113 replies to this topic

[Nightshade24]

LordKnightFandragon, on 08 May 2015 - 10:48 PM, said:

Yet PPCs are out DPSd on heat in every situation. If your PPCs are running cool, your lasers are running cooler.....

And while yeah, your Acs and MLs are kept cool by those heat sinks, you wont nearly as many to keep smaller weapons cool, giving more space for armor, other guns, ammo, w/e else. PPCs, atleast ERs, require amazing amounts of DHS to give you even any kind of consecutive shots wihtout shutting down. WHK with 28 mastered can only do 8 single shots and 2 dual shots before being at 90%+ heat. And the WHK gets 13.8heat CERPPCs... Any lesser mech can basically not fire enough to even matter. And dealing only 10 dmg for that insane heat just makes them that much worse. Low velocity to boot?

ITs just an all around cluster fk that makes PPCs bad. Sure, sometimes you can pull off good games, but as a whole, they blow.

Quirks can make a PPC run cooler then lasers, and PPC's do the pinpoint hits at range which lasers fail to do (in most players hands a er large laser just spreads damage across 5 components due to the fact the enemy is moving)

and also the flamer and machine gun has the highest DPS for there heat and tonnage but you do not see people dumping large pulse lasers and AC 5's for those.

And it isn't a "sometimes" good games. As I am nearing my 150 mech mark I wanted to do more PPC's lately and they work out well on my timberwolf (the D, kept it 100% stock), the warhawk prime (100% stock version of Warhawk Tarra), and the Direwolf (got a Direwolf A with 2 S torsos. 3 er mediums 1 er ppc and 1 uac 5 in each torso, and 1 srm 6 etc). In fact that direwolf is one of my main faves at the current moment.

[Quaamik]

For an idea how gimped the C-ERPPCs are, I rebuilt my almost mastered Timber to use 3 CERPPCs in the shoulder rather than 3 CERLLs and played last night.

Positives: It was fun. I could pop over fire and drop back easier. I could keep in cover more consistantly, lasting longer each game. Often I was one of the last mechs to die if my team lost.

Negatives: my average damage delt was around 1/2 to 2/3 normal. In an entire evening of playing - perhaps 6-8 games - I got 2 kills. Normally my K/D ratio is close to 1/1. Time after time I achieved triple hits on the torso of a mech, sometimes several times in a match, without doing enough damage to destroy a componant. Totaling the number of hit I visuslly had and comparing it to my damage numbers for a match I was dealing about 1/2 to 2/3 the damage I should have.

Edited by Quaamik, 09 May 2015 - 04:55 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Nightshade24, on 09 May 2015 - 02:04 AM, said:

Quirks can make a PPC run cooler then lasers, and PPC's do the pinpoint hits at range which lasers fail to do (in most players hands a er large laser just spreads damage across 5 components due to the fact the enemy is moving)

and also the flamer and machine gun has the highest DPS for there heat and tonnage but you do not see people dumping large pulse lasers and AC 5's for those.

And it isn't a "sometimes" good games. As I am nearing my 150 mech mark I wanted to do more PPC's lately and they work out well on my timberwolf (the D, kept it 100% stock), the warhawk prime (100% stock version of Warhawk Tarra), and the Direwolf (got a Direwolf A with 2 S torsos. 3 er mediums 1 er ppc and 1 uac 5 in each torso, and 1 srm 6 etc). In fact that direwolf is one of my main faves at the current moment.

Lol, you dont see people dumping LPL and stuff for MGs cuz MGs, while might be the highest DPS, dont deal enough damage per shot with that DPS to be good.

Its kinda like the Planetside 2 EM1 vs say, the EM6, both New Conglomerate Machineguns for the Heavy. EM1 is 143dmg@652RpM while the EM6 is 167@600RpM. On paper the EM1 looks good cuz it fires fast, while the EM6 might seem like it fires to slow, but the EM6 is actually a perfect balance of ROF to Damage while the EM1 fires to slowly for its damage outpuit per bullet.

Its the same story here between PPC and Lasers. PPCs heat/velocity/damage are not good enough against the ROF you can sustain with them. Lasers might be spread, but you can sustain the ROF on them and they do good damage, it seems more reliable. I played 40 some games with 4x CERPPC, I was trying to learn 2 play wiht them, but they just suck. I fire and fire and fire and fire into mechs but nothing happens on the other end. I had a build of 2LL/2LPL/1ASRM6 and I had a few 500-700dmg 1-3k games. I now run 4x LPL and have had many 400-700+ 1-4kill games. PPCs, im lucky if I am able to break 450dmg with them, and kills are few and far between........

I am jealous if you can make them work, I been trying to make them work cuz on a warhawk the laser pods look like ass....so the PPC look right.but PPC suck.

[Y E O N N E]

Nightshade24, on 09 May 2015 - 02:04 AM, said:

Quirks can make a PPC run cooler then lasers...

There are only a few 'Mechs where that's true, and they include the Cicada 3C, Vindicator 1X, and the Awesome 8Q. I think that's all of them, actually.

