90 replies to this topic

[VooDooPC]

I think I need a short Mechwarrior history lesson. I've played just about every Mechwarrior game (Everything but MechAssault 2, I even played Mechwarrior 3050 for the SNES) but I never read any novels or did any table top games.

Why is Clan technology so advanced and how would it really effect the game compared to the age difference in the current 'mechs?

Mechwarrior Online takes place just before the Clan invasion, so currently everything is Inner Sphere, which I understand. "Operation Exodus" was in 2784, the Clans were formed and the invasion was 300 years later, in 3050. I was looking at some of the 'mechs that will be in the game and the dates they were developed and I was surprised just how old some of this stuff is.

Commando - Introduced in 2463. This was over 300 years before the Exodus and add another 300 years before the invasion, this 'mech will be around 600 years old when we use it in Mechwarrior Online!

Catapult - 2561 ~500 years old ~225 years before Exodus

Hunchback - 2572 ~475 years old ~215 years before Exodus

Atlas - 2755 ~300 years old ~10 years before Exodus

Centurion - 2801 ~250 years old

Nova (Clan) - 2870 ~180 years old

Timber Wolf (Clan) - 2945 ~100 years old

Cataphract - 3025 ~50 years old

Is something like the Cataphract, which is in the game and only 50 years old, completely obsolete still to the Clan tech that is ~150 years older? How will a Cataphract compare to a Commando, which is 550 years older? Did the Inner Sphere really produce the same 'mech for the better part of a century?

I know it's a lot of questions but everyone talks about the Clan Tech being tough to balance but if we are already using antique 'mechs against something modern like the Cataphract I imagine the clan 'mechs wouldn't be much harder to balance than anything else. Also, since the Commando is a 600 year old light 'mech, will it be a horrible starter 'mech or something?

[Adridos]

Well, it's mostly because Inner Sphere nuked the ... hell out of each other and ended up with no good factories and lots of lost knowledge. Com Star (the telephone company you probably heard of, since they stopped the invasion at tukayid MW2: Mercs ending) also kept them in check to keep their dominance by killing anyone wise enough to make a difference.

Clans, on the other hand, fled during the golden age and took the tech with them... and perfected it over the time of constant fighting.
Their tech is lighter, gives more damage, less heat, takes less crits and has bigger range... that's better in all categories possible.

As for the new mechs facing the Clans, there is one problem.
Both of them (Raven and Cataphract) are Capellan designs produced by Capellans... and we didn't fight the Clans. But even if we did, they are new mechs, but it's still only the modern technology of the Inner Sphere (still below the golden age tech, let alone the Clan one).

[Telthalion]

The short version:

The ancestors of the Clans left the Inner Sphere when the Star League was at its technological height.

Then the Inner Sphere spent a couple hundred years nuking themselves back to the stone age, while the Clans continued to improve their technology from what the Star League already had.

So by the time the Clans return the Inner Sphere is essentially throwing rocks at each other, while the Clans have better stuff then their ancestors ever saw.

[Stormwolf]

Okay, you are really new to the universe, I'll give you a really brief version here since I don't have a lot of time.

The Inner Sphere had a higher tech level before the exodus then it has now. The reason for this is that a lot of knowledge was lost during the Succession Wars. The mechs mentioned in TRO 3025 are often downgrades of superior mechs from the Star League era and early Succession wars.

The Clans never lost this tech and improved upon it during their exile. It is only now that the Inner Sphere is recovering its lost technology due to the recovery of the Helm memory core.

[Thomas G Wolf]

Click here http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Main_Page then start reading nuff said.

