31 replies to this topic

[Alistair Winter]

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the different jump jets, class by class.

Jump jet class V (0.5 tons) - Firestarter, Jenner, Spider, Mist Lynx, Kit Fox, etc

Jump jet class IV (0.5 tons) - Blackjack, Vindicator, Enforcer, Shadow Hawk, Nova, etc

Jump jet class III (1 ton) - Quickdraw, Catapult, Cataphract, Summoner, Timber Wolf, etc

Jump jet class II (1 ton) - Victor

Jump jet class I (2 tons) - Highlander, Dire Wolf

Which ones do you see buffed, nerfed or not changed?

Unless your answer is the same for all jump jets, I'd appreciate it if people answered for each class, like my answer below:

Class V: Buff
Class IV: No change
Class III: Buff
Class II: No change
Class I: Buff

I'd also like to see screenshake considerably decreased for Class V jump jets. Using jump jets to make attack runs is dangerous enough as it is, because you lose speed and become an easy target (duck hunt). It would be nice if mechs like the Jenner could take to the air once again with less "JUMP JETTING INTENSIFIES"

Spoiler

[ICEFANG13]

Although my opinion is for all JJs, I don't even own a heavy or almost any assaults, so technically is this just class 5 and 4,

I think all JJs are too weak, although I understand the desire for mechs to not fly around, the fact that there's really not an important difference between 1 and 5 JJs is just bleh. Putting 5 on a Jenner or the five stuck on the Nova is quite an investment, so it would be nice if it was really worth it. Personally I wish there was increasing returns on JJs, so the more you have, the more effective they become, either with more fuel, or more height, but personally, I just want to move horizontally faster if I have more than one, hovering in the air can be very dangerous.

To add, 1 JJ is so damn good on a light mech, for half a ton you get so much agility that just changes everything. Although I think overall Jump Jets suck, 1 JJ on a mech should probably be toned down a bit too, not useless, but perhaps not really giving any vertical height.

[Khobai]

The problem with buffing jumpjets is that it makes jumpjet mechs outright better than non-jumpjet mechs.

Because hillclimbing is so stupid right now that mechs cant even walk over small pebbles without getting stuck.

If jumpjets get buffed than hillclimbing needs to be fixed so not having jumpjets isnt as huge of a disadvantage.

Edited by Khobai, 07 May 2015 - 11:07 PM.

[William Mountbank]

I agree with your current list, but all of them are currently too slow at gaining air, and the overall mechanic is stupid. For instance, if you launch while travelling forward and hit an obstacle, then you 'save' your forward inertia for when you rise over the obstacle. I would rather have forward boost built in to the JJ action so that the mech doesn't slow down, but pop tarting becomes difficult.

People often put JJ mechs as higher tier than non-JJ mechs, but by and large if you have them you either waste time getting to areas you don't get much advantage being in, or they just slow you down and make you easier to hit compared to running around an obstacle.

To put it into perspective, which is better: twERLL Raven-3L or Spider 5D - they both do the same thing, but the high arm on the 3L makes it maybe twice as effective as the 5D despite not mounting JJs.

[William Mountbank]

Also, a scene from the BT Gray Death sequel books springs to mind, where Grayson is trying to cross a swamp and his mech is struggling in the mud, so he uses his JJs to get across. As in, while the mech is stationary, and trapped in mud, the JJs pick it up and rocket it 100m away.

Not going to happen here, but food for thought anyway...

[Alistair Winter]

ICEFANG13, on 07 May 2015 - 11:02 PM, said:

I think all JJs are too weak, although I understand the desire for mechs to not fly around, the fact that there's really not an important difference between 1 and 5 JJs is just bleh. Putting 5 on a Jenner or the five stuck on the Nova is quite an investment, so it would be nice if it was really worth it. Personally I wish there was increasing returns on JJs, so the more you have, the more effective they become, either with more fuel, or more height, but personally, I just want to move horizontally faster if I have more than one, hovering in the air can be very dangerous.
To add, 1 JJ is so damn good on a light mech, for half a ton you get so much agility that just changes everything. Although I think overall Jump Jets suck, 1 JJ on a mech should probably be toned down a bit too, not useless, but perhaps not really giving any vertical height.

I agree, but it's hard to do anything about 1JJ unless it only gives you 1 meter lift, because that's usually all you need for a huge boost in hill climbing ability. I think one way to balance the 1JJ builds would be to increase the time it takes to create lift. So if you have 5JJs, then you basically shoot up in the air instantly. With only 1JJ, it should take longer to get some upward momentum. This should also stop people from 'pumping' their jets, because it would have no effect if you didn't gain upward momentum before you'd spent 30% of your fuel.

