54 replies to this topic

[Dusk Raven]

R Razor, on 04 May 2015 - 03:50 PM, said:

Because, as I have stated repeatedly, I will not spend the time to earn the C-Bills or a penny of real money just to jump on the clan jockstrap (all the while claiming I've been a Clan Fan since Table Top as most clanners do) just to gain an advantage.........and yes, the Holy Trinity.........the same 3 mechs that are the acknowledged TOP OF THEIR CLASS respectively...........the only reason you see Hellbringers is because of the Jesus Box...........and there's no traction because you have no leg to stand on so you try to argue by "baffling them with ********" and that won't work with me.

Let me save you some time........your next post will claim that Clan mechs only seem better because they have better pilots...........and failing that, you'll say it's because Clan players work better together as a team than IS players........

WOW ARE YOU A MIND READER?

Actually no. I was going to say that you claim that "my statements have no traction" or "I have no leg to stand on" on the fact that I have presented legitimate math and actual information. All you've basically said for the last few posts is, "NOPE. NUH UH. YOU'RE WRONG. YOU'RE STUPID."
How about we do a quick role reversal: You present your facts and legitimate information and I'll act like I'm in the third grade.

Edited by Dusk Raven, 04 May 2015 - 03:56 PM.

[R Razor]

Dusk Raven, on 04 May 2015 - 03:55 PM, said:

WOW ARE YOU A MIND READER?

Actually no. I was going to say that you claim that "my statements have no traction" or "I have no leg to stand on" on the fact that I have presented legitimate math and actual information. All you've basically said for the last few posts is, "NOPE. NUH UH. YOU'RE WRONG. YOU'RE STUPID." How about we do a quick role reversal: You present your facts and legitimate information and I'll act like I'm in the third grade.

Pretty sure I never said you were stupid.........did say you were wrong, well, because you are wrong.........just from a quick glance at your math I think you're off........I believe the range with quirks is 352 but would have to jump into it and play a game to know for sure..........so yeah. (Just checked, with MPL range 5 mod the 5SS has a range of 352 meters before drop off begins)

My facts were presented over and over by the developers when they released the stats back before the Turkeyday event.....clan crutch mechs won more than 50% of every battle they fought in.......(think it was 53% but may be been up or down a percentage).........in a truly balanced game that would not happen.......there's some math for ya.

The fact that you can try to claim the Hellbringer is better than the Timberwolf (as evidenced by your statement that it's being used more) is laughable at best (maybe I should have called you stupid).........wasn't it one of the lead developers, think his name was Duss, or Tuss, or Russ or something along those lines...that said he was aware that the Timber was the class of the field and he had no intention of changing it?

So yeah, there are some facts and legitimate information for ya. Enjoy.


At the end of the day, the 4N doesn't need to be touched before the Timbercrutch and Stormcrow get their balance passes.......to claim otherwise merely shows your bias.

Edited by R Razor, 04 May 2015 - 04:05 PM.

[Dusk Raven]

R Razor, on 04 May 2015 - 03:59 PM, said:

Pretty sure I never said you were stupid.........did say you were wrong, well, because you are wrong.........just from a quick glance at your math I think you're off........I believe the range with quirks is 352 but would have to jump into it and play a game to know for sure..........so yeah.

My facts were presented over and over by the developers when they released the stats back before the Turkeyday event.....clan crutch mechs won more than 50% of every battle they fought in.......(think it was 53% but may be been up or down a percentage).........in a truly balanced game that would not happen.......there's some math for ya.

The fact that you can try to claim the Hellbringer is better than the Timberwolf (as evidenced by your statement that it's being used more) is laughable at best (maybe I should have called you stupid).........wasn't it one of the lead developers, think his name was Duss, or Tuss, or Russ or something along those lines...that said he was aware that the Timber was the class of the field and he had no intention of changing it?

So yeah, there are some facts and legitimate information for ya. Enjoy.

Huh, let's see. You disregard a key work in a sentence, which would be the word: "Basically" which means: serving as, or being an essential part of a foundation or basis. You fundamentally stated that my information is wrong, and then you throw a whack number, "352" without actually trying to double check yourself if you're correct or not with the statistics and numbers or even try to prove yourself and you're right under the sole fact that you said so so therefore you are correct. No, that's not how an argument works and maybe you should revise on what being in an argument means.
You try to say that my math is off, when you seem to have no idea what you're talking about, which is the fact that a 3% difference in balance is actually balanced. If it were a number like 10% or 12% I'd say, "Yeah, you might have a point" but 3% is actually within a threshold of, "Well, you really don't know what balance is then, do you?"

