42 replies to this topic

[Goedmaker]

Not factoring in ammo usage, here are some weapon combos:

2x Light Gauss + 3x PPC = 45 tons, 50 dmg, no ghost heat
2x Gauss + 2x PPC = 44 tons, 50 dmg, ghost heat

1x AC20 + 3x Snub Nose PPC = 32 tons, 50 dmg, no ghost heat
2x AC20 = 28 tons, 40 dmg, ghost heat


For the AC20 combos you could maybe argue there is a difference in heat gen but the gauss combos don't make sense at all to me.

[pbiggz]

I think crit size also factors into this but alot of this stuff is very fluid right now.

[Alex Morgaine]

I dunno.... Try this thought wagon: slots and heat values driving ghost heat:
Weapon slots used:
2B+3E vs 2B+2E more slots vs less
1B+3E vs 2B, much more slots vs less
Individual heat
2low+3high vs 2low+2high, nearly 50% heat generated before spooky heat effects balance.
1mid +3high vs 2mid; this is a little harder to validate but follows the same idea. Just that snubs just got a bit buff recently. honestly I think autocannon GH needs looking at.
Basically with ghost heat, the on paper ideal appears to be that comparable weapons systems combos end up roughly about the same heat/damage/second, though stuff like 2ac20s vs 1ac+3snub are a bit more off. That's just need some toning on the spooky heat multiplier.

[Meep Meep]

pbiggz, on 29 April 2021 - 01:24 PM, said:

but alot of this stuff is very fluid right now.

Yep. Basically since the game is on maintenance xlm edit mode they are using us as the mass testing guinea pigs. Which makes sense as the entire player base is a much larger group than the devs could afford to hire if normal QA methods were being used. Looks like they got it mostly right with maybe triple snub ppc being a bit too strong but that was the easy one to pick out of the changes.

[JediPanther]

I find in dump as bleep we can't dual ac 20 on the kgcs which is their stock load out or on the cptl k2 yet the finir can dual hvy guass you all day long for no heat with ecm and back up pew pew. Just one of the many reasons I stopped playing.

[HammerMaster]

Goedmaker, on 29 April 2021 - 12:33 PM, said:

Not factoring in ammo usage, here are some weapon combos:

2x Light Gauss + 3x PPC = 45 tons, 50 dmg, no ghost heat
2x Gauss + 2x PPC = 44 tons, 50 dmg, ghost heat

1x AC20 + 3x Snub Nose PPC = 32 tons, 50 dmg, no ghost heat
2x AC20 = 28 tons, 40 dmg, ghost heat


For the AC20 combos you could maybe argue there is a difference in heat gen but the gauss combos don't make sense at all to me.

You're implying "ghost heat" ever made sense?

[Alex Morgaine]

No, the way it was implemented ghost heat never would work, +1GHL quirks are really needed all over for it to work, let the stock tt builds function while player built Mechs get the heat issues. GHL quirks can help, but is too little too late now. We have to balance around it whether we like it or not. And most people agree on not

[Meep Meep]

HammerMaster, on 29 April 2021 - 02:25 PM, said:

You're implying "ghost heat" ever made sense?

It was the brute force solution to massive laser vomit and other types of boating back in the day.

[HammerMaster]

Meep Meep, on 29 April 2021 - 02:36 PM, said:

It was the brute force solution to massive laser vomit and other types of boating back in the day.

Yes. I recall. I was there. My solution was stock builds but hey...

[FupDup]

Meep Meep, on 29 April 2021 - 02:36 PM, said:

It was the brute force solution to massive laser vomit and other types of boating back in the day.

It was specifically PPCs that brought it into existence.

[Alex Morgaine]

6ppc stalker :3

[Meep Meep]

FupDup, on 29 April 2021 - 02:48 PM, said:

It was specifically PPCs that brought it into existence.

Yeah that was the boat the broke the balances back but laser vomit was still a big thing too but less dubious due to lack of pinpoint damage if you didn't have rock steady aim.

[Leone]

Goedmaker, on 29 April 2021 - 12:33 PM, said:

2x Light Gauss + 3x PPC = 45 tons, 50 dmg, no ghost heat
2x Gauss + 2x PPC = 44 tons, 50 dmg, ghost heat

Check the patch notes, light gauss got pulled from the ppc+gauss ghost heat equation.

Goedmaker, on 29 April 2021 - 12:33 PM, said:

1x AC20 + 3x Snub Nose PPC = 32 tons, 50 dmg, no ghost heat
2x AC20 = 28 tons, 40 dmg, ghost heat

AC20s haven't been tied to PPC for ghost heat, AC20s do have ghost heat together.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 29 April 2021 - 04:14 PM.

[Scout Derek]

https://www.reddit.c...m_the_cauldron/

Quote

We are now a few days into the gameplay since once of the larger balance patches in MWO history. Feedback so far has been 99% positive. An amazing achievement in no uncertain terms and hopefully the player base appreciates it as well.

I am probably going to get into trouble with the Cauldron for what proceeds here but you know, AUSSIE YOLO. Just kidding.

The Cauldron has been carefully watching streams and all the various mediums - I am not even joking when I say I have watched some 20hrs of gameplay on Twitch already and many others in the Cauldron have done the same and also played a collective 300hrs - easily, probably 600 cause we all nerds.

