260 replies to this topic

[G-LOC]

Dump the charge, raise the recycle time then happy days all round.

[Hit the Deck]

G-LOC, on 06 May 2015 - 12:37 AM, said:

Dump the charge, raise the recycle time then happy days all round.

Although I asked the OP to propose for a DPS reduction, I personally do not agree with this nerf. Gauss is already worse than AC/10 and is actually on par with AC/5 DPS-wise.

[Widowmaker1981]

Johnny Z, on 05 May 2015 - 12:04 PM, said:

Thats the point of this topic. The charge up isnt doing what it was added for. Its not having any effect for "some" players and only effects legit players. Making one of the best ballistics for program assited(not saying aim bot for sure but i would bet on a macro which is a program assist) players only? Isnt the way.

Just FYI, using a macro to fire Gauss is BAD. NOT good.

If you fire manually you have a window (about 1s? not sure) when you can release your shot, i.e. you can choose the correct moment to fire, or choose not to fire and save the ammo. With a macro it fires exactly 0.8s after you click, regardless of whether you can even still see the target. Macros are only better if you are incapable of remembering to let go of a button.

And if they removed the charge from the Gauss? Id never drive a mech that couldnt mount one, would be stupid OP.

[General Solo]

The OP's light mech got one shot by guass, he wants them nerfed so can brush them off like lasers and dodge them like PPC's.

I think a 100Ton mech should be able to 1 shot a 25ton mech.

And twin guass rifles are one of the few weapons that can do the job reliability against small lag shielded lights.
But you need some skill to land those shots, which is not a crime.
Plus you pay 24 to 30 tons for the privileged without ammo.

In BT the only weapons with a longer range than a guass were clan Ultra/Lbx 2 and 5's, IS AC2, ER PPC's and Clan ER Large laser, so Yes guass rifles are the BT mech sniper rifle. Think .50cal sniper.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Widowmaker1981, on 06 May 2015 - 12:54 AM, said:

Just FYI, using a macro to fire Gauss is BAD. NOT good.

If you fire manually you have a window (about 1s? not sure) when you can release your shot, i.e. you can choose the correct moment to fire, or choose not to fire and save the ammo. With a macro it fires exactly 0.8s after you click, regardless of whether you can even still see the target. Macros are only better if you are incapable of remembering to let go of a button.

And if they removed the charge from the Gauss? Id never drive a mech that couldnt mount one, would be stupid OP.

Why does everyone keep assuming that it if the charge is removed that no other changes will be made to balance it? An increase in CD would make it far from OP, its projectile velocity can be reduced to balance it alongside other ballistics, as well as other options such as increased heat generation or even lowering ammo per ton (say to TT levels of 8 shots per ton). In its current state I almost never use gauss rifles, mostly because I'm not going to carry a weapon that when a target presents itself I have to wind it up first to shoot, possibly costing me the shot. Better to just mount something else and use the extra tonnage for ammo, armor, heat sinks, or other weapons.

[Tincan Nightmare]

OZHomerOZ, on 06 May 2015 - 01:27 AM, said:

The OP's light mech got one shot by guass, he wants them nerfed so can brush them off like lasers and dodge them like PPC's.

I think a 100Ton mech should be able to 1 shot a 25ton mech.

And twin guass rifles are one of the few weapons that can do the job reliability against small lag shielded lights.
But you need some skill to land those shots, which is not a crime.
Plus you pay 24 to 30 tons for the privileged without ammo.

In BT the only weapons with a longer range than a guass were clan Ultra/Lbx 2 and 5's, IS AC2, ER PPC's and Clan ER Large laser, so Yes guass rifles are the BT mech sniper rifle. Think .50cal sniper.

So the removal of the charge mechanic is a nerf to the gauss rifle in your opinion? Also, is all of those weapons listed that have a range greater than the gauss rifle by default sniper weapons as well? Weapons on mechs are like main guns on tanks, just because it shoots far doesn't make it a 'sniper rifle'.

[generalazure]

Cookiemonter669, on 05 May 2015 - 02:11 PM, said:

I tried an "autofire"-macro on my grid iron,press left mouse button -> gauss starts an automatic charge+fire cycle,another press stops it,can fire as long as you have ammo left.It was devastating in brawls but wasted too much ammo for my taste and it was really hard to get used to the mechanic,so i uninstalled the FC-script.

This is probably the most inefficient use of a macro I've ever heard of in this game, sorry to say it. Putting a weapon on a delayed fire system that cannot be cancelled sounds like an awesome way to waste ammo and increase friendly fire.

There are some places in this game where macros can give an actual advantage (custom chain fire that cycles faster than the regular one, staggering around ghost heat limits or just the convenient always-on TAG) and I'd support dealing with any of those. But this just ain't it.


