybe we could let it keep the heat reduction quirks, because the role of the 4N variant was SPECIFICALLY to be more heat efficient by removing an LRM launcher and replacing it with more heatsinks. The 4N having good endurance makes sense. Perhaps just bump the range down a few %'s, because the variant wasn't as good at long-range as other variants.


But whatever happens, certainly don't just hammer it down without some counter-buffs to keep it relevant in gameplay.

[Brizna]

As an experiment I would love for Stalkers and Warhawks to swap their geometries for a weekend. I'm pretty sure everybody would agree stalker 4N sucks and warhawk needs nerfing.

[FupDup]

Brizna, on 04 May 2015 - 03:16 PM, said:

As an experiment I would love for Stalkers and Warhawks to swap their geometries for a weekend. I'm pretty sure everybody would agree stalker 4N sucks and warhawk needs nerfing.

A Stalker with Clan LPL would do bad things to other people.

Horrible, unspeakable things.

[Aiden Skye]

As I nova pilot. I'd like to see big daddy.

The Supernova with it's 6 ER-Large

[FupDup]

W A R K H A N, on 04 May 2015 - 03:17 PM, said:

As I nova pilot. I'd like to see big daddy.

The Supernova with it's 6 ER-Large

on the bright side, you could actually manage its heat in MWO!

(It was a walking oven in BT).

Edited by FupDup, 04 May 2015 - 03:19 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Dusk Raven, on 04 May 2015 - 03:12 PM, said:

Here's the problem, you can compare any 'mech to another variant of the same chassis and say HEY I DID A THING, but in all reality that's not how the game works as of right now, so that's not how someone should factor numbers at all being the nature of numbers and statistics. If you REALLY want to compare statistics, you must factor in all factors and not pick-and-choose which numbers you want to use. That's what gets you laughed out of most communities in general.

You obviously didn't check the Mechlab, then, where all the factors are listed.

FACT: the hardpoint distribution of the stalker 4N is already mirrored by other stalkers with more maneuverability.

FACT: the stalker 4N has no redeeming features to compensate for this lack of maneuverability.

So, PGI gave it huge quirks. Otherwise it is cometely eclipsed by other stalker variants that out perform it. There is no reason to have the 4N in the game, really.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 04 May 2015 - 03:19 PM.

[Scraith Rukyr]

FupDup, on 04 May 2015 - 03:15 PM, said:

The Stalker "explosion" only happened after the 4N got its quirks, really. The reasons it got those quirks:

1. Nobody ever used the 4N variant. NO ONE. I saw more Kintaros than 4N's.

2. Laser vomit shenanigans from the best Clan mechs made PGI give a few lucky mechs some superquirks to fight them.


Frankly, the only kind of nerf that I would tolerate for it would be to nudge down the quirks a bit...BUT then we would have to worry about it fading into obsolescence again. One idea might be to increase its engine cap to compensate for the quirk reduction...how does a 71kph Stalker sound to you? Perhaps use torso twist agility like the 3F variant has. Alternatively, bump up the missile quirks a bit to attempt to encourage a mixed loadout (12.5% missile cooldown is positively useless).

Maybe we could let it keep the heat reduction quirks, because the role of the 4N variant was SPECIFICALLY to be more heat efficient by removing an LRM launcher and replacing it with more heatsinks. The 4N having good endurance makes sense. Perhaps just bump the range down a few %'s, because the variant wasn't as good at long-range as other variants.


But whatever happens, certainly don't just hammer it down without some counter-buffs to keep it relevant in gameplay.

That is a fair point.

[Sjorpha]

It doesn't need fixing, there is no problem with it.

[Dusk Raven]

R Razor, on 04 May 2015 - 03:09 PM, said:

Responses in your quote.

Well, let's see. The ThunderWub (TDR-5SS with MPLs) can be factored like this.
220m+(220*.5)[quirks]=330m Effective Range.
This doesn't include the maximum range, which is 440m base which comes out to 660m maximum range.
You can mount 7 Medium Pulse Lasers on the TDR-5SS which is 6 damage per, which comes out to 42 damage per alpha with 28 heat generation. This with heatsinks (9 heatsinks with a STD300 engine, which allows it to move at 82.2kph with speed tweak) will come out to the skill of the player to ride the heat curve. You can get about 3 to 4 alpha strikes consecutively without overheating. So not only is this a good brawling 'mech, most of the damage comes from the torsi which allows for the use of rolling damage with your left side. This is with maximum armor, so unless you're facetanking a direwolf to the CT, you'll more than likely have enough time to roll the damage.

