113 replies to this topic

[Roadkill]

ICEFANG13, on 07 May 2015 - 03:40 PM, said:

Um, I'm gonna go ahead and ask, "Why not?"

Under the right circumstances and with a disparity in pilot skill, sure. But that should be an exceptional case, not the norm. We're talking generically here. And generically, if a war machine that costs 2 million c-bills can reliably and routinely beat a war machine that costs 12 million c-bills, that's a problem. There's no reason to ever build a 12 million c-bill war machine in that world - just buy 6 x 2 million and run with that.

But like StJobe said, Role Warfare is dead. PGI just can't do it, so as dumb as rock-paper-scissors is it's probably what we're stuck with.

[stjobe]

Roadkill, on 07 May 2015 - 03:46 PM, said:

Under the right circumstances and with a disparity in pilot skill, sure. But that should be an exceptional case, not the norm. We're talking generically here. And generically, if a war machine that costs 2 million c-bills can reliably and routinely beat a war machine that costs 12 million c-bills, that's a problem. There's no reason to ever build a 12 million c-bill war machine in that world - just buy 6 x 2 million and run with that.

But like StJobe said, Role Warfare is dead. PGI just can't do it, so as dumb as rock-paper-scissors is it's probably what we're stuck with.

RPS may be dumb in the real world. But in a PvP game it's pretty much infinitely better than having one kind of unit that always beats every other unit. Kinda makes people not want to play those other units, yaknow?

[Ragtag soldier]

stjobe, on 07 May 2015 - 03:49 PM, said:

RPS may be dumb in the real world. But in a PvP game it's pretty much infinitely better than having one kind of unit that always beats every other unit. Kinda makes people not want to play those other units, yaknow?

see, you're not supposed to 1v1 assaults. you're supposed to either draw off the enemy away from their big guns and kill them piecemeal so you can take on the assaults with numbers, or wait for them to screw and simply ambush the assaults they left behind first.

sadly this requires coordination and maps with side-routes, which are both pretty much missing from this game.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Darian DelFord, on 07 May 2015 - 03:13 PM, said:

You will have to forgive me but this is NOT TT. It is based on TT. Some rules will transfer over well, others simply fail in a computer game environment. Every class needs to be viable.

The fact of the matter as has been discussed in this thread is the agility of some of the heavies and assaults is to much. So assaults are meant to be agile The Victor for example. However when you have a heavier chassis that can whip about to 180 degrees in less than 2 seconds then there is an issue. Lights to survive have to stay out of sight its that simple. The Lag Shield is gone (Not that I had it much) The back is our ball park. The way the current game is designed lights have been indirectly reduced to an annoyance on the field of battle. One good alpha and any light is almost obliterated, so we MUST be out of sight.

Secondly, lights are NOT suppose to hunt other lights in this game unless you have a ton of streaks. On equal skill and ground one mech is dead the other is all but dead. This is NOT a lights job.

In regards to my "Bad Luck" Yup I get my ass handed to me some times, just like I had the their ass to others, its part of the game, I am not a UBER player in every match we all get butt rapped.

However it does not change the fact that the Heavier Chassis need to be looked at.

There is a Reason the light queue is STEADILY under 15% this is one of them

stjobe, on 07 May 2015 - 03:25 PM, said:

They absolutely should.

This is a one-'mech-per-player online PvP game, not a 12-mechs-per-player board game. All 'mechs need to be at least somewhat viable or there's no point in playing them.

PGI wanted this to happen by the rock-paper-scissors method of balancing, where assaults should beat heavies, heavies should beat mediums, mediums should beat lights, and lights should beat assaults. Fair and square, everyone has a natural predator and a natural prey. Everyone's equally viable.

This doesn't work if the assault is agile enough to deny the light its only advantages over the assault; its speed and agility. The assault has more armour than the entire light weighs, and twice that in weaponry. There's no question that if it hits the light more than once, it's game over. So the only chance the light has is to not get hit.