None of them are really seen on battlefields all that often, let alone doing well on the field. They are also only running cooler than an ER Large in all three cases, but still hotter than a regular Large.

[Lightfoot]

1400-1600 mps for PPCs,1500-1700 for ERPPCs. Fix the no-damage bug which is back since they slowed them down. This makes PPCs accurate to their stated range. Currently they are only accurate to 350 meters, but..... 0-400 meters is where lasers are best and so that is why MWO is Laser-Robots right now. PPCs pay for that accuracy with the 10 and 15 heat so don't whine about it, just live with it like a Battlemech pilot.

That's the biggest problem with MWO. It has been balanced to make all the weapons vanilla-grade and no-sauce so you see Lasers-Only instead of a Battle tech game with PPCs, Gauss Rifles, good LRMs, good SSRMs, UAC's, etc. Lasers are the no-skill cheeze weapon, even with a duration, because they are just Point&Click and you score a bullseye. So why would players take anything else if it has all been balanced to be just vanilla in a different box?

Edited by Lightfoot, 09 May 2015 - 07:47 AM.

[Nightshade24]

LordKnightFandragon, on 09 May 2015 - 07:26 AM, said:

Lol, you dont see people dumping LPL and stuff for MGs cuz MGs, while might be the highest DPS, dont deal enough damage per shot with that DPS to be good.

Its kinda like the Planetside 2 EM1 vs say, the EM6, both New Conglomerate Machineguns for the Heavy. EM1 is 143dmg@652RpM while the EM6 is 167@600RpM. On paper the EM1 looks good cuz it fires fast, while the EM6 might seem like it fires to slow, but the EM6 is actually a perfect balance of ROF to Damage while the EM1 fires to slowly for its damage outpuit per bullet.

Its the same story here between PPC and Lasers. PPCs heat/velocity/damage are not good enough against the ROF you can sustain with them. Lasers might be spread, but you can sustain the ROF on them and they do good damage, it seems more reliable. I played 40 some games with 4x CERPPC, I was trying to learn 2 play wiht them, but they just suck. I fire and fire and fire and fire into mechs but nothing happens on the other end. I had a build of 2LL/2LPL/1ASRM6 and I had a few 500-700dmg 1-3k games. I now run 4x LPL and have had many 400-700+ 1-4kill games. PPCs, im lucky if I am able to break 450dmg with them, and kills are few and far between........

I am jealous if you can make them work, I been trying to make them work cuz on a warhawk the laser pods look like ass....so the PPC look right.but PPC suck.

Actually in a way you do... you see people dumping the over quirked ER large laser on the locust for more machine guns. and for tonnage the MG's and flammers do a lot of DPS. I simply stated them as that statement I said fell through the loophole.

Also planet side 2 two part of the comment...

I don't play Planetside 2. You lost me after the "2 EM1" part.

Also I find it funny, I was talking on another thread on what makes a good build basicly. (me being a person who likes non meta builds this automatically made the conversation complicated) we mentioned high reload, high alpha builds. and DPS isn't important.
now I'm here and I'm trying to be convinced that PPC's suck due to RoF out of all things .-.

Anyway, some people just are not good at some weapons and roles and that's not an insault, everyone is different and so is there play style. I can do very good iwth a 4 ER PPC warhawk. You can't. (in fact from what I'm reading you do much more better then me in a 4 large pulse warhawm)

Eeeeeeh, ppc's don't suck, personally I would say no weapon really sucks besides flamer... which basicly ghost heats on it's self being the best way to describe it =_=

[DukeRustfield]

Quaamik, on 09 May 2015 - 04:55 AM, said:

Negatives: my average damage delt was around 1/2 to 2/3 normal.

I'm thinking that people don't really understand the niche that PPCs occupy. Pinpoint damage is HUGE. For instance, my two main King Crabs are a 60LRM 4Med Pulse boat and a 2AC20 big engine. The AC20 does like 1/4 the dmg of the LRM boat. But they are comparable in terms of success. It's just unfortunate that PGI rewards based on dmg dealt mostly.

People want to stick 4 PPCs on a mech like they do everything else, but that's not what they are for. When I see people use them most effectively, they are scout snipers harrassing from extreme distances. It can not only knock out ecm but it's damn annoying and nearly impossible to counter without sending someone out there. If you sit there and try and PPC back, you've stopped your convoy and the sniper is successful. Someone said an er large laser would win that duel, but that's a joke. You'll do 2 dmg to him after 5 minutes.

It used to be no one used lasers. No one. It wasn't in the meta at all. Everyone used PPCs. But they got hotter and hotter and ghost heated and (I think) the clan mechs are so damn fast at higher tons that it's more reliable to use lasers.

[Y E O N N E]

^
Points for you. All the points.

[CocoaJin]

People focus too much on the lower total damage they get using PPCs. The reason in part is due to PPCs being a much more efficient weapon...in other words, you aren't pissing them all over mechs like a drunk on the streets of Mardi Gras. So you dispatch opponents with fewer wasted shots. If you need 10 or 20 damage to pop a target's CT, you are going to get your two shots into his CT(inspite of you or the target moving) much cleaner.