Telling someone to deal with an unbalanced thing in a video game is like trying to tell someone to deal with terrible game design, oh wait. That's what unbalanced things are in purely competitive games.

The only thing you have to say about the Grid Iron AND Firestarter arguments is "SO?"? Well, how about an actual argument instead of acting like we're in the 3rd grade, please.

No, there is no substituting netcode with anything else. If you want to talk lag shields, then you're talking netcode or someone else's terrible latency, which the developers can't fix the latter. They certainly can fix the former. If you want to start talking connection issues, you might want to troubleshoot your router, talk about netcode or the state of the online servers. Not a specific weight class in general.

[Dusk Raven]

Prosperity Park, on 04 May 2015 - 03:19 PM, said:

You obviously didn't check the Mechlab, then, where all the factors are listed.

FACT: the hardpoint distribution of the stalker 4N is already mirrored by other stalkers with more maneuverability.

FACT: the stalker 4N has no redeeming features to compensate for this lack of maneuverability.

So, PGI gave it huge quirks. Otherwise it is cometely eclipsed by other stalker variants that out perform it. There is no reason to have the 4N in the game, really.

FACT: Trying to calculate statistics without 100% of factors is a good way to flunk your math classes.

No, seriously. There's no actual reason why in a game of comparing numbers to each other that there should be any reason why should not factor in every single number that matters to the outcome of the total product.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Since the TBR-A Left Torso was mentioned, I didn't like seeing all three up high.

I would have rather seen two up and one fill in where the TBR-Prime LT has it's one energy slot:

[R Razor]

Dusk Raven, on 04 May 2015 - 03:26 PM, said:

Well, let's see. The ThunderWub (TDR-5SS with MPLs) can be factored like this.
220m+(220*.5)[quirks]=330m Effective Range.
This doesn't include the maximum range, which is 440m base which comes out to 660m maximum range.
You can mount 7 Medium Pulse Lasers on the TDR-5SS which is 6 damage per, which comes out to 42 damage per alpha with 28 heat generation. This with heatsinks (9 heatsinks with a STD300 engine, which allows it to move at 82.2kph with speed tweak) will come out to the skill of the player to ride the heat curve. You can get about 3 to 4 alpha strikes consecutively without overheating. So not only is this a good brawling 'mech, most of the damage comes from the torsi which allows for the use of rolling damage with your left side. This is with maximum armor, so unless you're facetanking a direwolf to the CT, you'll more than likely have enough time to roll the damage.

Telling someone to deal with an unbalanced thing in a video game is like trying to tell someone to deal with terrible game design, oh wait. That's what unbalanced things are in purely competitive games.

The only thing you have to say about the Grid Iron AND Firestarter arguments is "SO?"? Well, how about an actual argument instead of acting like we're in the 3rd grade, please.

No, there is no substituting netcode with anything else. If you want to talk lag shields, then you're talking netcode or someone else's terrible latency, which the developers can't fix the latter. They certainly can fix the former. If you want to start talking connection issues, you might want to troubleshoot your router, talk about netcode or the state of the online servers. Not a specific weight class in general.

As a player that plays solely IS I laugh at your pathetic "telling someone to deal with unbalanced game play" crack when I've been fighting the holy trinity since they came out. Take that garbage elsewhere, not going to get any traction here.

As for your "Zomg math skillz"......again I refer you to the holy trinity and the crap load of output they have.......and raise you with the fact that the only clan mechs you see are generally one of the holy trinity..........so again, no traction, take it elsewhere.

Yes, SO is all I have to say.........if I can learn to stomach playing against never miss Streakcrows and take more damage than an Atlas to kill Timbercrutches then you can damned sure learn to stomach a Gauss rifle equipped medium. The same goes for the Firestarter.....plenty of people have no trouble killing them even with the lag shield, so yeah.............SO?

Edited by R Razor, 04 May 2015 - 03:36 PM.

[Livewyr]

So here you are, R Razor.. you seemed to disappear from the other thread after being called out for implying that IS/Clan is more balanced than you would like to admit...

[R Razor]

Livewyr, on 04 May 2015 - 03:39 PM, said:

So here you are, R Razor.. you seemed to disappear from the other thread after being called out for implying that IS/Clan is more balanced than you would like to admit...

Link me to the thread I "disappeared" from.........more likely your lack of intellect bored me and I lost interest but I'll play.

And the statistics bear out my belief that there are clan mechs that are in dire need of downward balancing........I know you love your crutches and can't stand hearing that since without them you would probably be a below average player at best........but them's the brakes kid.

