113 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

Perhaps I jumped the gun. The Flamer is actually incredibly reliable...

...

...at being useless.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Yeonne Greene, on 08 May 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:

Perhaps I jumped the gun. The Flamer is actually incredibly reliable...

...

...at being useless.

See, but PPCs, they suck, to hot, to unreliably hit detecty......to slow of velocity....just the sux.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yeonne Greene, on 08 May 2015 - 12:16 PM, said:

One thing I find hilarious is that the description on Sarna for the PPC is a lot more realistic than what we have in the games. I don't even know why we shoot fuzzballs in the games, when we could have a weapon that takes a split second to charge and fire a very short duration beam, exploding on target for 10 points at the expense of a lot of heat and slow cycle time.

I would be ok with this, long range pulse laser with a little bit of splash damage, yes please, even if it requires a short charge up similar to the Gauss.

[Leone]

Tombstoner, on 08 May 2015 - 09:24 AM, said:

If a 4 ppc alpha can have all 4 shots hit the same pixel at max range why cant the weapon handle/ calculate the lead for me.

If you want your weapons to auto hit for you, I believe you are playing the wrong game. Might I suggest EVE online, or some other MMO where in all you need to do is hit a button and have the game shoot everything for you?

~Leone, Raid Leader of the Crimson Hand.

[Y E O N N E]

LordKnightFandragon, on 08 May 2015 - 12:55 PM, said:

See, but PPCs, they suck, to hot, to unreliably hit detecty......to slow of velocity....just the sux.

Velocity needs a buff and heat needs looked at, but I don't seem to be having the hit-reg problems. On 'Mechs like the BJ-3, though, they are a total blast to use...all puns intended.

WM Quicksilver, on 08 May 2015 - 12:55 PM, said:

I would be ok with this, long range pulse laser with a little bit of splash damage, yes please, even if it requires a short charge up similar to the Gauss.

Personally, I think it would be cool as hell just from an aesthetic standpoint. I also don't think they'd require any heat buffs like this, either, since they'd be hit-scan weapons that dump all of their damage in a beam lasting 0.25 seconds or so. That makes them incredibly powerful. In fact, they'd probably need to have their cool-down raised to somewhere between 4.25 and 5 seconds to stop spam.

[Quaamik]

Malleus011, on 07 May 2015 - 07:05 AM, said:

PPCs of both types, bigger ACs, Gauss, LPL, and both types of LL should all be in the same boat - they can, by themselves, work as the primary weapons system of a Medium 'mech - a main gun. (backed up by lighter secondary weapons) A heavy can sometimes mount two of these (or more), and an Assault three (or more). A light can manage one with some sacrifices.

All of these weapons need to be viable as a main gun, but different enough that the 'mech mounting them needs to fight with different strategies.

.....

I'd argue that just like the AC / LBX 10s and up, bigger two LRMs (15s & 20s) and the SRM6 and SSRM6 should be viable as a "main gun". Basicly anything that will deliver 10 points or more with a single hit. I'd except LRM10s because its seldom that all 10 missiles hit.

Tweaks to each weapons group should include things that point it at a defined range and role. A weapon good at long or extreme ranges should have handicaps at close range. Not be unusable, but be less effective. Like the Clan LRMs, where damage reduces below minimum range. Or the high heat & slow recharge of the PPC family that hampers it in a brawl against faster firing weapons.

Currently the PPC family (PPC/ERPPC/CERPPC) suffer because they are not terribly good at ANY range. Too slow a velocity for long range, too high heat for sustained use at medium range, too high a heat and slow firing for brawling, and louse hit registration to boot. Any fix has to define a best use and fix the hit registration.

For the hit registration, its worst is the C-ERPPC. That leads me to believe that "spreading the damage" is causing it. So if that damage spread code cant be fixed, I see only three solutions. Make it damage ALL components every time, or make it several projectiles (burst fire)or return it to single component pinpoint. Of the them, I think the single component would be easier to code. If need be, reduce the damage - and heat - of the C-ERPPC.

Personally, I think the PPC family should be best suited to a long range weapon, with it becoming increasingly harder to effectively use as the ranges shrink. To do that, the velocity has to increase. Approaching or equaling Gauss. A hard coded prevention from teaming Gauss and PPC to fire together would need to be in effect.

Some are afraid of PPCs being the ultimate sniping weapon and dominating. Don't be. Two C-ERPPCs fired together produce 30 damage. The same as two Gauss. 3 C-ERPPCs may need to be addressed, but their heat + a bit of tweaking to ghost heat could fix that. They only need to be de coupled as long as the 3 Gauss builds are now with the "only two can charge" mechanic. On top of it, that big glowing stream tends to point out where you fired from.