Khobai, on 07 May 2015 - 11:05 PM, said:

The problem with buffing jumpjets is that it makes jumpjet mechs outright better than non-jumpjet mechs.
Because hillclimbing is so stupid right now that mechs cant even walk over small pebbles without getting stuck.
If jumpjets get buffed than hillclimbing needs to be fixed so not having jumpjets isnt as huge of a disadvantage.

Agreed. I think my suggestion above goes some way to fixing that.

William Mountbank, on 07 May 2015 - 11:27 PM, said:

Also, a scene from the BT Gray Death sequel books springs to mind, where Grayson is trying to cross a swamp and his mech is struggling in the mud, so he uses his JJs to get across. As in, while the mech is stationary, and trapped in mud, the JJs pick it up and rocket it 100m away.
Not going to happen here, but food for thought anyway...

Yeah, I would have loved that. It's the way JJs work in MW:LL, apparently. It would be a huge improvement in my mind. Jump jets should be more about maneuverability than poptarting, especially for heavier mechs. I don't mind Jenners jumping and shooting as they circle an assault mech. That seems fitting.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Class V: Thrust buff, burn times shortened/equalized. Refuel rate needs to be normalized between lights.

Class IV: More fuel to buff to height caps. Refuel rate is ok.

Class III: Buff height cap/not thrust, burn times lengthened, extra fuel to increase height cap a little. Refuel rate needs to be slightly quicker.

Class II: little bit more fuel to increase height cap slightly, thrust is fine. Refuel rate needs to be quicker.

Class I: BIG buff, so the highlander can get off the damn ground. Refuel rate needs to be quicker.

Most of the problem is fuel limits are too low (thus height caps are poor and you spend almost all your fuel just to control falls), thrust power on most mechs is decent but could use a bump up too.

That and Refueling while in air should be possible, just at a reduced rate, maybe 25% of normal, just to control falls.

Edited by Mister D, 09 May 2015 - 09:11 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

This is what I'd consider looking into.

First as baseline, put JJs back to how they were before the big nerf for poptarting.

Now...

1. Adjust heat per JJ type or class. Basically lights should suffer a low heat penalty, while jumping in an assault should be fairly warm with a full burn (it is heavier and the JJs bigger after all).

Something like...

Exanple with full amount of JJs equiped, full burn:
*Light: 10% increase to heat base line
*Medium: 15% increase to heat base line
*Heavy: 25% increase to heat base line
*Assault: 35% increase to heat base line

2. Refuel rate is increased for larger JJs. The larger the mech or bigger the class JJ, the longer JJs take to refuel. Again, bigger capacity to fill. If a light now takes approx 3 seconds to fill it's JJ fuel from empty to full, an Assault takes 10 seconds. Medium could take about 4 seconds, Heavy about 7 seconds.

3. If possible, have vertical acceleration faster in lighter mechs and slower in heavier mech like Assaults. The overall obtained height is still the same press nerf, it just takes longer for Assaults and Heavies to hit max height vs Lights and Mediums.

Overall the thought is to curb poptarting in heavier platforms while retaining height for terrain navigation.

Although the JJ height is fully restored to pre nerf levels, Assaults and Heavies (main poptart culprits) generate more heat from JJs, have to wait much longer to recharge JJs lowering RoF in the air. If vertical velocity can be different per class, it means a mech has to be exposed longer while waiting for his/her weapons to crest terrain.

It allows larger mechs to use JJs more for terrain navigation and makes it less ideal for poptarting. It allows lighter mechs to still use JJs for evasion and quick repositioning. Lights and Mediums could still technically poptart, but they never really carried the alpha potential to be a serious threat anyway.

[El Bandito]

Buff thrusts globally. Implement reticule shake all the way until it lands. My 2 cents.

[StraferX]

Class V needs very minor thrust buff.
Class IV needs a moderate thrust buff
Class III - I need significant thrust buff.

The Griffin used to be pretty agile now it is hardly worth the tonnage. I do not need height just the ability to jump and spin about and move away.

The JJ on heavier classes are basically worthless only to navigate over very small sticks, fix hill climb and you could get rid of the JJ. keep the height down to prevent pop tarting just some forward thrust.

Delete JJ in DireWhale and improve its hill climb. This thing should be able to climb just about anything, if there is not a good path it is massive enough to create it's own, same with Pinchy Crab.