[Accuso]

hi

the thing is that during the war between the rival houses (steiner, kurita, davion, liao, marik) aka the "Successor Wars" most knowledge was destroyed...

on the other hand the clans evolved from the star league and formed a society in which engineers and pilots formed a most honerable "caste"

you can read the mainstory in that thread :-D

http://mwomercs.com/...tions-and-tech/

[Drop Bear]

the reason that no ' real ' new mechs have been designed is because the IS has been at war for the period of time between the disbanding of the star league, (during which there was much in fighting and alot of information and technology was lost due to nukes, subterfuge and Kerensky taking the majority of the starleague military and plans for mechs to form the Clans while also sabotaging the Star League databases so that there would be little left .) in this time many mech production WORLDS were lost leaving the IS in a state of disarray and if you like, some what similar to medieval England or Europe even. This mean that the technology used in Cataphract is the same technology as what is used in the commando because the IS has been using the scraps left over from the Star League and have not put any effort into researching or simply didn't know where to start.

While this was happening the clans have been building off their complete record of Star League data bases meaning that not only do they have a massive head start they do not have the infighting which has caused so many problems with the IS technology scale (i.e.Steiner found an experimental laser design so Liao goes in and blows up the envoy, recovery site and information to deny it to Steiner while the clans would have a trial by combat for the claim to it but the information itself would not be lost)

I would also like to put it out that during this time almost all claners were grown in vats from the pinnacle of DNA and divided into castes based on their strengths so they also had the very best in research, combat, infrastructure and commerce.\

Hope this helps you out and doesn't raise too many more questions.

Edited by Drop Bear, 03 July 2012 - 12:14 AM.

[Slechtvalk]

Sorry, my mothertongue is not english,

what you also forgot to mention is, the art of war.

Clanwar means a bet before fight. Honor is very important, so clanners will always bet with how less units they engage. So Clan vs. IS means that clanners will be outnumbered at their own will, cause they know how strong they are.
This is something giving equal chances. Playing tabletop would lead into this roleplay, but how this would/could be done ingame, depends on the players.

[grungnir]

VooDooPC, on 02 July 2012 - 11:52 PM, said:

Is something like the Cataphract, which is in the game and only 50 years old, completely obsolete still to the Clan tech that is ~150 years older? How will a Cataphract compare to a Commando, which is 550 years older? Did the Inner Sphere really produce the same 'mech for the better part of a century?

I know it's a lot of questions but everyone talks about the Clan Tech being tough to balance but if we are already using antique 'mechs against something modern like the Cataphract I imagine the clan 'mechs wouldn't be much harder to balance than anything else. Also, since the Commando is a 600 year old light 'mech, will it be a horrible starter 'mech or something?

how many years has ford been making the mustang? Does the original bear much resemblance to the newest model? Just because a chassis has had the same name for a hundred years doesnt mean there havent been improvements on the chassis. As for why newer tech isnt better than old clan tech, when rome was razed it took us over 1000 years to rediscover indoor plumbing. Irans newest shiniest missile is still worse than our 50 year old ICBMs.

[William Petersen]

After the Exodus, the Inner Sphere when through a horrific and extended period of war. The clans, once they finally settled down after the annihilation of Clan Wolverine went through a Star Leage-esque era of advancement know as the "Golden Century".

In short: While the Inner Sphere was busy making war, practicing scorched earth, and obliterating the means by which they even waged war, the Clans were busy taking the best technology of the Star League and making it better.

Personally, I think if the Clans had waited another century or two, they would have come back to find ComStar in open control of everything (secretly they already controlled everything =P). There would be no need to conquer the Inner Sphere, then, because they'd already be united, albeit not under the banner of the Star League (though you never know, the Primus at the time may have used that for the sake of nostalgia or to 'legitimize' his rule or something =P).