Slight tweaks to recharge time could give them the close range weakness to overcome the long range advantages.

As for effects, I'm all for them. Shutting down ECM is already their greatest long range advantage. Any or all of the following could add to that:
- Add heat to the target (2 - 4 points)
- Make target lose target lock and have to regain it. This could be as slight as losing missile lock or as extensive as losing all target designation.
- HUD shake on impact. This should be a slight flicker.
- A burst of speaker static. While not a real affect on the mech, it helps immersion.
- Make the mech shudder / stumble if they are over a certain speed (I'm thinking around 80 kph). That would actually help IS mechs against Timbers and Crows, and Clan mechs against IS lights. The shudder / stumble could be adjusted to where it was enough to throw off aim, but not enough to make the mech an easy target.

All these effects, and the velocity increase should be added gradually. That way they can stop the before they swing the PPC family into an "overpowered" position.

Edited by Quaamik, 08 May 2015 - 03:32 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Yeonne Greene, on 08 May 2015 - 02:43 PM, said:

Velocity needs a buff and heat needs looked at, but I don't seem to be having the hit-reg problems. On 'Mechs like the BJ-3, though, they are a total blast to use...all puns intended.

Then ill chalk all the kills ive lost due to PPCs to their **** dmg output, terrible terrain collision and the fact i was on a PC getting 13FPS......

Ofc, the couple kills I lost the other day, that is to Terrain collision.....well, air collision anyway.

If PGI gives the CERPPC 12 or 13 dmg, but lets it keep the high heat and quirks certain mechs, and improves base velocity....it might be a good gun.

Give the ISERPPC better heat, 15 down to 12, then it can fire enough to let the IS get in their lower dmg per shot, better heat efficiency paradigm in. Regular PPC can stay a 10/10. But improve base velocity on them all.

Ive seen a few PPC BJs, they rattle off those guns like a boss. Had one on my side once....saved my ass from a Nova and a Timby =D

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 08 May 2015 - 04:04 PM.

[Quaamik]

Yeonne Greene, on 08 May 2015 - 02:43 PM, said:

Velocity needs a buff and heat needs looked at, but I don't seem to be having the hit-reg problems. On 'Mechs like the BJ-3, though, they are a total blast to use...all puns intended.

The hit registry issues seem to be mainly on the C-ERPPC. That's why I think its the damage spread. Im consistently getting a ping in the 40 50 ms range, occasionaly lower, and fps rates ranging from 28 to 50. Yet I started replacing mine with lasers when I shot a shut down MadDog in the same side torso 7 times from around 250 meters and only turned the side torso yellow. Yet after he restarted, another mech cut him apart with lasers is a brief brawl.

Edited by Quaamik, 08 May 2015 - 04:32 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

LordKnightFandragon, on 08 May 2015 - 04:03 PM, said:

Then ill chalk all the kills ive lost due to PPCs to their **** dmg output, terrible terrain collision and the fact i was on a PC getting 13FPS......

Ofc, the couple kills I lost the other day, that is to Terrain collision.....well, air collision anyway.

If PGI gives the CERPPC 12 or 13 dmg, but lets it keep the high heat and quirks certain mechs, and improves base velocity....it might be a good gun.

Give the ISERPPC better heat, 15 down to 12, then it can fire enough to let the IS get in their lower dmg per shot, better heat efficiency paradigm in. Regular PPC can stay a 10/10. But improve base velocity on them all.

Ive seen a few PPC BJs, they rattle off those guns like a boss. Had one on my side once....saved my ass from a Nova and a Timby =D

Was that game recent? It might have been me, since we've been in a few matches together over the last week and I've been absolutely whoring the BJ-3. A regular ~500 very precise damage like a boss!

The ERPPC + PPC build is a new discovery for me, meant initially as a troll build but turning out to be really, really good. With an XL engine and heavy guns, it pretty much goes against everything I typically preach about the Blackjack.

As for the PPC changes, I think the regular PPC is still too hot at 10/10, especially for being such a short-ranged weapon. 540 m looks like a lot, but at 540 m you are competing directly with the more damage-to-heat efficient Large Lasers, Large Pulse Lasers, Clan ER Medium Lasers, and AC/10. You also have to keep them 90 m away, which means you typically need to have your mech move faster. All of these things conspire to make a 10-heat PPC on just about any 'Mech something of a novelty that takes up way more resources than is justified by its utility.

