113 replies to this topic

[CocoaJin]

PPCs should cause temporary, soft ECM effects. Fading target display, intermittent loss of locks...brief symptoms akin to sitting on the fringe of an opposing ECM bubble. Plus disruption of the HUD, not cutting out, just erratic, de-synced, scratchy display. Not so much screen shake, but the cross-hair would be affected to a small degree.

Edited by CocoaJin, 07 May 2015 - 04:41 PM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

I've given up completely on PPC's.

Even on mechs with the velocity boost bringing them back up to the 1150-1200mps range, they're still just too risky for what you get in comparison to quirked LL's on the 75% of other mechs.

ERPPC's, while actually being manageable in Clan mechs, are completely out of reach for every IS mech, quirked or not.
Even the Thunderbolt-9S or Awesome can simply be rushed and outgunned with ease.

I think PGI needs to seriously bring back the Velocity to where it was, deal with the consequences, or start dialing down Lasers on both Quirked IS & Clan weapons.

I think PPC @ 1350 MPS, ERPPC @1400 is a good target area to move them to.

I've always liked the idea of PPC's being a long range flamethrower, meaning some percentage of its heat used to fire is transferred to the target mech, on top of messing up electronic sensors and targeting systems.

I mean come on.. its a freaking bolt of lightning.

[Xetelian]

Mystere, on 07 May 2015 - 07:05 AM, said:

Make PPCs have the following effects on targets:

• ECM disruption (as now)
  
• HUD disruption
  
• % chance of shutdown
  
• heat spike
  
• loss of targetting

basically any EMP-like side effects you can think of.

No stunlocks please >_<

But adding some flavor to the damage wouldn't hurt, most band-**** don't.



What a silly filter for swearing...that is not a cuss word to my understanding

Edited by Xetelian, 07 May 2015 - 10:28 AM.

[Kavoh]

Strum Wealh, on 07 May 2015 - 09:23 AM, said:

As a point of clarification:

• Reflective Armor reduces the damage taken against energy weapons, but it has the same performance as Standard armor against ballistic and missile-type weapons & takes double damage against melee attacks, falling, and artillery strikes.
  
• Reactive Armor reduces the damage taken from missile-type weapons, but has the same performance as Standard armor against energy and ballistic weapons & is subject to self-destructing when it takes a critical hit.

There isn't an "anti-ballistic armor" in the same sense as Reflective armor is "anti-energy armor" or Reactive Armor is "anti-missile armor", save for those armor types that have a universal damage resistance (namely, Hardened Armor (reduced all damage by half) and Ferro-Lamellor Armor ("reduces damage by 1 point for every five points (or fraction of 5 points) delivered, to a minimum of 0")).


At this point in MWO's timeline ("early 3050s"), the only armor types available to the IS would be Standard, FF, and Hardened, while the Clans would have only Standard and FF.
The availability of the different armor types can also be seen here.

Some of the new Kurita Mechs with Ballistic-Reinforced Armor would like to have a word with you.

[Joseph Mallan]

Paigan, on 07 May 2015 - 06:14 AM, said:

As PPCs compared to lasers currently are, they are only really good (better than ERLL) as a siege weapon.
Long range, but horribly inefficient against moving targets.
That would be fine if we had assaults on heavily fortified bases or dropships.
PPCs mechs (e.g. Warhawk) would be some kind of siege catapults then.

Sadly, we do not have such a situation, so PPCs compared to lasers are inferior to the point of laugh and pain.
(Try a sniper duel with ERLL against a PPC mech. You'll laugh your ass off and he'll retreat).

Also sadly, Battletech does not know sophisticated balancing / niching mechanisms like different armor types, damage types, subtractive armor, etc. (see Starcraft or almost any other game as a reference).

So here's my suggestion to tinker our own niche inside the BT(+MWO) ruleset to make PPCs are viable alternative to lasers.
Meaning not better, not worse, but different, with their own niche.

Suggestions:
1.) Higher velocity. On that almost everyone currently agrees, afaik.
2.) make the damage be distributed even further accross the mech. Not just 2 or 3 components, but the whole mech or so. Like 5 packets with 2 (IS) or 3 (Clans) damage each.
3.) give PPCs a significantly higher critical hit chance than lasers have. Maybe even decrease that of lasers. Would be even plausible from a realism point of view.

Maybe:
4.) maybe add additional "special effects" like the ECM disruption. Maybe a tiny temporary slowing, MASC disruption, short GUI blackouts for the hit player (would be funny )
5.) also maybe make their damage falloff better and/or remove ghost heat, but those are minor points.