But if assaults and heavies are too fast and agile, the rock-paper-scissors method becomes Assaults beats Heavies and Lights. Heavies beat Mediums and Lights. Mediums beat Lights, and Lights... well, have you seen the light queue numbers?

If you aren't able to tear up Assaults with a Light currently, that is entirely on you as a pilot, that's not the game. I usually get 2-4 kills with my Urby in CW, my Raven usually accounts for another 2-4 kills in CW. Playing non-CW in solo puglandia, I get 3-5 with either of those, 2-4 with my Panther, ERPPC on that. And while I'm a good Light pilot, I'm far from the top, I know plenty of Light jocks who make me look horrible and they are consistent about it.

Inability to use the toys to their full effect doesn't mean the game isn't balanced, it's a user issue. I don't use Mediums and Heavys a lot, I don't do well in them for some reason. I'm fully aware of this, it's been the same in every video game for this genre ever, I never blame the game for MY lack in this area, it's purely on me.

MWO Lights, even the Clan Lights, can do things far beyond their TT counterparts, and they can all take out Heavys and Assaults, provided you simply play to the strengths of your Mech and the weakness of the target's Mech. Failure to do that leads to disaster, and that's not bad game balance. All the previous MW titles had the same thing in them, Lights could take on Assaults, but you better do it right or you died, failure was fatal every time. MWO you can actually survive a mistake, even two sometimes.

[Darian DelFord]

Kristov Kerensky, on 07 May 2015 - 07:05 PM, said:

If you aren't able to tear up Assaults with a Light currently, that is entirely on you as a pilot, that's not the game. I usually get 2-4 kills with my Urby in CW, my Raven usually accounts for another 2-4 kills in CW. Playing non-CW in solo puglandia, I get 3-5 with either of those, 2-4 with my Panther, ERPPC on that. And while I'm a good Light pilot, I'm far from the top, I know plenty of Light jocks who make me look horrible and they are consistent about it.

Inability to use the toys to their full effect doesn't mean the game isn't balanced, it's a user issue. I don't use Mediums and Heavys a lot, I don't do well in them for some reason. I'm fully aware of this, it's been the same in every video game for this genre ever, I never blame the game for MY lack in this area, it's purely on me.

MWO Lights, even the Clan Lights, can do things far beyond their TT counterparts, and they can all take out Heavys and Assaults, provided you simply play to the strengths of your Mech and the weakness of the target's Mech. Failure to do that leads to disaster, and that's not bad game balance. All the previous MW titles had the same thing in them, Lights could take on Assaults, but you better do it right or you died, failure was fatal every time. MWO you can actually survive a mistake, even two sometimes.

I bow to your Uberness, but for the rest of the pilots in this game, there is an obvious problem with the agility, and I am not the only one that is seeing it. I am glad your Urbie can kill 2-4 mechs per match, come and face me and I will make sure that does not happen. Urbies are a mere nuisance and most likely you are built for 400 + meter fighting. An Oxide is not it is a less than 200 meter fighter. Its like people complaining about the FS9 SL build. OMG it has to be under 150 meters to be really effective.

I can post numbers where I have killed 7-9 mechs in my Jenner, does not mean it happens every time. And quite frankly Kills MEAN NOTHING in this game. Unless completely done solo. The fact of the matter is this. Lights rely on Speed and Agility to stay alive, it is all that we have now. Assaults relay on Armor and Weapons to survive. But with their engine relations to agility they can face their rear arc quicker than my weapons can reload. I can not stand still and fire I must move or die.

The lights natural prey in MWO is the assault mechs. However with the continuous reductions in the ability of the lights to survive the light population has plummeted. Personally I am having to wait almost 2-3 minutes for a match in the PUG queue and then half the time I get dropped down to the minor leagues. There is a problem here, this is one of them.

Edited by Darian DelFord, 07 May 2015 - 08:16 PM.

