90 replies to this topic

[Reoh]

grimzod, on 03 July 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

They left because another conflict drained their empire to the breaking point: WW2. The fact that India and Indians played a vital rol ein fighting the Japanese helped their cause as well and the nationalist movements got their wish in 1947/48.

Clans got bored, started attacking each other as well. Clan Wolf in Exile (among other Clanner elements in the IS such as Wolf's Dragoons) also played a vital role in assisting the IS.

[Hunson Abadeer]

Valten, on 03 July 2012 - 03:17 AM, said:

a mass exodus to play as clanners

That is my concern. It seems like A LOT of people are only biding their time until they can become Clanners. I just hope that there will be enough people in the Inner Sphere. If the Puppies and Turkeys outnumber everyone because everyone is wanting to relive MW2, that won't achieve much without a way to balance that out.

I also don't particularly like the notion of a bunch of Clanners RPing as Clanners while affecting how the Inner Sphere plays out right up until they switch sides and invade. If you're going to play for a House or mercs aligned with a House, then do it right until the munch becomes available. Then go and be a munchkin with the munchiest munch that ever was a munch.

[phelancracken]

LordDeathStrike, on 03 July 2012 - 02:19 AM, said:

the main balance issues.

snip

clan armor weighs half as much for the same protection but uses a few crits, is armor is either 2x as heavy, or uses up way more crits for the ferro version.


if i can slap clan double heat sinks and weapons and armor on my atlas or cataphract or warhammer or any other is mech, i can turn it into a machine any clanner would fear facing.

Okay,

I have an issue with this. Now I realize that the MW games aren't following TT very well, but MWO has stated they are going to follow TT pretty close and only modify what needs to be to make it work in a computer game. Soo, with that being said, in TT, every mech has a MAXIMUM amount of armour it may carry per weight class. Page 116 of the BMRr states that no mech, no matter the tech, cannot carry more than this amount of armour per tonnage limit. Example:

Tonnage Armour limit
20 69
25 89
100 307

I cut out a lot of the chart but included these numbers as examples.

That's it. Clan armour don't give 50% weight savings in that system. Ferro only gives 20% more than standard versus 12% for IS Ferro. Crit slots is the other difference. If MWO follows this formula, or something consistent like it, lot of issues go away. Yes, the clans have better weapons and heat dissapation, however, they can't carry more armour than the max for that chassis. So 12 IS mechs that have max armour, have a significant advantage of taking abuse before they die versus 5 clan mechs. This is 3025 tech versus clan tech.

[Hunson Abadeer]

phelancracken, on 04 July 2012 - 07:52 PM, said:

Okay,

The Clan ER Medium Laser produces 62.5% of the heat of an Inner Sphere Large Laser, 87.5% of the damage, 100% of the range, 20% of the weight, and takes up 50% of the critical slots.

The Clan ER PPC produces 100% of the heat of an Inner Sphere ER PPC, 150% of the damage, 100% of the range, 85.7% of the weight, and takes up 66.7% of the critical slots.

The Clanners also get XL engines that only take up 66.7% of the space compared to IS XL, which makes them more survivable. The combination of lighter and yet more dangerous weapons, lighter and more durable engines, and typically carrying more armor makes Clan 'Mechs disproportionately powerful. For example, in the 3050 TRO, the average Inner Sphere Assault 'Mech has 233 armor and 59 kph speed. The high and low were 304 and 160, respectively. Then you have these from the Clanners in the same TRO:

Nova ... 160 armor, 86 kph
Stormcrow ... 182 armor, 97 kph
Mad Dog ... 163 armor, 86 kph
Summoner ... 182 armor, 86 kph
Timber Wolf ... 230 armor, 86 kph
Gargoyle ... 211 armor, 86 kph
Warhawk ... 259 armor, 65 kph
Executioner ... 259 armor, 65 kph
Dire Wolf ... 304 armor, 54 kph

A balanced Company could easily have its hands full with a Star and easily overwhelmed by a Binary.

Edited by Hunson Abadeer, 04 July 2012 - 10:59 PM.

[phelancracken]

Again,

NOT double the weight of armour. Also, by your example, the Clan average armour value is 258 for the assaults. Compared to IS 233 by your example. Roughly a 1 1/2 tons of standard armour difference. For Clan heavies, that's 174 points rounded up. Clan mediums, it's a 155 point average after looking and verifying the Ice Ferret and Viper armour values by TRO 3050.