I think 8 heat is a really good spot for it, but no lower under any circumstance.

Quaamik, on 08 May 2015 - 04:31 PM, said:

The hit registry issues seem to be mainly on the C-ERPPC. That's why I think its the damage spread. Im consistently getting a ping in the 40 50 ms range, occasionaly lower, and fps rates ranging from 28 to 50. Yet I started replacing mine with lasers when I shot a shut down MadDog in the same side torso 7 times from around 250 meters and only turned the side torso yellow. Yet after he restarted, another mech cut him apart with lasers is a brief brawl.

I got nothin' for you, man. The doll doesn't always flash when you hit with your weapons, but the damage is still there. It does the same thing in Testing Grounds, and it trips you out when using rapid-fire weapons like AC/2 and UAC/5. I did have a WTF moment a couple of days ago when I was shooting at a cherry DWF side torso with an IS ERPPC and it didn't seem to take a hit despite him not even bothering to twist. That's a one-time occurrence and, personally, I'm gonna blame the doofus yelling at me in team chat to shoot the torso...because I can and because I think that was the game just giving him a dose of karma.

My pings are the same as yours.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 08 May 2015 - 05:01 PM.

[CocoaJin]

Yeonne Greene, on 08 May 2015 - 12:16 PM, said:

One thing I find hilarious is that the description on Sarna for the PPC is a lot more realistic than what we have in the games. I don't even know why we shoot fuzzballs in the games, when we could have a weapon that takes a split second to charge and fire a very short duration beam, exploding on target for 10 points at the expense of a lot of heat and slow cycle time.

Maybe the visuals we have in game is the energized bow wave of the ambient air as the short duration pulse travels through it...not so much the actual pulse. Considering the speed of the pulse, the air expanding and luminous would bulge like an arrow head as it struggles to get out of the way of the beam, and then settles back into the void within its wake.

Maybe, the PPC impact and effects we see is just the visuals of the heated air colliding with the mech...the actual PPC damage being delivered a split second before, too fast for us to descern.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Yeonne Greene, on 08 May 2015 - 04:55 PM, said:

Was that game recent? It might have been me, since we've been in a few matches together over the last week and I've been absolutely whoring the BJ-3. A regular ~500 very precise damage like a boss!

The ERPPC + PPC build is a new discovery for me, meant initially as a troll build but turning out to be really, really good. With an XL engine and heavy guns, it pretty much goes against everything I typically preach about the Blackjack.

As for the PPC changes, I think the regular PPC is still too hot at 10/10, especially for being such a short-ranged weapon. 540 m looks like a lot, but at 540 m you are competing directly with the more damage-to-heat efficient Large Lasers, Large Pulse Lasers, Clan ER Medium Lasers, and AC/10. You also have to keep them 90 m away, which means you typically need to have your mech move faster. All of these things conspire to make a 10-heat PPC on just about any 'Mech something of a novelty that takes up way more resources than is justified by its utility.

It was a month or so ago. On Viridian Bog. I was on my Zeus on my IS Acct, CptGier...walked around a corner into a Timby, Nova and some other little mech, then backed up as a BJ with PPCs walked up and started going hog wild on them. I turned around and helped out haha. IDK if it was you. Mighta been.

[Y E O N N E]

Nah, I didn't have my BJ-3 equipped with two PPCs a month ago, only one and a set of four medium lasers on a standard engine. Truth be told, that's still probably a much better build, but it's nowhere near as fun.

CocoaJin, on 08 May 2015 - 05:39 PM, said:

Maybe the visuals we have in game is the energized bow wave of the ambient air as the short duration pulse travels through it...not so much the actual pulse. Considering the speed of the pulse, the air expanding and luminous would bulge like an arrow head as it struggles to get out of the way of the beam, and then settles back into the void within its wake.

Maybe, the PPC impact and effects we see is just the visuals of the heated air colliding with the mech...the actual PPC damage being delivered a split second before, too fast for us to descern.

The beam is near-instantaneous (i.e. 99.99% the speed of light), and the air around it might either glow or go all wavy, but it's not like the pressure head in a pipe undergoing hammer effect, which is what you are describing.

As for the impact effects, you might get sparks and the stuff below the surface going boom will make for some cool fireworks.

[Soy]

LordKnightFandragon, on 08 May 2015 - 12:38 PM, said:

Yes, their niche is being the most useless and unreliable weapons in the game.

lol@u

[LordKnightFandragon]

Soy, on 08 May 2015 - 06:15 PM, said:

lol@u

Sheeit, I lol@PPCs.....ive used them in many games, which is why my Warhawk is only now like 9 kills ahead of its deaths,......I fire and fire and fire and hit and hit and nothing dies with those stupid things...