[IronLichRich]

LordKnightFandragon, on 05 May 2015 - 08:07 PM, said:

Ill get on that boat when an assault is the one punking the lights and not the other way around...a DWF should fear the circle jerking light, the light should fear the Whale...

Arm flip for the win.

[Leone]

I've finally gotten the hang of lights, to the effect that someone in a heavy chose to hunt me down after my first kill because they'd seen me in game, and respected my abilities enough to ignore the larger battle to go light hunting. (A choice I completely understand.)

That said, yeah, a good heavy pilot can keep themselves alive if I go after them, and a well executed torso twist and direction change after I dance out of their field of fire so they can bring their weapons to bear whilest I try madly to reverse and stay outta the line of fire is a thing of beauty. A maddeningly annoying one that keeps me from my solo kill, but I can hardly fault someone for getting the most outta their machine.

Earlier today I manage four separate times to engage an assault or heavy out of line of sight from their team mates, and they all four managed to keep me from that Juicy Juicy Rear CT after my opening salvo, even if I managed a few shots in whilest we danced, every time they held out till reinforcements arrived and I had to bug out.

Four perfect assassination attempts, foil by good piloting and decent torso twisting, even outta the Stalker.

And you know what? I'd rather not change a thing. I survived my first four attempts, in a light, up against a superior match, tonnage wise, and while we danced, my team was dealing with one to three less mechs, as usually someone came to help out my prey. I respect those pilots for knowing how to deal with a light, and having the skill to manage it. I don't want easy kills handed to me... (Well, okay, I do enjoy a King Crab that tries to dance, rather than backing into terrain, those could stand a bit of twist speed.)

Sometimes you just lose initiative, and you've no choice but to see who dances better, or bug out and try again another round.

I want every mech on the field to have a chance against every other mech. That's what makes it fun.

~Leone, Raid Leader of the Crimson Hand.

Edited by Leone, 08 May 2015 - 12:33 AM.

[Ursh]

Leone, on 08 May 2015 - 12:30 AM, said:

I've finally gotten the hang of lights, to the effect that someone in a heavy chose to hunt me down after my first kill because they'd seen me in game, and respected my abilities enough to ignore the larger battle to go light hunting. (A choice I completely understand.)

That said, yeah, a good heavy pilot can keep themselves alive if I go after them, and a well executed torso twist and direction change after I dance out of their field of fire so they can bring their weapons to bear whilest I try madly to reverse and stay outta the line of fire is a thing of beauty. A maddeningly annoying one that keeps me from my solo kill, but I can hardly fault someone for getting the most outta their machine.

Earlier today I manage four separate times to engage an assault or heavy out of line of sight from their team mates, and they all four managed to keep me from that Juicy Juicy Rear CT after my opening salvo, even if I managed a few shots in whilest we danced, every time they held out till reinforcements arrived and I had to bug out.

Four perfect assassination attempts, foil by good piloting and decent torso twisting, even outta the Stalker.

And you know what? I'd rather not change a thing. I survived my first four attempts, in a light, up against a superior match, tonnage wise, and while we danced, my team was dealing with one to three less mechs, as usually someone came to help out my prey. I respect those pilots for knowing how to deal with a light, and having the skill to manage it. I don't want easy kills handed to me... (Well, okay, I do enjoy a King Crab that tries to dance, rather than backing into terrain, those could stand a bit of twist speed.)

Sometimes you just lose initiative, and you've no choice but to see who dances better, or bug out and try again another round.

I want every mech on the field to have a chance against every other mech. That's what makes it fun.

~Leone, Raid Leader of the Crimson Hand.

This is supposed to be what lights should do...eat up a guy who won't pay attention, and threaten a good pilot who knows they can't ignore you. If you've got a 100 ton mech trying to shoot/avoid a 35 ton mech, that's what we call a great trade. It should mean, in theory, that your team can push a position without having 100 tons of firepower added to the defense.

