75 replies to this topic

[EDMW CSN]

I have being around on this forums for awhile and I have discovered quite a number of people are not aware how OmniMechs really work as per TT rules. This is largely due to Mechwarrior.

But now with Piranha pro-claiming they will be following close to TT rules, I do hope this fixes this problem and make the designs work as intended.Anyway let me explain the pros and cons between BattleMechs and Clan Omni-Mechs.


Clan OmniMech

Pros
Easier to swap loadouts due to weapon pods.
Easier to repair.
Can transport Battle Armor
Clan have integrated CASE systems.

That means your OmniMech will be able to swap in weapon pods in and out without arbitrary restriction like extra C-bill costs and prolonged downtime for swapping weapons around. That is vastly cheaper in the long run, even if the initial cost to acquire a Clan OmniMech can be prohibitive.

OmniMechs with crippled limbs often need only half the time to repair, sometimes even less with experienced techs when compared to regular BattleMechs. That is a major benefit in a persistent MMO universe like this.

The 3rd benefit will depend whether Piranha is adding in Elementals or IS standard Battle Armor, but it is fun being a glorified APC at times. The added benefit is that these BA help guard your OmniMech against infantry or act as a strike forcet to distract another target.

The last benefit is of course integrated CASE for Clan Omnis. You can practically mount ammo in the arms if you wanted to.

Cons
IS do not have weapon pods (at least in this era, 3058 fixes that)
Clan tech is not readily available or workable to the IS.
OmniMechs cannot modify their hardwired equipment.

In 3050, the IS have no weapon pods. Nada. So you can't fit IS weapons on Clan Mechs as per rules.
Maybe Piranha can balance this out by letting IS weapon to be fitted on ClanMechs but with some increased downtime.

In 3050, Clan tech was in critically short supply. So stuff like Clan grade FF, Clan grade XL engines or Endo-Steel etc are not readily available for replacement if the Clan Omni suffered grievous damage. Also majority of IS techs were still learning how to maintain their Clan OmniMechs. The latter case can be circumvented if the player decides to pay for better techs rather than bog standard House mechanics.

Lastly, OmniMechs cannot modify their hardwired equipment. This is the most significant and a MUST addition for MWO.

Chassis restriction
1) Not allowed to change their engines rating
2) Not allowed to change their armor type or armor tonnage
3) Not allowed to change their fix amount of base heatsinks or change heatsink types.
4) Not allowed to change or relocate internal structure. Endo-steel crits should be strictly fixed.
5) Not allowed to remove or relocate any additional fixed equipment on Omnis. Some Omnis have fixed MASC or even ECM. Those CANNOT be removed.

So basically you trade out full customization for ease of switching load outs and maintenance.

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 28 November 2011 - 09:53 PM.

[EDMW CSN]

IS Battlemechs

Pros
Full customization of everything.
Tech familiarization.
Hometown turf means easy replacements.

Basically what the Clans can't do to their OmniMechs, you can do it. Change an engine, do a new internal structure, put more armor or less of it. Whatever you want. Also IS techs have being handling IS Battlemechs for centuries so repairs can be cheap. Replacements are not hard to get in IS space too.

Cons
Repairs take a long time.
BattleMechs take a long time to be customized since they are usually tailor fit for a certain role.
Massive customization require factories to work.
Not only that, those facilities and techs working hard to customize your mech, need to be paid. Big time.
Clan weapon does not work well with IS mechs, period.
IS mechs can only mount CASE in torsos and their CASE weighs half a ton.


Basically any form of massive customization is going to be expensive and will have extended downtime. Repairs will take a while but thankfully they are cheap for most of the parts but clan tech compatibility with IS mechs is horrible at least.

CASE for IS mechs also take up tonnage and crit space. Also they are restricted to the torso only which means you need to squeeze all ammo to the side torso. A potential firecracker that can rip your side torso and it's arms off.

So the IS player, you can dream fit your favourite IS Battlemech that is perfectly tailored to your taste. But you pay a premium for that !