As for powerful, if you don't loose tech and improve on it, what the heck do you think is going to happen? Stagnation? Seriously, Clans never lost their data base of tech.

Second, depending on the balance used, aka, BV, your not going to see too many clan assaults in that Star against 3050 tech mechs. (I won't get more specific due to everyone having their favorite mech they wish to use.) So if you don't have the armour to slug it out, what to you need to keep from dying? That's right, mobility, or speed.

Second, you don't compare the clan ERML to the IS LL. You compare it to the IS ML. Or what the heck are you comparing the Clan ERLL too, hmmm? Of for that matter, the Clan ERSL?

Clan ERML is an improvement to the ML. 67% more range, 67% more heat, and 40% more punch. Now, if your going to compare the Clan ERLL to the IS LLs go for it. The IS ERLL is an obvious improvement to the LL. And anyone that wants to improve their military tech would try and take the same ER tech and use it on their medium and small class lasers to improve their abilities. IS did it in the later part of the 3050s and in the 3060s.

Edited by phelancracken, 05 July 2012 - 06:09 AM.

[Hunson Abadeer]

phelancracken, on 05 July 2012 - 05:52 AM, said:

Again,

NOT double the weight of armour. Also, by your example, the Clan average armour value is 258 for the assaults. Compared to IS 233 by your example. Roughly a 1 1/2 tons of standard armour difference. For Clan heavies, that's 174 points rounded up. Clan mediums, it's a 155 point average after looking and verifying the Ice Ferret and Viper armour values by TRO 3050.

As for powerful, if you don't loose tech and improve on it, what the heck do you think is going to happen? Stagnation? Seriously, Clans never lost their data base of tech.

Second, depending on the balance used, aka, BV, your not going to see too many clan assaults in that Star against 3050 tech mechs. (I won't get more specific due to everyone having their favorite mech they wish to use.) So if you don't have the armour to slug it out, what to you need to keep from dying? That's right, mobility, or speed.

Second, you don't compare the clan ERML to the IS LL. You compare it to the IS ML. Or what the heck are you comparing the Clan ERLL too, hmmm? Of for that matter, the Clan ERSL?

Clan ERML is an improvement to the ML. 67% more range, 67% more heat, and 40% more punch. Now, if your going to compare the Clan ERLL to the IS LLs go for it. The IS ERLL is an obvious improvement to the LL. And anyone that wants to improve their military tech would try and take the same ER tech and use it on their medium and small class lasers to improve their abilities. IS did it in the later part of the 3050s and in the 3060s.

First, I did not say it was double the armor. The point is that the Clans had 'Mechs that had more armor for the weight of the 'Mech. As I showed, the Clans have numerous 'Mechs in the 3050 TRO that have as much armor as Inner Sphere Assault 'Mechs. They are able to carry more armor as part of the overall package because of lighter engines, lighter weapons, &c.

Second, the Clans taken as a whole are faster, have better damage, have better range, have better heat dissipation, and have more armor as part of the package compared to what an Inner Sphere 'Mech could achieve. The Clan 'Mechs are better across the board.

Finally, I compared the CERML to the ISLL because it is a Clan MEDIUM performing as an Inner Sphere LARGE. That is the entire point. Comparing the CERLL to the ISLL would demonstrate the fact that the Clans are overpowered, but that point is made a lot better by showing a Clan medium laser being able to perform like an Inner Sphere large while generating less heat and weighing much less.

[phelancracken]

Pardon,

my point is still valid,

The clan armour is barely 1.5 tons more protection across the board in the assualt catagory. You may not have say double the armour, but you are suggesting they have vast amounts more. No they don't. XL engines yes, difinite advantage, however, IS came close to matching that with the light engines. Granted, that's over a decade away, but considering they didn't have advanced tech before 3030, quite remarkable right?

As for the Clan ERLL, You forgot the ISERLL. IS do get ERML and ERSLs with some time. You compare apples to apples. The clan ERML isn't over powering. It's showing what progress can do.

Let's compare the ERLLs then.

Clan gets 25% more damage, same heat, 32% more range. 50% less crits and 20% lighter. Again, not overpowering. If IS had the tech during the succession wars, they most likely would have gotten this advanced. Like the IS PPC, the ISLL is a weapon system that's becoming outdated back in the Star League era. The ERPPC was used so much due to it removing the minimums of PPCs as well as the greater range. Granted, 50% more heat, but, it was a hard hitting primary weapon. The ERLL was still a good weapon, but some people look at it as not a very good improvement on the LL. 4 hexes more range for 50% more heat. Meh, it was a start.