[LordNothing]

i like the point about them being effective siege weapons. i have used them effectively against turrets or objectives in cw. its just not an effective anti mech weapon. id rather they just add gameplay elements to utilize seige weapons. destructible fortifications, walls, more turrets (different types and weapon loadouts), targets of opportunity (extra points if you blow up/protect things in the map).

[BigBenn]

I'd like to see a much smaller band of ballistic and PPC velocities. The AC20 on up to the AC5, and both PPC's could use an increase. The slowest speed should be 1000 to 1200. Even the MG's could use a boost.

The PPC I'd like to see at 1300 and the ERPPC at 1500.

AC20 to 1000
AC10 to 1300
LBX10 to 1400
AC5 to 1600
UAC5 to 1700
AC2 to 2000

[LordKnightFandragon]

Nightshade24, on 09 May 2015 - 02:13 PM, said:

Actually in a way you do... you see people dumping the over quirked ER large laser on the locust for more machine guns. and for tonnage the MG's and flammers do a lot of DPS. I simply stated them as that statement I said fell through the loophole.

Also planet side 2 two part of the comment...

I don't play Planetside 2. You lost me after the "2 EM1" part.

Also I find it funny, I was talking on another thread on what makes a good build basicly. (me being a person who likes non meta builds this automatically made the conversation complicated) we mentioned high reload, high alpha builds. and DPS isn't important.
now I'm here and I'm trying to be convinced that PPC's suck due to RoF out of all things .-.

Anyway, some people just are not good at some weapons and roles and that's not an insault, everyone is different and so is there play style. I can do very good iwth a 4 ER PPC warhawk. You can't. (in fact from what I'm reading you do much more better then me in a 4 large pulse warhawm)

Eeeeeeh, ppc's don't suck, personally I would say no weapon really sucks besides flamer... which basicly ghost heats on it's self being the best way to describe it =_=

That wasnt me convincing you PPCs suck cuz of ROF, it was an example of another game where players say the EM1 isnt totally trash, some make it work, but as a whole it actually does suck. PPCs are the EM1.....some make itwork a nd swear by it, but as a whole its bad when compared to what else is in the game.

BigBenn, on 10 May 2015 - 06:24 AM, said:

I'd like to see a much smaller band of ballistic and PPC velocities. The AC20 on up to the AC5, and both PPC's could use an increase. The slowest speed should be 1000 to 1200. Even the MG's could use a boost.

The PPC I'd like to see at 1300 and the ERPPC at 1500.

AC20 to 1000
AC10 to 1300
LBX10 to 1400
AC5 to 1600
UAC5 to 1700
AC2 to 2000

We just need 1x range, then current velocity on like AC20 wont be that bad, since you cant fire it beyond 360m....so buff to maybe 950ms, buff AC10 to like 1150, 5 to 1225, and AC2 to like 1350.

PPC: 1250 base, quirks for some mechs up to 1300-1400
ISERPPC: 1275base, quirks up to 1350-1450
CERPPC: 12-13 dmg, 15 heat, 1250base, quirks up to 1300-1400.

[Weeny Machine]

CocoaJin, on 09 May 2015 - 09:03 PM, said:

People focus too much on the lower total damage they get using PPCs. The reason in part is due to PPCs being a much more efficient weapon...in other words, you aren't pissing them all over mechs like a drunk on the streets of Mardi Gras. So you dispatch opponents with fewer wasted shots. If you need 10 or 20 damage to pop a target's CT, you are going to get your two shots into his CT(inspite of you or the target moving) much cleaner.

You are right...but on a second thought wrong. The pinpoint damage is high. However, you must repeatedly hit the same location to profit from that. Else turning will put the WHOLE damage output on an undamaged portion of the mech. You can only reduce the chance of that happening by getting close to reduce the effect of velocity. Again the lasers are more likely to get some damage in on the damaged portion because a part of its damage is instantanous. You see, even here the lasers are actually more efficient than the weapons which should dominate here.

Also...this is why I think MWO fails to some degree: weapons which have drawbacks because they deliver high pinpoint damage in the TT have here less of an advantage thanks to perfect convergence.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 10 May 2015 - 08:35 AM.

[Nightshade24]

LordKnightFandragon, on 10 May 2015 - 07:09 AM, said:

That wasnt me convincing you PPCs suck cuz of ROF, it was an example of another game where players say the EM1 isnt totally trash, some make it work, but as a whole it actually does suck. PPCs are the EM1.....some make itwork a nd swear by it, but as a whole its bad when compared to what else is in the game.



We just need 1x range, then current velocity on like AC20 wont be that bad, since you cant fire it beyond 360m....so buff to maybe 950ms, buff AC10 to like 1150, 5 to 1225, and AC2 to like 1350.

PPC: 1250 base, quirks for some mechs up to 1300-1400
ISERPPC: 1275base, quirks up to 1350-1450
CERPPC: 12-13 dmg, 15 heat, 1250base, quirks up to 1300-1400.

I have no idea what the hell a EM1 is, for all I know it could be in reality the most powerful thing in your game but you simply are bad at using. (same way I never did good as a duel PPC gauss sniper with the cataphract in the old meta..)