On another note, imho the charge up is mainly there so you can poke gauss users with a fast mech and get back to cover before they are charged and ready to fire back

[Widowmaker1981]

Tincan Nightmare, on 06 May 2015 - 01:30 AM, said:

Why does everyone keep assuming that it if the charge is removed that no other changes will be made to balance it? An increase in CD would make it far from OP, its projectile velocity can be reduced to balance it alongside other ballistics, as well as other options such as increased heat generation or even lowering ammo per ton (say to TT levels of 8 shots per ton). In its current state I almost never use gauss rifles, mostly because I'm not going to carry a weapon that when a target presents itself I have to wind it up first to shoot, possibly costing me the shot. Better to just mount something else and use the extra tonnage for ammo, armor, heat sinks, or other weapons.

Because 15 dmg zero heat long range pinpoint snapshot is gonna be OP regardless of the cooldown, unless its ridiculously long (like more than 10s). I am very much not a fan of using projectile speed to balance 'sniper' weapons because it makes them unusable at long range where they are intended to be used, and has no effect on their close range effectiveness. See the abomination that is default unquirked PPC velocity.

[Hit the Deck]

OZHomerOZ, on 06 May 2015 - 01:27 AM, said:

In BT the only weapons with a longer range than a guass were clan Ultra/Lbx 2 and 5's, IS AC2, ER PPC's and Clan ER Large laser, so Yes guass rifles are the BT mech sniper rifle. Think .50cal sniper.

I just want to add that in MWO, (c)Gauss beat all of them at all ranges damage-wise. I have made a little chart to make it clear:



Adding to the fact that PGI made the projectile flies at 2km/s, so yes, (c)Gauss is the sniper weapon!


EDIT: for multiple amount of a particular weapon, you can just multiply the damage and it will change the gradient but practically the (c)Gauss still reigns supreme!

For example, 2x cERPPC beats the Gauss below ~1400m but that combo runs hot!

Edited by Hit the Deck, 06 May 2015 - 02:31 AM.

[Kiiyor]

Rouken, on 05 May 2015 - 12:10 PM, said:

I use the Gauss just fine without a macro. It is not that hard to master.

I find it harder to use with a macro. I like being in control of my release point.

Heh. Release point.

[Matthew Ace]

Malleus011, on 05 May 2015 - 03:40 PM, said:

The Gauss charge was a lazy, bad solution, and should be removed as soon as possible.

There are no 'sniper' weapons in Battletech. The Gauss Rifle is a 'main gun', just like the LL, PPC, or bigger AC's. The longbow mechanic has no place in a game like this, no matter how easy it is to learn or macro. It's just poor game design.

The Gauss Rifle should be the single best IS weapon against the Clans; being the only thing we have that comes close to the same kind of performance envelope as Clantech. It's heavy, explosion prone, ammo dependent, and has a minimum range ... plenty of disadvantages, if only they'd implement them correctly.

While I understand where you're coming from, explain how you will desync PPC+Gauss alpha and Daishis with multiple Gauss Rifles?

Personally, I would love to see the Gauss Rifle become even more lethal when used singly, but made harder to use in conjunction in multiples or with any other weapons.

El Bandito, on 05 May 2015 - 06:33 PM, said:

Just make it so that only ONE Gauss can be fired within 0.5 seconds. Very simple way to curb its alpha.

Something like what El bandito suggested, but my dream one step further. Quick question to readers: Would you still use Gauss if it does even larger damage but can only be fired singly at a time and never in multiples or with any other weapons, and has a much longer cooldown?

Spoiler

Damage: 19
Range: 800/2000
Cooldown: 8
Ammo per ton: 8

(Damage and ammo count is adjusted to maintain close to 150 damage per ton)

Edited by Matthew Ace, 06 May 2015 - 02:56 AM.

[Moldur]

Q: What is gauss rifle charge up supposed to do?
Q: Does it do that?

Q: If not, what is an alternative that will work?

Just so there's no confusion about the discussion.

[Bobzilla]

It's to simulate min range to make it bad in brawling and more sniper type.

It doesn't do this.

Remove charge and give it an actual min range. This will make dual gauss have a huge liability.

[RockmachinE]

I like the charge mechanic, it makes shooting the gauss fun and rewarding. I see no problem with gauss as a weapon in MWO.

Dual or multiple gauss can be nasty, but those are mounted on heavier platforms which take a while to find a good position and maneuver into place, this I find sufficient a downside, its not hard to evade. And if youre on the ball and have good situational awareness you will not get shot in the back.

Its a well balanced weapon. One of the few.

Edited by Louis Brofist, 06 May 2015 - 02:58 AM.

[General Solo]

Tincan Nightmare, on 06 May 2015 - 01:34 AM, said:

So the removal of the charge mechanic is a nerf to the gauss rifle in your opinion? Also, is all of those weapons listed that have a range greater than the gauss rifle by default sniper weapons as well? Weapons on mechs are like main guns on tanks, just because it shoots far doesn't make it a 'sniper rifle'.