Some areas of maps need to be out of bounds like top of mountain in Crimson, top of citadel etc.

[QuantumButler]

The JJ model they should follow is the model used in Living Legends, where JJs give you mad ups but you have very little control over how high you actually go, meaning you make yourself a pretty big target if you try to poptart.

Regardless, all JJs need hella big buffs, assault class jets should at least be as powerful as the current light class jets are, light class jets should get at least double the air they do now.

[Tahribator]

In my opinion the only class that needs a buff is the Class I. Class III definitely should not be touched, lest it would unleash some unwanted poptart behaviour again. 5xClass III's have really good boost with many equipped. The Summoner is already a really good poptart.

As Russ said in the town hall, Class I's should scale much better with each JJ. It shouldn't go from "slightly hovering" at 1 to "mildly hovering" at 4. Especially for the HGN. Then again it's an impossible task to balance, as the DWF will directly benefit from any flat-out bonuses which we DO NOT want. The buff to Class I's should come from quirks, not general buffs.

[Dolph Hoskins]

With the mechs I use enough to give feedback on this I would say class V and III jump jets should give about a 33% increase in maximum height potential from a standstill vertical jump.

All other features like heat and screen shake are well implemented I'd say as they are restricting yet able to be controlled in battle with practice and understanding on the limitations. Having to consider things is a good thing.

Buff JJ thrust and height potential, keep all other mechanics the same.

Edited by The Ripper13, 08 May 2015 - 05:24 AM.

[Risen]

In general:
I would like to see cockpit shake for the complete time of the jump, it is the easiest way to simulate the mechwarrior being occupied with controlling the mech's jump and landing.
This should also apply for accidental jumps (called falling) from 2 to 3 plus meters hight.

Jump jet class V (0.5 tons) - Firestarter, Jenner, Spider, Mist Lynx, Kit Fox, etc

• fine on low amounts
  
• change on higher amounts required: seen on the Mist Lynx jump jets remove too much acceleration and velocity on a light mech, they become sitting ducks in mid air

jj's need to accelerate the mech far more and give them a highly increased forward thrust, maybe like a double jump in unreal or a rocket jump in quake?
in a 1on1 situation the light can use it to flank an opponent or quickly jump from cover to cover.
Jump jet class IV (0.5 tons) - Blackjack, Vindicator, Enforcer, Shadow Hawk, Nova, etc

• more forward velocity and vertical thrust on higher amounts
  
• more power while standing

Jump jet class III (1 ton) - Quickdraw, Catapult, Cataphract, Summoner, Timber Wolf, etc

• more forward velocity and vertical thrust on higher amounts
  
• more power while standing

Jump jet class II (1 ton) - Victor

• more forward velocity and vertical thrust on higher amounts
  
• more power while standing

Jump jet class I (2 tons) - Highlander, Dire Wolf

• higher thrust to jumpjet amount ratio, they need to lift off the ground quicker for higher fuel burn maybe

[Feetwet]

I have to agree with most of what I have read here. I hated the poptart meta, more because it looked silly than how effective it was. For me several things need to happen.

1. Fix ground movement all together. Mechs without jj have the potential to get stuck in the dumbest places. Additionally maps should have more rolling hills and less vertical rock faces allowing more access to non-jj mechs...canyons, i'm looking at you.

2. The thrust and fuel consumption should grow linearly with each JJ. There should be a base fuel amount. 1 JJ lower vertical thrust, longer burn time.

3. Mechs should not turn faster in the air than they can on the ground. JJs are design for vertical thrust...maybe a little forward.

4. No cockpit shake because I don't want to be derailed by the vertigo arguments but massive recticle shake while in the air. Nothing in the air should be pinpoint. (reasoning, while in the air pilot has to constantly fight to keep mech upright)

5. Vertical drop should be damaging if not checked...really damaging.

As I said, most of this has been mentioned before, but these seem like the best options for me. There should be places that jj mechs can get that non-jjs can't but the current maps with some of their wonky telemetry limit non-jj mechs movement options pretty severly.

S

[Ursh]

Lights are in a good place. My kitfox has 2 jumpjets equipped, and it is far more nimble than my summoner, which has 5 jumpjets.

We don't want to see massive poptarting again, but man it makes me so frustrated when my summoner can't even get over small buildings without using up all of my thrust.