Clans aren't overpowered, if they were, they wouldn't have been kept in the game for 22 years. I have seen this for 22 years. Clans are overpowered, they should be the same tech, blah, blah, blah. They are the same tech. Just more advanced in that they have perfected everything that was available during Star League plus carried on the improvements that Star League tech suggested. Yes, more advanced, They use essentially the same weapons but are lighter, smaller, have more range or punch or a combination. I don't care if you don't want to admit it, but the clans prefected Star League tech. Until they came out with the Heavy Laser, they didn't come out with a new weapons system until then.

Everything about the clan tech in trying to make it work with IS boils down to this, we have no clue how they did that, and how they can make this. But when combined with the Helm memory core and reverse engineering, all sorts of things happen.

So,

you want to compare clan mechs having IS assualt level armour? Okay...you asked for this

IS mechs having 160 or better points of armour.

Warhammer 6R 160pts
Maraunder 3R 176pts
Dragon DRG-1N 160 pts
Hunchback 4G 160pts
Flashman 7k 216pts
Orion 1K 232pts
Kintaro KTO-18 176 pts
Thunderbolt 5S 208pts (IIRC)

I could keep going. There are a lot of IS mechs with 160pts of armour that are heavies and more than a few at the medium level. This armour advantage is more phantom than IS wants to admit.

Edited by phelancracken, 05 July 2012 - 09:17 AM.

[Hunson Abadeer]

phelancracken, on 05 July 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

Pardon,

my point is still valid,

The clan armour is barely 1.5 tons more protection across the board in the assualt catagory. You may not have say double the armour, but you are suggesting they have vast amounts more. No they don't. XL engines yes, difinite advantage, however, IS came close to matching that with the light engines. Granted, that's over a decade away, but considering they didn't have advanced tech before 3030, quite remarkable right?

As for the Clan ERLL, You forgot the ISERLL. IS do get ERML and ERSLs with some time. You compare apples to apples. The clan ERML isn't over powering. It's showing what progress can do.

Let's compare the ERLLs then.

Clan gets 25% more damage, same heat, 32% more range. 50% less crits and 20% lighter. Again, not overpowering. If IS had the tech during the succession wars, they most likely would have gotten this advanced. Like the IS PPC, the ISLL is a weapon system that's becoming outdated back in the Star League era. The ERPPC was used so much due to it removing the minimums of PPCs as well as the greater range. Granted, 50% more heat, but, it was a hard hitting primary weapon. The ERLL was still a good weapon, but some people look at it as not a very good improvement on the LL. 4 hexes more range for 50% more heat. Meh, it was a start.

Clans aren't overpowered, if they were, they wouldn't have been kept in the game for 22 years. I have seen this for 22 years. Clans are overpowered, they should be the same tech, blah, blah, blah. They are the same tech. Just more advanced in that they have perfected everything that was available during Star League plus carried on the improvements that Star League tech suggested. Yes, more advanced, They use essentially the same weapons but are lighter, smaller, have more range or punch or a combination. I don't care if you don't want to admit it, but the clans prefected Star League tech. Until they came out with the Heavy Laser, they didn't come out with a new weapons system until then.

Everything about the clan tech in trying to make it work with IS boils down to this, we have no clue how they did that, and how they can make this. But when combined with the Helm memory core and reverse engineering, all sorts of things happen.

So,

you want to compare clan mechs having IS assualt level armour? Okay...you asked for this

IS mechs having 160 or better points of armour.

Warhammer 6R 160pts
Maraunder 3R 176pts
Dragon DRG-1N 160 pts
Hunchback 4G 160pts
Flashman 7k 216pts
Orion 1K 232pts
Kintaro KTO-18 176 pts
Thunderbolt 5S 208pts (IIRC)

I could keep going. There are a lot of IS mechs with 160pts of armour that are heavies and more than a few at the medium level. This armour advantage is more phantom than IS wants to admit.

First, the Clans fielded lighter 'Mechs that had equal or better armor than Inner Sphere 'Mechs that weighed much more. You are trying to use the game mechanics to mask the issue. 'Mechs have the same cap relative to weight. As an overall package, however, the Clans can field 'Mechs with much better overall packages than their Inner Sphere counterparts. That fact is not negated by the mechanics of the game.