The important part is: they would do a lot of damage and crits, but suck at surgically coring components.

That way, lasers and PPCs would both have viable, even complementary roles:
Lasers are pinpoint, focussed damage, "open them up" weapons
PPCs would be more like a energy special weapon, bad at opening armor, but easily causing criticals and nasty side effects on the targets.

As skilled player with PPCs and lasers would be superior to an equally skilled player using only lasers or only PPCs.
Isn't that what is generally desired?

[Mystere]

Paigan, on 07 May 2015 - 07:24 AM, said:

I would sign all of those except chance of shutdown, how ever small that chance would be.
It's a nice idea, being an electronic overload effect and stuff, but it's just too devastating in combat, especially 1on1

Xetelian, on 07 May 2015 - 10:26 AM, said:

No stunlocks please >_<

Wussies.

[Gas Guzzler]

Paigan, on 07 May 2015 - 09:14 AM, said:

Please read the proposal again. Sorry for the long text. Thank you :-)

I did. You are trying to make them like one of the most ineffective weapons in the game. LBXs also have spread damage and high crit chance. They LBXs are not "as good but different" than ACs, they are just worse, that is why no smart player would use them for anything other than derping.

Like seriously, how do you think making them like LBXs is a way to make them more used then they are now? LBXs suck and are not used in competitive play. Spread PPCs would also suck and would not be used in competitive play.

This is really not complicated guys, PPCs just need a bit of a velocity increase. Not where they were before, but faster than they are now. The problem is you will get some yahoos in here that will say "but if PPCs are any more effective they will instantly become OP!"

[Joseph Mallan]

The proper niche for a PPC is on the battlefield!

[MATRAKA14]

The niche of the ppcs are the K2 and Awesomes, looking at the number of those mechs that you can see in the field you can see the current situation of the weapon.

Edited by MATRAKA14, 07 May 2015 - 10:43 AM.

[Paigan]

WM Quicksilver, on 07 May 2015 - 09:31 AM, said:

No, he is right, this is a huge nerf, critical chance isn't a large enough reason to use a splash weapon like this. Streaks would be better than the PPC if it were like this (so in other words nothing would change). If you are gonna create a splash weapon, it needs to have a high damage potential to even be considered (so around 2 to 2.5 times what you listed) and just drop the crit chance, it is a gimmick that needs to stop being used to try and balance weapons.

Okay then you please read the proposal again as well.
Let me elaborate (again):

1.) The damage would still be there. Think of it like an LRM-15. No one says LRM-15 is crap because the damage is distributed. Multiple hits would still do a lot of damage overall on a mech, getting multiple components to become critical eventually.
2.) Critical chance IS considerable if it is high enough
3.) There would be additional effects, there are more than enough suggestions in the thread.
4.) Velocity would be higher than it is now.

Don't just read "distributed damage - nerf - I don't like it"
This is short-sighted.
Read and understand the whole package.

Edited by Paigan, 07 May 2015 - 10:52 AM.

[Nightmare1]

I say either restore PPCs back to the way they were or substantially reduce the heat they generate. ERPPCs are a joke while standards are barely palatable now. Nerfing them through the floor was one of the greatest mistakes PGI ever made!

[Almond Brown]

Kavoh, on 07 May 2015 - 10:27 AM, said:

Some of the new Kurita Mechs with Ballistic-Reinforced Armor would like to have a word with you.

Quote

As a point of clarification:Reflective Armor reduces the damage taken against energy weapons, but it has the same performance as Standard armor against ballistic and missile-type weapons & takes double damage against melee attacks, falling, and artillery strikes.

And to re-clarify on that clarification. I will not, nor will I be coerced, no matter how subtly, into replacing my currently upgraded armor back to Standard just so I can see the difference if/when Reflective Armor is available. lol

Edited by Almond Brown, 07 May 2015 - 10:58 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Mystere, on 07 May 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

Wussies.

Think "Dragon Bowling" Mystere'. "Fun" for the Dragon. Not so much for its "victim(s)". LOL!

[Almond Brown]

Paigan, on 07 May 2015 - 10:51 AM, said:

Okay then you please read the proposal again as well.
Let me elaborate (again):

1.) The damage would still be there. Think of it like an LRM-15. No one says LRM-15 is crap because the damage is distributed. Multiple hits would still do a lot of damage overall on a mech, getting multiple components to become critical eventually.
2.) Critical chance IS considerable if it is high enough
3.) There would be additional effects, there are more than enough suggestions in the thread.
4.) Velocity would be higher than it is now.

Don't just read "distributed damage - nerf - I don't like it"
This is short-sighted.
Read and understand the whole package.

