26 replies to this topic

[Poisoner]

So everyone complains about the trial mechs (they're bad). A few people suggest we let the community decide the trial builds. But, I don't know if that is a good idea. I just saw a 6x MG king crab with 2x LRM 10 and a few PPCs. I've seen worse too of course. However, 6 machine guns on a crab is post worthy material.

[FupDup]

We'd have to chose competent community members...


Also, that King Crab might actually be less bad than the XL trial Stalker.

[Fate 6]

If they are running LRMs and PPCs with MG backups that's not really completely awful. Not the best, but it's something we might very well see on the Mauler too.

We're not suggesting have bad players pick the trial loadouts. We want good players making them. Just loom at the DRG-5N(C) loadout which was decided on by players - it's actually a solid loadout with a bit of room for tweaking and optimization. Probably the best (C) loudout there is tbh

[Lexx]

The main problem I see with trial mechs is not the mechs themselves; some of them are actually good builds.
(If you weren't already aware, most of the trial mechs we have now were designed by members of the community.)

From my point of view, the problem lies mainly in the fact that they have nothing unlocked and no modules. I feel trial mechs should have some of the skills unlocked, including speed tweak and perhaps even all the way up to where there is nothing left but the master level that gives the extra module. I think they should also have a basic set of modules, like radar deprivation, range and cooldown modules for their main weapon type, an air strike/atry strike and a UAV.

If PGI really wants to improve the new player experience, they should give them mechs that are somewhat competitive. No matter how good the build is, no trial mech can be competitive without even having the basic skills unlocked.

One might say "if the trial mechs were that good, then why would anyone buy their own mechs?"

To that my answer is customization. New players wouldn't be able to customize the trial mechs and I feel most would buy them just for the ability to run whatever they want on them.

Edited by Lexx, 06 May 2015 - 08:28 AM.

[Ghogiel]

I would be willing to bet nearly all of the champion mech loadouts are better than their stock mech counterparts.

[Tarogato]

MGs alone on a Krab isn't bad... it works will as a backup weapon to hillhumping energy/splat builds.

It's the part where you said "2x LRM 10" that scares me.

[Shae Starfyre]

Lexx, on 06 May 2015 - 08:22 AM, said:

The main problem I see with trial mechs is not the mechs themselves; some of them are actually good builds.

From my point of view, the problem lies mainly in the fact that they have nothing unlocked and no modules. I feel trial mechs should have some of the skills unlocked, including speed tweak and perhaps even all the way up to where there is nothing left but the master level that gives the extra module. I think they should also have a basic set of modules, like range and cooldown modules for their main weapon type, an air strike/atry strike and a UAV.

If PGI really wants to improve the new player experience, they should give them mechs that are somewhat competitive. No matter how good the build is, no trial mech can be competitive without even having the basic skills unlocked.

One might say "if the trial mechs were that good, then why would anyone buy their own mechs?"

To that my answer is customization. New players wouldn't be able to customize the trial mechs and I feel most would buy them just for the ability to run whatever they want on them.

Possible backfire:

Does fairly well in Trial, decides to buy it, realized it is not so good anymore, complains; finds out he needs 3 of them and a grind, leaves from being dis-allusioned (is this the right word)?

This is akin to setting one up for failure.

Edited by Aphoticus, 06 May 2015 - 08:29 AM.

[DjPush]

I think there needs to be a little thought put into the trial mechs. Assuming these mechs are being used by new players, how do we want new players to experience and understand the game. In the beginning, the developers talked about this game being about layered combat. The players, for the most part seem to have forgotten that. I plan my builds in this manner. Most of my loadouts have weapons that allow me to do damage from 700 to 0 meters. It's understandable that it isn't possible for all mechs to be built this way.
What I suggest is providing new players with mechs that are heat efficient, leveled out and built for layered combat. Maybe if they see the benifit of being able to do damage at different ranges, softening up targets before they get in close, you might start to see less meta. Less pinpoint alphas and gauss rifles.

Maybe this is a pipe dream of mine. A thinking player that chooses variety and drawn out combat over insta kills. Players willing to explore different loadouts and not put the same build on every mech.

Edited by DjPush, 06 May 2015 - 08:49 AM.

[Fuggles]

im sorry but i played a stock dragon 1c as a trial mech back in the day, that mech overheated shooting its single ac2 with 1t of ammo.

i also played a stock ctf-4x wich turned slower than a direwhale. seriously traumatic new player experience.

these champ mechs are lightyears ahead of those mechs and handing new players meta timerwolves wouldnt make them better at the game.

Edited by Fuggles, 06 May 2015 - 08:48 AM.

[FupDup]

Ghogiel, on 06 May 2015 - 08:28 AM, said:

I would be willing to bet nearly all of the champion mech loadouts are better than their stock mech counterparts.

The XL Stalker might be a draw...

I don't think the stock builds should really be used as the baseline here, because of how poorly optimized/designed many of them are.

Fuggles, on 06 May 2015 - 08:47 AM, said:

im sorry but i played a stock dragon 1c as a trial mech back in the day, that mech overheated shooting its single ac2 with 1t of ammo.

i also played a stock ctf-4x wich turned slower than a direwhale. seriously traumatic new player experience.

these champ mechs are lightyears ahead of those mechs and handing new players meta timerwolves wouldnt make them better at the game.