What I do hope is that Piranha implements this rule directly from TT so there are distinct pros and cons for both IS and Clan mechs so as to keep a more varied feel in the game.

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 28 November 2011 - 10:00 PM.

[Damocles]

I like your ideas here.
In a kind of OT way to differentiate (and a minor way) would be with the inclusion of a melee combat system which would deal self-damage to punches without fists.
Many of those Clan Omnis dont have any hands

[EDMW CSN]

Damocles, on 28 November 2011 - 09:33 PM, said:

I like your ideas here. In a kind of OT way to differentiate (and a minor way) would be with the inclusion of a melee combat system which would deal self-damage to punches without fists. Many of those Clan Omnis dont have any hands

I can see an Atlas punching a Masakari again

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 28 November 2011 - 09:40 PM.

[Sun Tzu Lao]

I don't understand the need to balance what is inherently unbalanced... I always thought the clans were ahead in every aspect of tech except for dishonorable things like e-war...

[EDMW CSN]

Sun Tzu Lao, on 28 November 2011 - 10:00 PM, said:

I don't understand the need to balance what is inherently unbalanced... I always thought the clans were ahead in every aspect of tech except for dishonorable things like e-war...

This basically me regurgitating the Table Top rules.

Omnis trade full customization for ease of loadout switching and ease of repair.
Battlemechs are specialized for a single role, but given time and money, can be alter radically different from their original roles.

So in gameplay terms you can satisfy the player who wish to min max everything right down to the last half ton of armor or MG ammo, yet at the same time do not offend purists who insist that Battlemechs are hard to modify and customized.

Omni-mechs do have "standard configs" but it is an open secret Clanners do mod their default rides if they got a few spare weapons of their own choosing. Hence it adheres to fluff and lore.

=====================================================

By locking Clan Omni internal settings also to help make Clan Mechs distinct from each other.

For example a Clan Crossbow has 12 tons of standard armor and goes 5/8 with a standard engine. The Hellbringer only has 8 tons of standard armor and goes 5/8 with an XL engine.

With TT rules in force you cannot switch the Crossbow engine to an XL and drop the armor to 8 tons to mimic a Hellbringer or do vice versa. Neither can you do the "best of both worlds" by upping the Hellbringer armor with Clan FF and install Clan grade Endo for more pod tonnage.

Previously MW allowed random switching of internals, engine speed and armor types for Omnis. That is wrong and should be strictly forbidden.

If you got a Hellbringer and it only has 8 tons of standard armor, you got to live with it.

On the flip side, it uses STANDARD armor and no Clan endo or Clan FF, means it becomes dramatically easier to maintain in IS space as long the reactor is safe.

Good luck trying to maintain a Timber Wolf without any Clan FF armor.

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 28 November 2011 - 10:22 PM.

[dm5k]

I like your ideas. Although I think it's going to be a major challenge for Piranha to balance the Clans without making them OP and everyone jumps ship over to the Clans.

[EDMW CSN]

dm5k, on 28 November 2011 - 10:22 PM, said:

I like your ideas. Although I think it's going to be a major challenge for Piranha to balance the Clans without making them OP and everyone jumps ship over to the Clans.

What I do hope is that Clan Tech equipment should be rare enough for someone to consider using them. After all the next major Clan battle is the Jade Falcon Incursion years later.

So it encourages greater use of Clan mechs that are easier on logistics (primarily the Hellbringer and Nova, both use standard internals and standard armor) will have a greater chance to shine. The Dire wolf of course does not need endo or Clan FF either though....

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 28 November 2011 - 10:39 PM.

[Xhaleon]

[EDMW]CSN, on 28 November 2011 - 10:10 PM, said:

Good luck trying to maintain a Timber Wolf without any Clan FF armor.

Patchwork armor.

Dat Experimental Rules.

[Epitaph]

Yeah, I'm interested to see what they decide to do. I'm hoping more toward TT rules, but I'm willing to give an inch here or there, as long as they keep away from allowing configuration of Clan engines/armor/internals like previous games, as CSN said.

[EDMW CSN]

Xhaleon, on 28 November 2011 - 10:43 PM, said:

Patchwork armor. Dat Experimental Rules.