A100% Crit chance means 0% chance until armor is removed. Would suck to have to wait around with a long range 10 pt. weapon until everyone else did the heavy lifting to get some real work done. Same issue already exists with the LBX and MG style weapons apparently.

Edited by Almond Brown, 07 May 2015 - 11:06 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Mister D, on 07 May 2015 - 10:10 AM, said:

I've given up completely on PPC's.

Even on  mechs with the velocity boost bringing them back up to the 1150-1200mps range, they're still just too risky for what you get in comparison to quirked LL's on the 75% of other mechs.

ERPPC's, while actually being manageable in Clan mechs, are completely out of reach for every IS mech, quirked or not.
Even the Thunderbolt-9S or Awesome can simply be rushed and outgunned with ease.

I think PGI needs to seriously bring back the Velocity to where it was, deal with the consequences, or start dialing down Lasers on both Quirked IS & Clan weapons.

I think PPC @ 1350 MPS, ERPPC @1400 is a good target area to move them to.

I've always liked the idea of PPC's being a long range flamethrower, meaning some percentage of its heat used to fire is transferred to the target mech, on top of messing up electronic sensors and targeting systems.

I mean come on.. its a freaking bolt of lightning.

Not only PPCs suffer from it. Autocannons are in the same boat...plus are ammo dependent. Each shot is precious

[Spleenslitta]

I think the PPC's are fine and i've tried both IS PPC's and the clan version.
Spread the damage? No way. That's why i use the PPC's so much. They deliver pinpoint damage in a decently lightweight package.

But up the velocity? Yeah...maybe by 15-20%. Any more and the dev's would nerf the PPC's in some other way.
There are plenty of mechs with velocity quirks.
As for the proposal of making it a weapon less capable against armor but more against internals?
No way. The IS PPC has that 90 meters minimum range thing allready. We don't need another nerf on that weapon.

What needs to be fixed urgently? The hit registration needs a look over badly.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Paigan, on 07 May 2015 - 10:51 AM, said:

Okay then you please read the proposal again as well.
Let me elaborate (again):

1.) The damage would still be there. Think of it like an LRM-15. No one says LRM-15 is crap because the damage is distributed. Multiple hits would still do a lot of damage overall on a mech, getting multiple components to become critical eventually.
2.) Critical chance IS considerable if it is high enough
3.) There would be additional effects, there are more than enough suggestions in the thread.
4.) Velocity would be higher than it is now.

Don't just read "distributed damage - nerf - I don't like it"
This is short-sighted.
Read and understand the whole package.

1. LRM15s are a bad comparison because they are bad weapons and don't function like any direct fire.
2. It would have to be much higher than the LBX to be even considered, and that weapon is bad. Granted this idea would beat LBX at most ranges.
3. Unless it has a significant impact on gameplay other than soft ECM or HUD counters, it will still be bad. Even a HUD fizzle wouldn't work that well given we have a laser meta. Lasers not only do damage but function as good tracers for things like Gauss.
4. Good velocity doesn't make up for a flawed weapon. LBX could be hit scan and they would still probably be bad (and also would require lag shooting because of this).

What you don't seem to understand, is that while you are doing more damage overall, your damage is not concentrated. This is the reason PPFLD is so powerful, it is concentrated damage. If a weapon lacks the concentration of better FLD weapons, it must have higher damage potential to make up for this. The advantage of damage potential over PPFLD varies depending on how the weapon deals damage, and for a weapon that equally distributes damage across the mech it must have very high damage potential because it can never be focused unlike burst weapons like lasers and CUACs which have SOME potential to line up and hit the same component. The damage would probably be better set at 4 per section, and just drop all the extra bells and whistles because these do little to make the weapon useful against better opponents.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 07 May 2015 - 11:42 AM.

[Burktross]

Wait.... damage packets in addition to pinpoint?
Otherwise it's a waste of tonnage and would function as a hot LBX

[Gas Guzzler]

K.I.S.S. guys

PPCs don't want fancy mechanics. They were designed to be the energy deathballs of Battletech that effectively did twice the damage that they do in this game.

All it needs is velocity tuning.

[LordKnightFandragon]

HARDKOR, on 07 May 2015 - 06:18 AM, said:

Up the speed and make it more like an LBX = totally serviceable idea. That way you can still hit at close range and it's not the ultra sniper weapon, but you can still hit them.

Thought Cry engine doesnt support weapons like LBX well, its why SRM, CERPPC and the like have such shoddy hit reg issues....

SO no, the PPC just needs to be made a deadly, long range, hard hitting, hot energy weapon.