Ursh, on 08 May 2015 - 05:29 AM, said:

This is supposed to be what lights should do...eat up a guy who won't pay attention, and threaten a good pilot who knows they can't ignore you. If you've got a 100 ton mech trying to shoot/avoid a 35 ton mech, that's what we call a great trade. It should mean, in theory, that your team can push a position without having 100 tons of firepower added to the defense.

With equal skill, the light pilot shouldn't be owning the assault mech, and the assault mech shouldn't be owning the light.

[Impossible Wasabi]

Ragtag soldier, on 07 May 2015 - 06:11 PM, said:

see, you're not supposed to 1v1 assaults. you're supposed to either draw off the enemy away from their big guns and kill them piecemeal so you can take on the assaults with numbers, or wait for them to screw and simply ambush the assaults they left behind first.

sadly this requires coordination and maps with side-routes, which are both pretty much missing from this game.

The issue is that this "Lights need backup or numbers to beat one Assault" only really works if having lighter mechs also means having a numerical advantage (i.e. take TT, you can grab give up tonnage to have more light mechs).

With games being capped at 12 vs 12, Lights need to be able to solo Assaults if they are good enough pilots or the game simply becomes a matter of having the biggest mech, with static numbers everyone on a team needs to be able to carry their weight and kill things.

Honestly, though, against decent or good Assault pilots even the best Light mech pilots need to play cautiously and 1 vs 1 engagements are not a good idea (all it takes is one good hit to decomission a light mech and most good pilots will make that shot 9/10 times with little trouble).

Edited by The True Space Pope, 08 May 2015 - 09:16 AM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Darian DelFord, on 07 May 2015 - 08:15 PM, said:

I bow to your Uberness, but for the rest of the pilots in this game, there is an obvious problem with the agility, and I am not the only one that is seeing it. I am glad your Urbie can kill 2-4 mechs per match, come and face me and I will make sure that does not happen. Urbies are a mere nuisance and most likely you are built for 400 + meter fighting. An Oxide is not it is a less than 200 meter fighter. Its like people complaining about the FS9 SL build. OMG it has to be under 150 meters to be really effective.

I can post numbers where I have killed 7-9 mechs in my Jenner, does not mean it happens every time. And quite frankly Kills MEAN NOTHING in this game. Unless completely done solo. The fact of the matter is this. Lights rely on Speed and Agility to stay alive, it is all that we have now. Assaults relay on Armor and Weapons to survive. But with their engine relations to agility they can face their rear arc quicker than my weapons can reload. I can not stand still and fire I must move or die.

The lights natural prey in MWO is the assault mechs. However with the continuous reductions in the ability of the lights to survive the light population has plummeted. Personally I am having to wait almost 2-3 minutes for a match in the PUG queue and then half the time I get dropped down to the minor leagues. There is a problem here, this is one of them.

Uber, no, not even close, but thanks for the compliment. My kills are usually solo kills btw, I'm stingy like that in my Lights, and except for my Panther, my Lights are all short ranged, meds, med pulse, SRMs, mguns, only my Panther carries anything long range, it has an ERPPC on it. Hells, even my Kit Fox is all short ranged weaponary, it's an ECM/AMS Heavy/Assault escort, not a hunter or scout.

I stalk my prey with care, I'm in a Mech that can be taken out with a single alpha from many Mediums, Heavys and all the Assaults, so I try really hard not to do stupid things like go face to face. If my prey shows signs of know what the hell he's doing, I bug out, simple as that, I am NOT in a brawler, I'm in a very fast very small coffin and I know it.