That could work. Can imagine a Timber wolf with standard armor plastered all over the arms and legs while the precious Clan FF reserved is for the torsos and head. Might have to rip that MGs off tho

               BattleMech Technical Readout

Type/Model:    Timber Wolf (Mad Cat) Prime (Patch)
Tech:          Clan / 3050
Config:        Biped OmniMech
Rules:         Level 3, Standard design

Mass:          75 tons
Chassis:       Endo Steel
Power Plant:   375 XL Fusion
Walking Speed: 54.0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 86.4 km/h
Jump Jets:     None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor Type:    Patchwork
Armament:      
  2 ER Large Lasers
  2 ER Medium Lasers
  2 LRM 20s
  1 Medium Pulse Laser
Manufacturer:  (Unknown)
  Location:    (Unknown)
Communications System:  (Unknown)
Targeting & Tracking System:  (Unknown)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
==Overview:==
     The Inner Sphere's first brush with an OmniMech was with a Mad Cat on The
Rock, Oberon Confederation, 13 August 3049. It was from a broadcast by a
member of the Kell Hounds mercenary unit that Our Blessed Order learned of
these machines and their mysterious masters. ComStar named this design the Mad
Cat because its hunched-over torso is common to both the Marauder and
Catapult. The Mad Cat is an exceptional combination of an XL Class engine,
Endo Steel internal structure, Ferro-Fibrous armor, and double heat sinks.

==Capabilities:==
     The most common configuration of the Mad Cat carries impressive
firepower, starting with double LRM-20 racks on the shoulders. The weapons
pods on the arms each contain an extended-range large laser and extended-range
medium laser. The Mad Cat also incorporates pulse technology, with a medium
pulse laser in its left torso. 

    However due to a lack of Clan grade FF armor in IS space, this Timber Wolf
had transfered all the precious remaining FF armor to the vitals while the
limbs are protected with more common armor. The machineguns were removed to
get the tonnage to mount the armor.
    

==Deployment==
     The Mad Cat is the favorite 'Mech of the Wolf Clan. It can claim a large
share of the credit for the Wolves' great successes and there is no apparent
explanation why it appears in only moderate numbers with the other Clans.

--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model:    Timber Wolf (Mad Cat) Prime (Patch)
Mass:          75 tons

Equipment:                                 Crits    Mass
Int. Struct.:  114 pts Endo Steel            7      4.00
 (Endo Steel Loc: 1 LT, 1 RT, 1 CT, 2 LL, 2 RL)
Engine:        375 XL Fusion                10     19.50
   Walking MP:   5
   Running MP:   8
   Jumping MP:   0
Heat Sinks:     17 Double [34]               4      7.00
 (Heat Sink Loc: 1 LA, 1 RA)
Gyro:                                        4      4.00
Cockpit, Life Supt., Sensors:                5      3.00
Actuators: L: Sh+UA+LA    R: Sh+UA+LA       14       .00
Armor Factor:  230 pts Patchwork             4     13.50

                          Internal    Armor    Armor
                          Structure   Value    Type
   Head:                      3          9      ·ff
   Center Torso:             23         36      ·ff
   Center Torso (Rear):                  9      ·ff
   L/R Side Torso:           16      25/25      ·ff
   L/R Side Torso (Rear):              7/7      ·ff
   L/R Arm:                  12      24/24      
   L/R Leg:                  16      32/32      

Weapons and Equipment    Loc  Heat  Ammo   Crits    Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 ER Large Laser         RA     12           1      4.00
1 ER Medium Laser        RA      5           1      1.00
1 ER Large Laser         LA     12           1      4.00
1 ER Medium Laser        LA      5           1      1.00
1 LRM 20                 RT      6   12      6      7.00
  (Ammo Locations: 1 LT, 1 RT)
1 Medium Pulse Laser     LT      4           1      2.00
1 LRM 20                 LT      6           4      5.00
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                         50          63     75.00
Crits & Tons Left:                          15       .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        24,274,688 C-Bills
Battle Value 2:    2,722 (old BV = 2,237)
Cost per BV2:      8,917.96
Weapon Value:      3,774 / 3,774 (Ratio = 1.39 / 1.39)
Damage Factors:    SRDmg = 44;  MRDmg = 31;  LRDmg = 19
BattleForce2:      MP: 5,  Armor/Structure: 6/4
                   Damage PB/M/L: 5/4/3,  Overheat: 2
                   Class: MH;  Point Value: 27
                   Specials: omni

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 28 November 2011 - 11:01 PM.