Put the 4x LPL on it, I get like 25 kills in 10 games.....my WHK is now ahead in wins and kills since 4x LPL....

[Soy]

lot of games eh cool story

do ur thing man, no reason to fite

[Nightshade24]

Paigan, on 07 May 2015 - 06:14 AM, said:

As PPCs compared to lasers currently are, they are only really good (better than ERLL) as a siege weapon.
Long range, but horribly inefficient against moving targets.
That would be fine if we had assaults on heavily fortified bases or dropships.
PPCs mechs (e.g. Warhawk) would be some kind of siege catapults then.

Sadly, we do not have such a situation, so PPCs compared to lasers are inferior to the point of laugh and pain.
(Try a sniper duel with ERLL against a PPC mech. You'll laugh your ass off and he'll retreat).

Also sadly, Battletech does not know sophisticated balancing / niching mechanisms like different armor types, damage types, subtractive armor, etc. (see Starcraft or almost any other game as a reference).

So here's my suggestion to tinker our own niche inside the BT(+MWO) ruleset to make PPCs are viable alternative to lasers.
Meaning not better, not worse, but different, with their own niche.

Suggestions:
1.) Higher velocity. On that almost everyone currently agrees, afaik.
2.) make the damage be distributed even further accross the mech. Not just 2 or 3 components, but the whole mech or so. Like 5 packets with 2 (IS) or 3 (Clans) damage each.
3.) give PPCs a significantly higher critical hit chance than lasers have. Maybe even decrease that of lasers. Would be even plausible from a realism point of view.

Maybe:
4.) maybe add additional "special effects" like the ECM disruption. Maybe a tiny temporary slowing, MASC disruption, short GUI blackouts for the hit player (would be funny )
5.) also maybe make their damage falloff better and/or remove ghost heat, but those are minor points.

The important part is: they would do a lot of damage and crits, but suck at surgically coring components.

That way, lasers and PPCs would both have viable, even complementary roles:
Lasers are pinpoint, focussed damage, "open them up" weapons
PPCs would be more like a energy special weapon, bad at opening armor, but easily causing criticals and nasty side effects on the targets.

As skilled player with PPCs and lasers would be superior to an equally skilled player using only lasers or only PPCs.
Isn't that what is generally desired?

I) It just takes practice to hit enemies with, I hit enemies rather fine with PPC's (that and if PPC's suck due to travel time would SRM's, AC 2 to 20, and other ballistic weapons also suck due to this rule?)
I)b: So what you saying is the Catapult K2 is like a Catapult?

II) Only if the er large laser mech is overly quirked / a fast light mech ^^

III) Ahem...
Standard armour:
(generic armour)

Ferro Fibrous armour:
(takes more space, but it is lighter)

Reflective armour:
(takes less damage from energy weapons*, about same weight as standard but much more expensive and I think takes space)

Reactive armour:
(takes less daamge from ammo based weapons, ^)

Stealth armour:
(combined with ecm and other electronics, this basicly makes a mech completely invisible to sensors, a raven with stealth armour can stand 20 meters in front of you yet still no ui.)

Primitive armour:
(out dated armour, very poor, makes standard look like a god)

Commercial armour:
(used typically on agricultural and industrial mechs and vehicles)

About all armour types within a decade I believe.
If you ask me that's quite a bit of range.


IV) Suggestions:
1) Agreed, do not over do it, but a small buff is nice. tweak velocity quirks on most IS mechs after this (especially cicada and thunderbolt 9S)
2) Eeeh... no. People are begging for Clans to be like the IS PPC's by lossing the splash damage for pinpoint damage. (ie clans getting 15 damage er ppc's.)
3) Maybe? technically speaking it's already much better at doing critical damage as a laser doing a critical is just the split second of it (ie 0.4 damage in critical) while a PPC does its' 10 damage total as one (so it can knock out an enemy AC 20 in 1 hit with a critical)

4) https://youtu.be/APd_B_xZuTk?t=3m29s like right here? For a few seconds your hug is glitching and such. (Also masc could possibly be very harsh already, I do not think MASC disruption would be the best thing as using it to much will do it itself anyway and worse; disabling your mech)
5) removing ghost heat? do you want to live in a game mode where a direstar or a direstalker would able to kill the entire enemy team of 12 mechs in 12 alphas? (I wouldn't mind if say some mechs ie stalker can use 3 without ghost heat but... no ghost heat? yea-nah, ghost heats whole reason of existing is for the PPC spam)

V) personally ppc's only advantage is that it's the only PINPOINT Direct fire weapon that doesn't use ammo or is an energy weapon. I think keeping it that way will keep it iconic and have an advantage.