[Lostdragon]

JJ need a complete redesign. They way they work now is just not fun to me. I think they need to have way more thrust as well as thrust vectoring. They should be a lot more like jumping, meaning they have a much shorter burn time but much greater thrust than they currently do and should probably generate significantly more heat and cause deconvergence of all weapons until the mech lands. The bigger the mech and the jump jets the more these negatives impact it, such that lights are still able to fire somewhat accurately and not overheat while jumping but heavies and assaults are better off to jump to a more advantageous position then fire in most cases.

So, for example, if you press the space bar while standing still you'd rocket straight up then fall straight back down. If you hold W while the jets are burning you get much less height but you move forward about the same height as you would have traveled straight up. The other movement keys vector the thrust in different directions, and the vectoring can be changed while the jets are burning to accomplish something like flying straight up for a moment to clear an obstacle then vectoring sideways to move over the object.

As I mentioned the heat created by JJ should be significant, such that firing a lot of weapons in the air will result in overheating. If a mech shuts down in the air it should take significant fall damage to the legs and maybe other components when it lands (ideally it would also fall down and have to get back up but that would require knockdown mechanics be added back to the game).

I also think hill climbing needs a revamp. The whole point of mechs is to be able to traverse terrain that is too difficult for wheeled and tracked vehicles. The way hill climbing used to work was probably overgenerous, but I feel that currently the way it works is extremely frustrating and also not fun. I do think that big mechs should slow down when they try to climb a grade, but at the same time I think they are currently too restricted and mechs without JJ should have better climbing ability than they do.

I think making these changes would make JJ a lot more fun and useful without being mandatory. It would also raise the skill ceiling for using JJ a lot while not making the system unintuitive.

[Lily from animove]

i hate the JJ's on my Nova, from a 0 till mid speed jump there is way too much upwards thrust.and you can hardly jump upwards on buildings because it lacks the forward thrust to come over the edge far enough to stand on.

and on assaults, JJ's should help for some kind of short "sprints" by giving forward acceleration above their current topspeed (like +20%).
the entire way how a pilot can affect (or better can not affect) the jump vector truly sucks.

dropdamage is still a joke, there should be serious dropdamage inrelation to vertical speed a drop ahs, isntead we have lights gotten damaging their legs when running forward.

Edited by Lily from animove, 08 May 2015 - 06:21 AM.

[FupDup]

Once upon a time, mechs could climb damn near anything. Atlases climbed up Tourmaline spikes and Stalkers waddled up mountains. People commonly thought that JJs were pointless except their ability to make faster turns.

Then PGI added the slope climbing code that makes assault mechs get stuck on pebbles. Suddenly, JJs became a mandatory part of every mech, and a mech's viability boiled down to whether or not it could jump. If it couldn't jump, it was a bad mech.

Then JJs got screen shaking to combat the jump snipers that ascended to power.

Later, falling damage and JJ heat got added, again as a soft-nerf to jump snipers.

Then, JJ thrust got hammed down into the ground (thanks, Timbertart!), to the point that a heavy with full JJs would jump like a current Highlander with 1 JJ can.

Then JJ thrust got nudged up a bit so that mechs 80 tons and under could do more than mildly hover above the ground.




This leaves us pretty much where we are today. There has been such a long damn cycle of buffing and nerfing JJs and other things related to JJs...

...And it all started with the slope climbing nerf. It was way too heavy-handed. Mechs slowing down up slopes is fine by itself, but outright coming to a complete stop takes it too far. A mech should only get 100% stopped by walls or sheer cliffs. Slopes should always be climbable with stopping, even if at a slower rate.

If moving around was manageable without having to rely on jets to get over pebbles and other tiny obstacles, perhaps JJs wouldn't be as much of a necessity to equip.

Combine that with something such as approximately 0.5 seconds of screen shake after releasing spacebar, and then we could finally design JJs to be powerful and fun mobility devices without having to live in fear of toaster pastries.

Edited by FupDup, 08 May 2015 - 07:17 AM.

[Otto Cannon]

Light mechs are slightly better off at the moment, but my opinion is that all jets need the same basic changes.

1) Make them properly quick to use and powerful enough to get easily onto high buildings etc. as long as you have several fitted. Give us the tactical mobility they are supposed to provide.

2) Extend the cooldown time so you can't spam them constantly.

3) If having good jumpjets causes excessive poptarting even with the longer cooldown, reduce accuracy when jumping rather than nerf jumping itself.

4) Increase hillclimbing ability for all mechs and get rid of pebblelock so you don't need jets for normal movement. Mechs have legs instead of wheels for that reason.

It would also be nice to get more control over direction of thrust within reasonable limits, so you can correct your flight to land on small rooftops and choose whether to go higher to climb or further forward to leap over gaps.