[Temu]

By the end of the Second Successor war, Mech production factories were building mechs, but those working in the factories didn't know what everything in the factory was doing, or how it built the parts.. just that it worked and they did what they could to make sure it continued working. To say they bombed themselves back into the stone age is barely figurative. They lost so much knowledge on the tech they still had , it was close to the idea of the "scientists/tech having OUR level of knowledge, but at the same time access to tech way more advanced"

Clans never had that loss of knowledge, AND in the beginning created a system that protected the knowledge. The clan tech is more Efficient, but they didn't invent much new tech, they just improved the tech they already had. Once Inner Sphere got the tech from the star league back, all the years of war and such, they started coming up with new ideas much quicker then the clans, but that won't be for another 6-9 years. This game starts around the time the Inner Sphere have deciphered the old Star League technology and have upgraded most designs to use it. This is the beginning of the IS new golden age. (sort of)

[LordDeathStrike]

the main balance issues.

clans have omni hard points instead of specific mounted weapon types. clan weapons weigh less and use less crit space.

clan double heat sinks are 1 ton 2 slots 2 heat removed, is heat sinks are 1 ton 1 slot 1 heat or 1 ton 3 slots 2 heat.

clan armor weighs half as much for the same protection but uses a few crits, is armor is either 2x as heavy, or uses up way more crits for the ferro version.

at the end of the day for the same tonnage/armor rating, you can have more weapons on a clan mech and the heat sinks to use them. star league sinks and ferror help the IS a little, but are still poor in comparison to clan tech. the tech difference is tantamount to having alot more health, and 2-5x more firepower (based on more weapons and far superior heat management). the only thing keeping the clans from steam rolling the IS in lore was zell and sheer numbers of units they had to wade through, and comstar.

if i can slap clan double heat sinks and weapons and armor on my atlas or cataphract or warhammer or any other is mech, i can turn it into a machine any clanner would fear facing.

Edited by LordDeathStrike, 03 July 2012 - 02:20 AM.

[shotokan5]

Let us forget tech for a minute and come back to this little earth of ours. The United States has by far the most advanced battle technology in the world by far. Hmm, When was the last war we really won. Battle tech may win many battles because of their battle tech's but that does not mean that they will get close to winning a war. Also, the Inner Spehere out of plain common sense is making strides forward in thier mechs whill the clans have large numbers of old updated mechs.


The answer to first question to the first question is none. That will be the answer to the clans they may win many battles but the war will never be theirs. Like us we always forget the human factor. The Clans may have Gen altered warriror and and better weapons they will end up with the same.

On August 7 we will be working on solving such problems. If its worng they will fix it , so for the mean time lets please let these folks do
best making a great game and stop whinning. we have waited 10 years for this let us not whine it out of existance before we even start.

[Valten]

I agree with Shotokan, It doesn't matter how great your tech is if you aren't willing to use it. IS on the otherhand are quite litterally fighting for their way of life, that is a powerful motivator and one that will (and fluff wise eventually does) see ancient enemies put aside their differences and join forces against a common foe. Don't get me wrong, on paper the clans hold all the cards, but they have a long road ahead of them.

What I'm hoping for is that this game will be well enough written, and the players avid enough, that when the clans do arrive we won't see a mass exodus to play as clanners but instead see people rise to the challenge of defending the factions they already play for.

[MrMasakari]

Valten, on 03 July 2012 - 03:17 AM, said:

I agree with Shotokan, It doesn't matter how great your tech is if you aren't willing to use it. IS on the otherhand are quite litterally fighting for their way of life, that is a powerful motivator and one that will (and fluff wise eventually does) see ancient enemies put aside their differences and join forces against a common foe. Don't get me wrong, on paper the clans hold all the cards, but they have a long road ahead of them.

What I'm hoping for is that this game will be well enough written, and the players avid enough, that when the clans do arrive we won't see a mass exodus to play as clanners but instead see people rise to the challenge of defending the factions they already play for.

This will probably be the case. Even though ive loved the clans to bits since MW2, ill probably end up playing for the factions that have the least support just to even things out. And hey fighting on the losing side sounds like an honourable cause to me anyway ^^

Edited by Artaire, 03 July 2012 - 03:22 AM.