Now it's my turn for the role reversal: "your wrong....................your stupid................SO?........................................... Irefer to the developers without knowing their name or presenting evidence that they even said such a thing...............................................................3% is a major difference in balance..............................................................................................................................holy trinity...........................................................solely IS player................................................................................vkjdabvajlbval"

Edited by Dusk Raven, 04 May 2015 - 04:13 PM.

[R Razor]

Dusk Raven, on 04 May 2015 - 04:11 PM, said:

Huh, let's see. You disregard a key work in a sentence, which would be the word: "Basically" which means: serving as, or being an essential part of a foundation or basis. You fundamentally stated that my information is wrong, and then you throw a whack number, "352" without actually trying to double check yourself if you're correct or not with the statistics and numbers or even try to prove yourself and you're right under the sole fact that you said so so therefore you are correct. No, that's not how an argument works and maybe you should revise on what being in an argument means.
You try to say that my math is off, when you seem to have no idea what you're talking about, which is the fact that a 3% difference in balance is actually balanced. If it were a number like 10% or 12% I'd say, "Yeah, you might have a point" but 3% is actually within a threshold of, "Well, you really don't know what balance is then, do you?"

Now it's my turn for the role reversal: "your wrong....................your stupid................SO?........................................... Irefer to the developers without knowing their name or presenting evidence that they even said such a thing...............................................................3% is a major difference in balance..............................................................................................................................holy trinity...........................................................solely IS player................................................................................vkjdabvajlbval"

As I said, you are wrong, it is in fact 352, ( you know, going from memory so prefer to err on the side of caution since people like you would jump on the "how wrong you are bandwagon" if I was off by a meter or two........as opposed to the 88 meters you were off mind you) were you capable of forming a coherent thought and putting it down through the use of a keyboard in less than 20 minutes (do the keys on your keyboard have Stormcrow Hitboxes??) you'd have seen the edit that took place 8 minutes ago.............as to the rest of your nonsense.......you merely continue to prove my point for me regarding your ability to make intelligent comments. And a 3% difference "may" be considered balanced IF it wasn't consistently 3% in favor of one side........so again, there's that whole "stupid" thing you brought up earlier. And while we're talking about lack of intelligence........it's YOU'RE when you're making a statement such as "you're stupid"......

Edited to add: Feel free to get the last word in, maybe one of your buddies that has become a fan of mine will help you out with the proper punctuation and the ability to read sarcasm a little better. (How many people do you know named Duss or Tuss anyway?). At any rate, you've done a better job of making my point than I could have done on my own, so thanks for that. See ya on the battlefield.

Edited by R Razor, 04 May 2015 - 04:26 PM.

[Tyras]

Don't see a need to "fix" it when clan mechs can do comparable damage at comparable ranges at lower tonnage. If it were such an issue of balance we'd have seen it tip the scales in the Battle of Tukayyid. That wasn't the case though was it?

[Dusk Raven]

R Razor, on 04 May 2015 - 04:14 PM, said:

As I said, you are wrong, it is in fact 352, ( you know, going from memory so prefer to err on the side of caution since people like you would jump on the "how wrong you are bandwagon" if I was off by a meter or two........as opposed to the 88 meters you were off mind you) were you capable of forming a coherent thought and putting it down through the use of a keyboard in less than 20 minutes (do the keys on your keyboard have Stormcrow Hitboxes??) you'd have seen the edit that took place 8 minutes ago.............as to the rest of your nonsense.......you merely continue to prove my point for me regarding your ability to make intelligent comments. And a 3% difference "may" be considered balanced IF it wasn't consistently 3% in favor of one side........so again, there's that whole "stupid" thing you brought up earlier. And while we're talking about lack of intelligence........it's YOU'RE when you're making a statement such as "you're stupid"......

Oh look at you, you know grammar when it comes to contractions. Isn't that cute? I think I specifically said at that point I would be performing my side of the argument as a 3rd grader, but I think that slipped by the frictionless surface that I can't have traction to because you're so thick that information can't worm it's way inside any more. Maybe that's why I'm "wrong" in your eyes, because you have your head shoved up your a** so far that you're in danger of choking on your own head.

Edited by Dusk Raven, 04 May 2015 - 04:25 PM.

[LORD TSARKON]

Praetor Knight, on 04 May 2015 - 03:52 PM, said:

That's fine by me to give the CC a better use.

Another piece of equipment to consider is needing to mount TAG on a mech to make use of strikes, and if it keeps it light beam than I'd set a new TAG hardpoint so that it doesn't have to occupy an Energy Hardpoint and allow mechs like the CPLT-A1 and Huginn to just name two, the capacity to bring TAG.

Edit: opps, forgot to mention that CC comes on the D-DC not the 4N, but the 4N can mount a CC.