Light Mechs are not supposed to be taking on Heavys and Assaults by themselves, we do it all the time in MWO however. In my King Crab, I see a Dire Wolf, I don't worry, he's dead, pure and simple. I see a Timby, oh my..*yawn*..Scrow MIGHT get a giggle out of me, but if I see a Raven, Commando, Firestarter, Panther, even an Urby, my ass puckers up and I get worried, and I blow the side torso off a Locust at 800m with my dual gauss more often than not. But let those little nasty buggers get close and I've got a hell of a problem on my hands. IF I can get them in my sites long enough I can take them out, but the problem is, as fast as I can spin around, they can actually move faster, especially if they know what they are doing, and they don't GET in my sites long enough to get a solid hit. I find a wall and I park my ass against it, that's the only good way to deal with a Light in ANY of the big Mechs. If they are dumb enough to stick around when I do that, that's on them. Me, when I'm in my Lights and my prey does that, I bug RIGHT out, it's suicide to stick around.

If you decide to stick around when you realize the big target can actually counter your Light, that's on you, pure and simple. I don't get kills with my Lights because I play stupid, I get kills because I know when to run the hell away and find another target.

[Darian DelFord]

Kristov Kerensky, on 08 May 2015 - 02:58 PM, said:

Uber, no, not even close, but thanks for the compliment. My kills are usually solo kills btw, I'm stingy like that in my Lights, and except for my Panther, my Lights are all short ranged, meds, med pulse, SRMs, mguns, only my Panther carries anything long range, it has an ERPPC on it. Hells, even my Kit Fox is all short ranged weaponary, it's an ECM/AMS Heavy/Assault escort, not a hunter or scout.

I stalk my prey with care, I'm in a Mech that can be taken out with a single alpha from many Mediums, Heavys and all the Assaults, so I try really hard not to do stupid things like go face to face. If my prey shows signs of know what the hell he's doing, I bug out, simple as that, I am NOT in a brawler, I'm in a very fast very small coffin and I know it.

Light Mechs are not supposed to be taking on Heavys and Assaults by themselves, we do it all the time in MWO however. In my King Crab, I see a Dire Wolf, I don't worry, he's dead, pure and simple. I see a Timby, oh my..*yawn*..Scrow MIGHT get a giggle out of me, but if I see a Raven, Commando, Firestarter, Panther, even an Urby, my ass puckers up and I get worried, and I blow the side torso off a Locust at 800m with my dual gauss more often than not. But let those little nasty buggers get close and I've got a hell of a problem on my hands. IF I can get them in my sites long enough I can take them out, but the problem is, as fast as I can spin around, they can actually move faster, especially if they know what they are doing, and they don't GET in my sites long enough to get a solid hit. I find a wall and I park my ass against it, that's the only good way to deal with a Light in ANY of the big Mechs. If they are dumb enough to stick around when I do that, that's on them. Me, when I'm in my Lights and my prey does that, I bug RIGHT out, it's suicide to stick around.

If you decide to stick around when you realize the big target can actually counter your Light, that's on you, pure and simple. I don't get kills with my Lights because I play stupid, I get kills because I know when to run the hell away and find another target.

Can you please do a little less ego stroking and get back on topic?

[LordBraxton]

Darian DelFord, on 08 May 2015 - 05:14 PM, said:

Can you please do a little less ego stroking and get back on topic?

he wins points for talking about his puckering ass tho

Edited by LordBraxton, 08 May 2015 - 05:24 PM.

[Darian DelFord]

LordBraxton, on 08 May 2015 - 05:24 PM, said:

he wins points for talking about his puckering ass tho

Ahhh I missed that, thanks for pointing it out

[Weeny Machine]

What is also forgotten is: heavies and assaults are not often far from teammates. A light usually has to be in the face of the enemy to do any realy damage.
With the heavy and assault ballerinas the problem for the light escalate quickly: not only is a teammate usually soon helping the chubby but the chubby does his spin and gives the light hell as well. Now the light has to run off...while under the laser spam from two mechs.

And for those who do not want to have a cap on the turn rate of heavies and assaults (that way the slow assaults without XLs won't get unplayable) ask yourself: why is the light queue sometines at whooping 7%?

Edited by Bush Hopper, 09 May 2015 - 11:54 AM.