[Bodha]

What they all said

Oh and before anyone gets the idea that balancing will go out the window when clan stuff comes out think again. The TT game rules had battle values associated with the various mechs. If the dev's use that system or something similar to it you should still get fairly even games. Basically the clan mechs are worth more ton for ton. Oh and the clan forces organized in 5 mech stars vs. the IS model of 4 mech lances.

[Twisted Power]

[

Adridos, on 03 July 2012 - 12:01 AM, said:

Well, it's mostly because Inner Sphere nuked the ... hell out of each other and ended up with no good factories and lots of lost knowledge. Com Star (the telephone company you probably heard of, since they stopped the invasion at tukayid MW2: Mercs ending) also kept them in check to keep their dominance by killing anyone wise enough to make a difference.

Clans, on the other hand, fled during the golden age and took the tech with them... and perfected it over the time of constant fighting.
Their tech is lighter, gives more damage, less heat, takes less crits and has bigger range... that's better in all categories possible.

As far as I know in all the games I have ever played all clan tech generates MORE heat, even the missle systems. I have read many books as well and they do not mention that clann tech runs cooler, just that it does more damage and has a longer range. In fact now that I am checking in battletech avanti's angels trillogy there are a few passages in the third book that mentions increased heat in the Clan PPC weapons.

Edited by Twisted Power, 03 July 2012 - 05:14 AM.

[Reoh]

Twisted Power, on 03 July 2012 - 05:13 AM, said:

As far as I know in all the games I have ever played all clan tech generates MORE heat, even the missle systems. I have read many books as well and they do not mention that clann tech runs cooler, just that it does more damage and has a longer range. In fact now that I am checking in battletech avanti's angels trillogy there are a few passages in the third book that mentions increased heat in the Clan PPC weapons.

Some Clan weapons generate more heat (For example ER lasers), the same (Pulse lasers), or less (Ultra Autocannons). Thanks to being lighter and smaller they can afford to install more of their (again smaller) double-heatsinks to compensate while retaining additional range, along with the same or more damage. Their advanced construction techniques also save significantly more space for Ferro-Fibrous and Endo-Steel slot usage, along with their XL engines which not only require 2 spaces in each side torso rather than 3, but also result in a side torso's destruction not automatically killing the engine.

SOURCE

Edited by Reoh, 03 July 2012 - 05:34 AM.

[Bombast]

Reoh, on 03 July 2012 - 05:33 AM, said:

Some Clan weapons generate more heat (For example ER lasers), the same (Pulse lasers), or less (Ultra Autocannons). Thanks to being lighter and smaller they can afford to install more of their (again smaller) double-heatsinks to compensate while retaining additional range, along with the same or more damage. Their advanced construction techniques also save significantly more space for Ferro-Fibrous and Endo-Steel slot usage, along with their XL engines which not only require 2 spaces in each side torso rather than 3, but also result in a side torso's destruction not automatically killing the engine.

SOURCE

Clan and Inner Sphere lasers produce the same ammount of heat. Ultracannon's produce less heat clan side.

The only advantage, tech wise, of Inner Sphere design is the weird weapons they get (MRMs, etc), which is largly destroyed when the clan's copy those same weapons some time later.

Oh, and the standard Medium Laser, which is largely considered the best weapon ever, balance wise.

EDIT: Perhaps you are looking at the Clan ER Pulse Laser?

Edited by Bombast, 03 July 2012 - 05:46 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

To add in more confusion (and conversation ), Clans used Inner Sphere Mechs as well. Most Clan Mechs we recognize (MadCat, Vulture, etc..) are Omni Mechs, but I do remember the clans running with certain variants of Inner Sphere Mechs that were labeled "II-C". I remember Mechs that were labeled Hunchback II-C, Rifleman II-C, and Jenner II-C. These were vastly improved Inner Sphere designs that were normally given to the "Less Worthy" Clan pilots.

My Question though is, are these carry over designs from the Star League (When they first left and created the Clans, or were these captured and re-conditioned Mechs durring the invasion?