This line of thought can be summarized as "I had to suffer, so I want other people to as well!"

[Shae Starfyre]

I am a big advocator of mixed loadouts; no issues on any map and can be effective at most ranges.

And, I agree. If the Trials provided this, I believe the experience would be better; however, there is something to experience heat issues, speed issues, and other things that allow people to critical think about the viability of certain loadouts, tactics, etc.

Still mixed feelings.

[Apnu]

Ghogiel, on 06 May 2015 - 08:28 AM, said:

I would be willing to bet nearly all of the champion mech loadouts are better than their stock mech counterparts.

You are correct. Trials used to be stock mechs and it was brutal for newbies. So now all the trials are champion builds.

[Apnu]

DjPush, on 06 May 2015 - 08:45 AM, said:

I think there needs to be a little thought put into the trial mechs. Assuming these mechs are being used by new players, how do we want new players to experience and understand the game. In the beginning, the developers talked about this game being about layered combat. The players, for the most part seem to have forgotten that. I plan my builds in this manner. Most of my loadouts have weapons that allow me to do damage from 700 to 0 meters. It's understandable that it isn't possible for all mechs to be built this way.
What I suggest is providing new players with mechs that are heat efficient, leveled out and built for layered combat. Maybe if they see the benifit of being able to do damage at different ranges, softening up targets before they get in close, you might start to see less meta. Less pinpoint alphas and gauss rifles.

Maybe this is a pipe dream of mine. A thinking player that chooses variety and drawn out combat over insta kills. Players willing to explore different loadouts and not put the same build on every mech.

Another solution is to put all cadets in their own pool. Make it Skirmish only, only people grinding out the cadet bonus and only in stock mechs. Once the MM has an even number of players (even if its only 12 players total so a 6v6), drop them in a match. Everything's even. Noobs are free to fumble around and make mistakes and aren't punished by vets for being new and poor.

[Haxburch]

Its not a trail mech issue , its just the pilot in it. The trail mech piot is a noob ... nothing more to say , this is the truth . He has no idea about movement, maps , tactic and mechs overall.
And beginner should not have more acess then to max medium mechs , because hvys and assaults are really important for the team.
just my 2 cent , i know nobody want to hear this.

Edited by Haxburch, 06 May 2015 - 09:14 AM.

[Torgun]

Ghogiel, on 06 May 2015 - 08:28 AM, said:

I would be willing to bet nearly all of the champion mech loadouts are better than their stock mech counterparts.

That's setting the bar very low though since most stock mechs are just flat out terrible.

[Senor Cataclysmo]

Aphoticus, on 06 May 2015 - 08:28 AM, said:

Possible backfire:

Does fairly well in Trial, decides to buy it, realized it is not so good anymore, complains; finds out he needs 3 of them and a grind, leaves from being dis-allusioned (is this the right word)?

This is akin to setting one up for failure.

This exact thing happened to me as a newbie with the trial shadowhawk. It didn't put me off the game, but I did end up wasting a lot of C-bills.

(also, it's disillusioned )

Edited by Senor Cataclysmo, 06 May 2015 - 09:22 AM.

[Darwins Dog]

I ground out my first cbills on a stock CPLT-K2, and you didn't hear me complaining! </oldtimer>

One thing that would really help the trial builds is a short explanation on what kind of build it carries and how to use it.

Example:
The BJ-1 carries the AC/20. The most powerful single shot in the game. It also packs 3 medium lasers for backup, and jump jets for extra mobility.

Strengths:
Fast moving, and nimble.
Jump jets help to clear small buildings and obstacles.
Powerful weapons with high mounts to take advantage of cover.

Weaknesses:
Close range weapons.
Low armor and an XL engine make it relatively fragile.

Strategy tips:
Hang back in cover with the bigger mechs on your team. When the enemy is engaged with your tougher teammates, use your mobility to hit their weak points and then fall back before they can return fire.

At least that way players would have a better idea of what to do with their mechs. Some could still use an update, but most aren't terribad.

[Almond Brown]

FupDup, on 06 May 2015 - 08:04 AM, said:

We'd have to chose competent community members...

Also, that King Crab might actually be less bad than the XL trial Stalker.

We could use ELO scores. Oh wait... LOL!

[Almond Brown]

Lexx, on 06 May 2015 - 08:22 AM, said:

stuff
One might say "if the trial mechs were that good, then why would anyone buy their own mechs?"

To that my answer is customization. New players wouldn't be able to customize the trial mechs and I feel most would buy them just for the ability to run whatever they want on them.

That doesn't jive though. If the "Trials" had all those frills and a "good" load-out, it would be the same as a "good Custom build" because it would in fact be a "good Custom Build" already.

P.S. I assume your plan provides these Trials with DHS and ES as well right?

[Fuggles]

FupDup, on 06 May 2015 - 08:49 AM, said:

The XL Stalker might be a draw...

I don't think the stock builds should really be used as the baseline here, because of how poorly optimized/designed many of them are.


This line of thought can be summarized as "I had to suffer, so I want other people to as well!"

nope, just putting in perspective that the champions are a huge step up from the past and in general arent that bad.

my additional point is that new players need to learn to lay the game first, these mechs are at least functional for that.