VI) Lasers have a beam durration that easily spreads damage, reffer back to point (5)




Edit: that's not me in the video, I just youtube search a video of the Solaris VII heavy match in the jungle arena because 3 of those mechs are 'hero' black knights (3 ER PPC's each), 1 of them is a stock one (2 ppc, 2 large laser, 1 medium) and 1 "hero" is modifide summoner (2 Cl LBX 20, 1 x LBX 10) so this match would be a guaranteed hit by ppc's.

Edited by Nightshade24, 08 May 2015 - 08:00 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Nightshade24, on 08 May 2015 - 07:55 PM, said:

I) It just takes practice to hit enemies with, I hit enemies rather fine with PPC's (that and if PPC's suck due to travel time would SRM's, AC 2 to 20, and other ballistic weapons also suck due to this rule?)
I)b: So what you saying is the Catapult K2 is like a Catapult?

THe thing with ACs and low velocity, is atleast they dont deal a crippling amount of heat, making it not as painful when you miss. Yes, you drain your ammo, but atleast you can keep firing.

PPCs have bad velocity, are hard to hit with and are hot as hell.....they need to do one or the other, good damage or good speed.....maybe with 1500ms velocity like they used to have they might be fine as they are....

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 08 May 2015 - 10:01 PM.

[Soy]

Nightshade24, on 08 May 2015 - 07:55 PM, said:

https://youtu.be/APd_B_xZuTk?t=3m29s

"...bam... You're goin down... Oh yes, I love guys with huge torsos..."

[Nightshade24]

Soy, on 08 May 2015 - 10:09 PM, said:

"...bam... You're goin down... Oh yes, I love guys with huge torsos..."

Well now that you have said that...

LordKnightFandragon, on 08 May 2015 - 10:01 PM, said:

THe thing with ACs and low velocity, is atleast they dont deal a crippling amount of heat, making it not as painful when you miss. Yes, you drain your ammo, but atleast you can keep firing.

PPCs have bad velocity, are hard to hit with and are hot as hell.....they need to do one or the other, good damage or good speed.....maybe with 1500ms velocity like they used to have they might be fine as they are....

PPC's are not hot on quite a few builds and/ or maps. And that ammo is quite scarce for some mechs, especially in CW.

And unlike say... AC 5 ammo, the Heatsinks used to keep the PPC cool works for also your other weapons (ammo or not). so your medium lasers, your SRM's, your AC 5's, etc are all now 'colder' with the extra heatsink.

last time I check a large laser or SRM 6 or Gauss rifle doesn't benifit from an AC 5 ammo. (another thing to mention: heatsinks do not explode when crited.)

Not saying Ac's are bad but this seems like a pretty ballanced situation ;here

[LordKnightFandragon]

Nightshade24, on 08 May 2015 - 10:24 PM, said:

Well now that you have said that...



PPC's are not hot on quite a few builds and/ or maps. And that ammo is quite scarce for some mechs, especially in CW.

And unlike say... AC 5 ammo, the Heatsinks used to keep the PPC cool works for also your other weapons (ammo or not). so your medium lasers, your SRM's, your AC 5's, etc are all now 'colder' with the extra heatsink.

last time I check a large laser or SRM 6 or Gauss rifle doesn't benifit from an AC 5 ammo. (another thing to mention: heatsinks do not explode when crited.)

Not saying Ac's are bad but this seems like a pretty ballanced situation ;here

Yet PPCs are out DPSd on heat in every situation. If your PPCs are running cool, your lasers are running cooler.....

And while yeah, your Acs and MLs are kept cool by those heat sinks, you wont nearly as many to keep smaller weapons cool, giving more space for armor, other guns, ammo, w/e else. PPCs, atleast ERs, require amazing amounts of DHS to give you even any kind of consecutive shots wihtout shutting down. WHK with 28 mastered can only do 8 single shots and 2 dual shots before being at 90%+ heat. And the WHK gets 13.8heat CERPPCs... Any lesser mech can basically not fire enough to even matter. And dealing only 10 dmg for that insane heat just makes them that much worse. Low velocity to boot?

ITs just an all around cluster fk that makes PPCs bad. Sure, sometimes you can pull off good games, but as a whole, they blow.