Removal of the charge up would be a buff (how could that be a nerf)

Unlike a tank a mech can have as many MAIN guns as it likes, as mechs vary in loadouts much more than tanks.
Compare 120mm cannon and machine guns of tanks to mechs which can carry Lazors, autocannons, Missiles, MG, PPC, Flamers, Swords, Tasers, Chainwhips to name some which I could sub catorgorize, but will retrain from doing.

Guass maybe not a sniper weapon but it has long range and will rek you.
Which is what the OP's orginal post was about.

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 06 May 2015 - 02:59 AM.

[Insects]

Moldur, on 06 May 2015 - 02:33 AM, said:

Q: What is gauss rifle charge up supposed to do?
Q: Does it do that?

Q: If not, what is an alternative that will work?

It is supposed to make the weapon harder to use and nerf it down by making it have almost a second delay before you can fire which makes you miss opportunities.

It achieves that, observe people complaining that it is too hard for them and it not being overly common.

It is the most lethal ballistic with its projectile speed, low visibility and good range for a 10 dmg projectie.
Without the delay to make it tricky to use it is too OP.

[Hit the Deck]

Bobzilla, on 06 May 2015 - 02:40 AM, said:

It's to simulate min range to make it bad in brawling and more sniper type.

It doesn't do this.

Remove charge and give it an actual min range. This will make dual gauss have a huge liability.

Do you honestly think that the charge up doesn't make it bad for hitting fast moving enemies at short range?

Please leave magical zero damage for PPC and LRMs. Actually I want PGI to make a mechanism that could simulate the decrease to +hit at short range for PPC and LRMs. For LRMs, maybe they could make it so that the missiles cannot fly past a certain angle (so it always flies in an arc). This may be stupid but currently I can't think of something better.

Edited by Hit the Deck, 06 May 2015 - 02:58 AM.

[Bobzilla]

Hit the Deck, on 06 May 2015 - 02:56 AM, said:

Do you honestly think that the charge up doesn't make it bad for hitting fast moving enemies at short range?

Please leave magical zero damage for PPC and LRMs. Actually I want PGI to make a mechanism that could simulate the decrease to +hit at short range for PPC and LRMs. For LRMs, maybe they could make it so that the missiles cannot fly past a certain angle (so it always flies in an arc). This may be stupid but currently I can't think of something better.

It's easier to hit targets if you know where they will be after the charge. So it's easier to use as a brawler weapon then in the sniper peekaboo situation.

As for 'magical dmg ' how do lrms do less dmg at short range?

[Joseph Mallan]

Johnny Z, on 05 May 2015 - 07:16 PM, said:

My example in the Op was purely to show that charge isnt effecting everyone fairly. Period.

If a dual gauss dire wolf can hit the right torso of a commando weaving and go across not directly in front at 150 kph and one shot it, then the mechanic is not working as intended. Period.

Not asking for a Gauss nerf. Asking for the charge to be removed so it is an even playing for everyone wanting to use the gauss. No reason players using third party programs should be better off using it than legit players if it can be helped.

Much like my 3 x SSRM 2's on my commando the gauss isnt OP in alot of ways. It may be OP if only program assited players can use it properly though.

Again if the charge isnt do its job then remove it. The charge as a game play element only making it more difficult for regular players to play isnt what it was made for.

The higher skill arguement would be valid if the mechanism wasnt being bypassed.

It's 1.5 second delay prior to firing. How is that NOT affecting everyone?

That some people have better rhythm is not PGI problem.

And take this into consideration. I like BFGs. No I LOVE BFGs, and I am fine with the charge up on the Gauss.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 06 May 2015 - 03:33 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

Bobzilla, on 06 May 2015 - 03:08 AM, said:

It's easier to hit targets if you know where they will be after the charge. So it's easier to use as a brawler weapon then in the sniper peekaboo situation.

As for 'magical dmg ' how do lrms do less dmg at short range?

And you have 1.25s for firing your Gauss before it loses its charge. If you somehow think that it's best not to fire and then re-aim, then you can only fire it after recharging it up after 0.75s. So it magnifies user error, punish indecisiveness, and raise the difficulty. Peek-a-booing also has got a difficulty raise by making you to precharge if you want to instantly fire your Gauss the moment you come out from cover and see the enemy. And like always, you only have 1,25s to take the shot. In spite all of these, good players will always be better than the rest and they can like, headshotting a jumping Spider from 1000m with a Gauss.

As for LRMs, I'm not that well versed on BT lore but quoting SARNA:

Quote

First introduced in 2400 by the Terran Hegemony, Long Range Missiles are designed to engage the enemy at great distances at the expense of damage dealt. Adapted towards the profusion of electronic jamming on the battlefield and the effectiveness of current armor designs, these missiles are capable of indirect fire and disperse over a smaller area than Short Range Missiles. Inner Sphere LRM launchers achieve this range by firing at a ballistic launch angle, making them less accurate at close range. Clan LRM launchers do not suffer from this effect, in addition to being smaller and more compact, thanks to their technological advantage. LRMs are highly upgradable, able to fire a variety of warheads and benefit from devices such as Artemis IV FCS.

It looks similar to my suggestion?