Yah I just checked and you are correct sir. I thought because of how nerfed the 4N was it was because of the Command Console...

I checked SArna for Stalkers and I found this about 4N

STK-4N

A modification of the Stalker introduced in 2876 which sought to increase its heat efficiency, the 4N model removes one of the LRM-10 launchers and adds six heat sinks to the design. These make theStalker more heat efficient but also make the 'Mech weaker when engaging an enemy at long range. ____________________________________________________________________________


Then I read below that and I FOUND this!! My favorite Mech in the game is the Misery... I had no idea it was named after the Battle(Planet) of Misery after the Famous stalker Pilot J. Elliot Jamison.

• J. Elliot Jamison, commander of Wolf's Dragoons' Zeta Battalion piloted a Stalker for most of his career, serving with distinction during the Battle of Misery and the Fourth Succession War
  

STK-3F Stalker Jamison


This variant is the personal 'Mech of J. Elliot Jamison, commander of Wolf's Dragoons' Zeta Battalion, and was built in 3054 as a Clan-tech version of the venerable STK-3F. The large lasers were replaced with Large Pulse Laser, the medium lasers upgraded to ER Medium Lasers, and a pair of LRM-20s are used instead of the original's ten-tube launchers. Rounding out the weapons array, two ammo-efficient Streak SRM-6s are used. Eighteen Clan-spec double heat sinks are mounted to help control the heat load. Finally, Ferro-Fibrous Armor is used to protect this dangerous BattleMech_____________________________________________________________________________

There you go... in 3054... Inner Sphere was using Clan Double Heatsinks... which would be SICK on ANY Stalker Chassis.. Can't wait for PGI to try to Quirk that **** LOLOL

Edited by LORD TSARKON, 04 May 2015 - 05:00 PM.

[Auren]

Tyras, on 04 May 2015 - 04:19 PM, said:

Don't see a need to "fix" it when clan mechs can do comparable damage at comparable ranges at lower tonnage. If it were such an issue of balance we'd have seen it tip the scales in the Battle of Tukayyid. That wasn't the case though was it?

It certainly wasn't the superiority of clan mechs either. Here's why Clans "won" Tukayyid.

• Best IS Units were EU Prime Time. (3pm->9pm EST)
  
• Best Clan Units were US Prime Time. (6pm ->12am EST)
  
• Due to the way CW Matchmaking works, IS drops did not consist of primarily full units but 5-6 + PUGs versus full drops. Conversely, in EU prime time, Clans were in the same situation.
  
• I.S. didn't have time to cement enough of a lead to survive the morning clan attacks.
  
• Finally, only the last sixty three CW matches for Tukayyid mattered

There are two weapons that are remotely comparable to their I.S. equivalents; The Gauss Rifle and ER Medium Laser. Everything else is decidedly inferior. Its to the point where if I could strap I.S. guns to Clan Mechs, I would.

Also, Prosperity Park; the only Stalker that is more agile in terms of base chassis then the Stalker 4N is the Misery. No other Stalker variant comes with agility perks of any sort. This is also countered by the fact that the meta build for the 4N is a STD300 with 6LLs. And as we all know, larger engines means better torso turn rate.

Edited by Auren, 04 May 2015 - 05:04 PM.

[Livewyr]

I'm pretty sure you'll recall this, Razor:

I said I wanted IS quirked weapons and heat reduction tech for my clan mechs.

You missed the point and demanded clan XL and other tech in exchange..
then I explained to you that your demand implied that adding IS tech to clan mechs would be a buff, and therefore, the clans were not totally OP. "How does one buff a superior mech, with 'inferior' tech?"

And you disappeared.

[bad arcade kitty]

to nerf its quirks

[lsp]

There's nothing wrong with it.

[bobobobobiy]

Auren, on 04 May 2015 - 05:03 PM, said:

It certainly wasn't the superiority of clan mechs either. Here's why Clans "won" Tukayyid.

• Best IS Units were EU Prime Time. (3pm->9pm EST)
  
• Best Clan Units were US Prime Time. (6pm ->12am EST)
  
• Due to the way CW Matchmaking works, IS drops did not consist of primarily full units but 5-6 + PUGs versus full drops. Conversely, in EU prime time, Clans were in the same situation.
  
• I.S. didn't have time to cement enough of a lead to survive the morning clan attacks.
  
• Finally, only the last sixty three CW matches for Tukayyid mattered

There are two weapons that are remotely comparable to their I.S. equivalents; The Gauss Rifle and ER Medium Laser. Everything else is decidedly inferior. Its to the point where if I could strap I.S. guns to Clan Mechs, I would.