Edited by R Razor, 04 May 2015 - 03:45 PM.

[LORD TSARKON]

Find.... Nerf the Stalker 4N.... but then NO one in the game gets to use consumables.... except for the Stalker 4N... because its one of the very Few Mechs in the Game that came with Stock Command Console... 3 tons of crap in MWO... but effectively the only piece of equipment that Mech Commanders need to dish out multiple Artillery and Airstrikes...

Imagine a CW game where only the Commander can do Consumable Artillery and Airstrikes....

[Dusk Raven]

R Razor, on 04 May 2015 - 03:34 PM, said:

As a player that plays solely IS I laugh at your pathetic "telling someone to deal with unbalanced game play" crack when I've been fighting the holy trinity since they came out. Take that garbage elsewhere, not going to get any traction here.

As for your "Zomg math skillz"......again I refer you to the holy trinity and the crap load of output they have.......and raise you with the fact that the only clan mechs you see are generally one of the holy trinity..........so again, no traction, take it elsewhere.

I agree, there is little traction in the air which my information flies, which happens to be space above your head since "holy trinities" don't really exist when you're talking about frequently balanced games such as this one. There will always be something better than the "holy trinity" and there's no logical way to deny it.
Also, that's frankly pretty sad that you play "solely IS" and you're talking about the "Holy Trinity" since the Hellbringer has become recently more popular than the Timberwolf, and for good reason. I'm not going to waste my time trying to calculate legitimate math to you since you're really not a numbers guy. (By the way, that wasn't ZOMG math skills, that's just simple percentage factoring, which is commonplace everywhere.). If you don't play Clans, then why even praise them how they are if you don't even use them. Why not go and buy a dire wolf and come back and tell us how easy it is to pilot.
SPOILER ALERT: It's not.

[R Razor]

Dusk Raven, on 04 May 2015 - 03:44 PM, said:

I agree, there is little traction in the air which my information flies, which happens to be space above your head since "holy trinities" don't really exist when you're talking about frequently balanced games such as this one. There will always be something better than the "holy trinity" and there's no logical way to deny it.
Also, that's frankly pretty sad that you play "solely IS" and you're talking about the "Holy Trinity" since the Hellbringer has become recently more popular than the Timberwolf, and for good reason. I'm not going to waste my time trying to calculate legitimate math to you since you're really not a numbers guy. (By the way, that wasn't ZOMG math skills, that's just simple percentage factoring, which is commonplace everywhere.). If you don't play Clans, then why even praise them how they are if you don't even use them. Why not go and buy a dire wolf and come back and tell us how easy it is to pilot.
SPOILER ALERT: It's not.

Because, as I have stated repeatedly, I will not spend the time to earn the C-Bills or a penny of real money just to jump on the clan jockstrap (all the while claiming I've been a Clan Fan since Table Top as most clanners do) just to gain an advantage.........and yes, the Holy Trinity.........the same 3 mechs that are the acknowledged TOP OF THEIR CLASS respectively...........the only reason you see Hellbringers is because of the Jesus Box...........and there's no traction because you have no leg to stand on so you try to argue by "baffling them with ********" and that won't work with me.

Let me save you some time........your next post will claim that Clan mechs only seem better because they have better pilots...........and failing that, you'll say it's because Clan players work better together as a team than IS players........

[Nothing Whatsoever]

LORD TSARKON, on 04 May 2015 - 03:43 PM, said:

Find.... Nerf the Stalker 4N.... but then NO one in the game gets to use consumables.... except for the Stalker 4N... because its one of the very Few Mechs in the Game that came with Stock Command Console... 3 tons of crap in MWO... but effectively the only piece of equipment that Mech Commanders need to dish out multiple Artillery and Airstrikes...

Imagine a CW game where only the Commander can do Consumable Artillery and Airstrikes....

That's fine by me to give the CC a better use.

Another piece of equipment to consider is needing to mount TAG on a mech to make use of strikes, and if it keeps it light beam than I'd set a new TAG hardpoint so that it doesn't have to occupy an Energy Hardpoint and allow mechs like the CPLT-A1 and Huginn to just name two, the capacity to bring TAG.

Edit: opps, forgot to mention that CC comes on the D-DC not the 4N, but the 4N can mount a CC.

Edited by Praetor Knight, 04 May 2015 - 03:53 PM.

[Ultimax]

Scraith Rukyr, on 04 May 2015 - 03:08 PM, said:

I don't disagree with that sentiment, but being able to trade with that much firepower while

"That much firepower" = 36 points of laser damage. Woopdie freaking do.