[Adridos]

So basicaly, Omnis will be restricted to go standard versions, so no uber mechs and IS will have that too, but you can make it as you want, right?
It seems good, but that payment seems a bit OP, yet I could live with that, just don't restrict the customisation fully, so you pay for engine change, but armor switching is possible to be free, or something like that.

[Strayed]

Adridos, on 28 November 2011 - 11:11 PM, said:

So basicaly, Omnis will be restricted to go standard versions, so no uber mechs and IS will have that too, but you can make it as you want, right?
It seems good, but that payment seems a bit OP, yet I could live with that, just don't restrict the customisation fully, so you pay for engine change, but armor switching is possible to be free, or something like that.

If Omni's are restricted to standard fits (prime, variant A etc), they will definitely be poor in drawn out battles due to lack of ammo.

[EDMW CSN]

There are plenty of Alt fits out there for Clanners. The Timber Wolf Alt A has enough ammunition for protracted battles since it carries only 1 streak SRM6. Rest are ER PPCs and medium pulses.

Warhawk Prime only mounts just 1 LRM10 but 4 Clan ERPPCs. In fact you want to deplete that LRM10 quickly so you can get the Alpha option without the risk of an ammo explosion, while the C variant is a strict beamer boat.

Gargoyle A is a strict energy boat. Adder Prime is a strict energy boat as well. Just to name a few.

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 29 November 2011 - 12:35 AM.

[Black Sunder]

I fully support this topic.

[Stormwolf]

Interesting topic, I'll write down my own views in a little while.

[Paladin1]

I think this is an excellent way to maintain a portion of the logic behind the TT rules while adapting them for MWO. Well done OP, I can get behind this as being fair and balanced.

[EDMW CSN]

I do hope this idea gets some merit with Piranha. At the very least, I am pretty sure it is easy to "lock" base criticals, since Battlemech programs have being dealing with it for years.

[Hunter McGee]

I will agree to almost all of this, but I still firmly desire for the Clanners to be Non-Player Options. Let us be the underdogs for once. Let us fight like the IS really did. Let us bleed to get our feet back under us like the IS did.

(Human Psychology Professor Now Speaking): It is human nature to want more power, more options, to be stronger than everyone else, richer than everyone else, and have the ability to crush our opponents with minimum force used. Most people, (Not All) would desire to have that power if the Clans were allowed to be played. I know they have said that there will be no Player ~vs~ Environment options at start, but how about trying to make then Clans the Environment to stop the Mass Exodus of the Inner Sphere pilots suddenly becoming Clanners? Also, the Clans had their own built in negative... Zellbrigen. Now how in the name of all that is holy do you force a person sitting at a computer to follow Clan honor rules??? You cannot.

So yes, allow us to salvage Clan tech and use it as we can, pay higher prices for re-fits, repairs and make it VERY rare and VERY hard to get. But please no Clan players. I think that is a disaster waiting to happen.

One option might be for a fully Clan only server. (World) Allow the Clanners to fight each other, keep the field level for the rest of us. Shouldn't be too hard once they work out the kinks in MWO.

Just some thoughts...

[Gaius Cavadus]

I really don't want to see the crit system rise from the grave it belongs in. The critical slot system was meant for custom mech creation, not variant customization.

At best you'd get customization along the lines of Justin Xiang-Allard's Yen-Lo-Wang which traded the AC-10 for an AC-20 and dropped the LRM launcher.

Limited customization along those lines means a hardpoint system. Reverting to TT's crit slot system would be the biggest step backwards the Mechwarrior franchise has ever taken.