Also, Prosperity Park; the only Stalker that is more agile in terms of base chassis then the Stalker 4N is the Misery. No other Stalker variant comes with agility perks of any sort. This is also countered by the fact that the meta build for the 4N is a STD300 with 6LLs. And as we all know, larger engines means better torso turn rate.

Just my opinion, but I think the clan small laser is sorta comparable to the IS medium laser, and with half a ton free, two of those lets you put another 2 slot heatsink in.
SRM's, I'm pretty sure weigh less (feel free to correct me).
LRM's... well LRM's aren't that good either way, but I prefer clan ones due to the longer duration of screen shake and no minimum range. Plus, they weigh much less.
BAP's are decidedly better.
Autocannons perform worse, but weigh less.
The clan LPL seems like an all around better alternate to the IS ER large.
Ferro and Endo take up less space.

Pretty sure I'm missing something about cooldown times, but eh...

I don't think any clan tech is "decidedly" inferior, but then you take quirks into account, and weapons are sorta comparable. I think it's the fact that clans have omnis that I prefer them to IS mechs.

And guys, please keep it civil. Don't result to personal attacks. Let's keep everything objective with a sprinkle of subjective.

[Sir Wulfrick]

The Stalker 4N does not need to be nerfed. There are plenty of both IS and Clan mechs that ought to be brought up to roughly the same level of effectiveness, but the 4N is not intrinsically grossly over powered. By almost direct comparison the 4 x LPL warhawk is comparable, though it trades the superior hard point locations of the 4N for superior speed and agility.

Also by comparison, and I have used both extensively, the Timberwolf-A makes the 4N feel like I'm doing it wrong. I don't believe that the Timberwolf requires much of a nerf, if any, and nor does the 4N.

Edited by Sir Wulfrick, 04 May 2015 - 05:19 PM.

[Bloody]

FupDup, on 04 May 2015 - 03:03 PM, said:

The Stalker's "problem" is that it's well-designed instead of being designed like trash as many mechs are.

It doesn't have low tonnage, it doesn't have crappy hardpoints, it doesn't have bad hitboxes, and it doesn't have a crappy engine cap for its class. It's just an all-around good mech.

If it's not intentionally ultragimped in a specific area then clearly it's broken amirite?


Also note that the 4N variant was pretty much absent from play at every single level of the same and never used by ANYONE ever. Even Commandos and Kintaros can be seen every now and then, but a pre-quirk Stalker 4N was pretty much 100% extinct.

Yup, its problem is that is is how a meta mech should be built. So many other mechs with their low slung hit boxes or more precisely arms etc are rubbish, completely ******* RUBBISH. Sure they are Lore and fun to run around with in puglandia but really you have to be just another paycheck scrounger working in PGI to think they are viable in a meta.

[Auren]

bobobobobiy, on 04 May 2015 - 05:16 PM, said:

I don't think any clan tech is "decidedly" inferior, but then you take quirks into account, and weapons are sorta comparable. I think it's the fact that clans have omnis that I prefer them to IS mechs.
Just my opinion, but I think the clan small laser is sorta comparable to the IS medium laser, and with half a ton free, two of those lets you put another 2 slot heatsink in.
SRM's, I'm pretty sure weigh less (feel free to correct me).
LRM's... well LRM's aren't that good either way, but I prefer clan ones due to the longer duration of screen shake and no minimum range. Plus, they weigh much less.
BAP's are decidedly better.
Autocannons perform worse, but weigh less.
The clan LPL seems like an all around better alternate to the IS ER large.
Ferro and Endo take up less space

I forgot about XL/Endo/Ferro but 9/10, the weight savings of Ferro are not worth losing 7 slots. I.S. bap is a half ton heavier with 1 crit more, IIRC. Anyways, moving onto why Clan guns as a whole are kinda awful compared to I.S.

ER Small Lasers have a GHost heat of 6? IIRC. Also a bit more then half the range of standard IS. A bit better heat generation BUT the same duration.
SRMs weigh half as much as I.S. SRMs and occupy one crit less. HOWEVER, they have a higher spread and do less damage then I.S. SRMs. Also a longer cool down.
LRMs do their full damage at 90m or more but do .1 damage if you're hugging someone. They are also far more vulnerable to AMS then I.S. LRMs.
Autocannons are objectively worse. No Clan AC has one shot for 20 damage, its all burst fire. The LB-10X is bad because the devs screwed up LBX autocannons, and they weigh a ton less then their I.S. equivilent. But burst fire.
Clan LPLs have a bit better damage, same duration, weigh a ton more, and worse heat efficency then I.S. LLs

Edited by Auren, 04 May 2015 - 06:44 PM.