Enough waffle lets get to the point shall we!

We are looking at the following weapons that have already become clear candidates for adjustments as they are over-performing in various ways:
HPPC

SNPPC

uPL (cMicro Pulse)

Light Gauss

We are also discussing / looking at:
ERL (in lieu of quirk pass, more info later)

cSSRM

So the questions are these:
Are there any comments about the above weapons? The "discussing" part we are still working on ideas so hold out there please - we are aware of various proposals and issues.

Are there any comments about weapons not mentioned?

How do you feel about everything so far? Ideally please have played at least 20 games for a bit of a sample space.

Please post useful feedback and evidence of any sizeable claims or statements. It helps the Cauldron to make informed decisions. A bunch of "omg PPC META is stupid" does not help the discussion and is essentially nonsense.

Remember also consider in your comments the patches forthcoming:

MAY - Mobility.

JUNE - Quirks. (you will all lose your minds, trust thy Cauldron)

Late 2021 - Rescale

[Nayru]

Alex Morgaine, on 29 April 2021 - 02:51 PM, said:

6ppc stalker :3

you have no idea how enthused i am that people remember

ghost heat is an inherently oppressive, lopsiding system that's always going to create kings of builds based on what abuses it the most, and it's never really stopped high alphas, or high pinpoint alphas with the right builds

we've just got particular extra-privileged setups now that screw over other lesser setups because [bad reason]

people want ac20 unlinked from ghost heat for good reason but i get the feeling if they were getting slapped by my twin ac20 triple snub kgc-0000 that is now outright superior to my +30% cbill variants due to the snub change (>2 e hardpoint) for 70 pinpoint without me having to take the ghost heat hit, they would second guess that

and to think i used to just run twin ac20 with an extremely high LE and rely on my ability to crackshot ac20s on fast lights/mediums to carry the setup, kgc is almost good with this cripplingly good setup, but a fnr/anh would do it better

poor fat crob, it gets blown up like no tomorrow in this massive instapinpoint meta 'cause how can you miss it

Edited by Nayru, 29 April 2021 - 06:05 PM.

[Escef]

HammerMaster, on 29 April 2021 - 02:42 PM, said:

Yes. I recall. I was there. My solution was stock builds but hey...

Which would have basically made almost every non-double heat sink mech unable to compete with mechs with double sinks. And lights would make up even less of the queue than they already do. I mean, sure, you fix one problem, but in the process you make bigger ones.

It's just like what happens in table top if you ban custom or customized mechs. The end result is people just use the most min/max'd canon builds they can find. E.g., in a 3rd SW era game with stock mechs only, you will see a disproportionately large number of Grasshoppers and Awesomes.

[feeWAIVER]

Goedmaker, on 29 April 2021 - 12:33 PM, said:

Not factoring in ammo usage, here are some weapon combos:

2x Light Gauss + 3x PPC = 45 tons, 50 dmg, no ghost heat
2x Gauss + 2x PPC = 44 tons, 50 dmg, ghost heat

1x AC20 + 3x Snub Nose PPC = 32 tons, 50 dmg, no ghost heat
2x AC20 = 28 tons, 40 dmg, ghost heat


For the AC20 combos you could maybe argue there is a difference in heat gen but the gauss combos don't make sense at all to me.

The options with no ghost heat are naturally much hotter.

[Y E O N N E]

Goedmaker, on 29 April 2021 - 12:33 PM, said:

Not factoring in ammo usage, here are some weapon combos:

2x Light Gauss + 3x PPC = 45 tons, 50 dmg, no ghost heat
2x Gauss + 2x PPC = 44 tons, 50 dmg, ghost heat

The first build generates 27 heat, the second generates 18 before ghost heat is accounted for. Also, would you take LGauss if normal Gauss could do all the same things? There's not a heck of a lot of ways to tune normal Gauss to be good in a shorter range bracket than LGauss without stepping on some of the ACs, so it has to stay a long-range gun to thrive. At the same time, LGauss needs a party trick to make it something actually worth taking because it's otherwise not light enough to warrant taking over Gauss on any 'Mech that can realistically use it.

Quote

1x AC20 + 3x Snub Nose PPC = 32 tons, 50 dmg, no ghost heat
2x AC20 = 28 tons, 40 dmg, ghost heat

Again, the first build is 26 heat and the second one is only 10 before accounting for ghost heat. But Cauldron agrees the SN-PPC might be a bit over-tuned and will be updating it.

Quote

For the AC20 combos you could maybe argue there is a difference in heat gen but the gauss combos don't make sense at all to me.

Same reason for both.

[mike29tw]

Ghost heat....... never made much sense, but it gets the job done.

It's reactionary and it's arbitrary.

Reactionary because it's introduced after certain builds demolished balance.

Arbitrary because it tried to target specific builds, but more often than not caused collateral damage all around other builds.

I wouldn't try too hard to make sense of it.

[PocketYoda]

2x Heavy Gauss 50 damage no ghost heat..
4x Large Lasers 36 damage ghost heat..
4x Large Pulse lasers 44 damage ghost heat..
2-3 Rac2 or 5s "crazy damage" no ghost heat......................
2x MRM 40s 80 damage ghost heat..
2x MRM30s 60 damage no ghost heat..

Edited by MechaGnome, 30 April 2021 - 02:01 AM.