Second, I did not forget the ISERLL, which was brand new. You are entirely missing the point. This is not an issue of apples to apples because the point is that the CERML is actually better than the ISLL. You are again trying to mask the issue at hand by using Inner Sphere technology that was not yet common. The Clans were designed to be ridiculously overpowered against Level 1 technology, and Level 2 Inner Sphere technology was designed to close the gap a little bit.

Third, Clantech is overpowered, and FASA knew that. That is why the Clans were limited by custom from the very beginning. They bid away their forces, avoid concentrating their fire, and whatnot BECAUSE they are overpowered. All of their other advantages had to be balanced by their customs and traditions to give Inner Sphere players a chance of competing, period. You cannot use the overall package as a reason to say that their technology is not overpowered when the overall package is purposely designed as a check on the overpowered nature of their technology. Even the BV system is designed to check the Clans because they have Light 'Mechs with BV equal to Inner Sphere Assaults. That is the entire point of suggesting the Company-Star model. It would only be using the checks on their power that FASA designed.

Finally, I asked for what? You to continue making my point for me?

Hunchback ... 50 tons, 160 armor, 18.5 tons for weapons, 65 kph
Kintaro ... 55 tons, 179 armor, 18 tons for weapons, 86 kph
Dragon ... 60 tons, 160 armor, 19 tons for weapons, 86 kph
Flashman ... 75 tons, 216 armor, 22.5 tons for weapons, 86 kph
Orion ... 75 tons, 232 armor, 28 tons for weapons, 65 kph

Nova ... 50 tons, 160 armor, 12 tons for weapons, 86 kph
Stormcrow ... 55 tons, 182 armor, 23 tons for weapons, 97 kph
Mad Dog ... 60 tons, 163 armor, 28 tons for weapons, 86 kph
Timber Wolf ... 75 tons, 230 armor, 27.5 tons for weapons, 86 kph

I am not going to touch the Unseen. The Hunchback looks impressive with its weapons tonnage until you actually look at it, and the Nova is a good bit faster while packing a punch. The Stormcrow embarrasses the Kintaro. The Mad Dog matches the Dragon in armor and speed with 47.4% more tonnage for weapons. The Timber Wolf embarrasses the Flashman, and the Orion only comes close in terms of armor and weapons tonnage while watching the Timber Wolf run away in terms of speed. It is also important to note that 27.5 tons for Clan weapons means a lot more than 28 tons of Level 1, or even Level 2, Inner Sphere tech.

The Clans can field 'Mechs that have greater weapon range and damage, better heat dissipation, greater speed, and better overall armor compared to the Inner Sphere, period, dot, the end. The vast majority of Inner Sphere designs do not even come close to the Clans. Just because a handful of designs out of many match one characteristic or another does not somehow negate the munchiness of the Clans. If my 'Mech has to go slower and carry fewer weapons to match your armor, then you have a serious advantage. If my 'Mech has to carry fewer weapons and less armor to match your speed, then you have a serious advantage. If my 'Mech has to go slower and carry less armor to match your weapons tonnage, then you have a serious advantage. You cannot parse your way out of that reality.

FASA designed Clantech to be overwhelmingly powerful compared to the Inner Sphere, period. The Clans were supposed to steamroll over the Inner Sphere. FASA created a system of customs and traditions to limit the Clans in other ways so as to try to balance them out some while still making them very powerful relative to the Inner Sphere. The mechanics of the Clans are proof of that. If the Clans were truly balanced with the Inner Sphere, they would not be so powerful relative to the same. For example, if hypothetical A is three times more powerful than hypothetical B, the perfect balance would be 3B versus A, not 2B versus A. The Clans were designed to be much more powerful in a mechanical sense, and they were only somewhat checked by the fluff. The Inner Sphere also had to rely on artillery, mines, dirty tricks, and so on to be able to compete and win. Focusing solely on the armor number simply is not intellectually honest because it ignores the fact that every 'Mech design is a balance between speed, armor, heat dissipation, and weapons, and the Clans have huge advantages when it comes to maximizing each category. If an Inner Sphere design matches a Clan design in one category and loses in every other category, they are not "balanced" relative to each other.

[phelancracken]

Snicker.

Another one of those clans are too overpowered. You stated that clan mechs have assault level armour and I showed quite a few IS mechs that have that level of armour. 3025 tech and if we go to 3050, just quit buddy. All those mechs I quoted were 3025 tech, not 3050 which would have been worse. Not to mention, that any other advanced designs in the 3055 TROs or later get faster, with better equipment.

Another one of those clan ERML is the LL part. No it's not. In fact, let's compare it to the IS ERML. Yes, gasp, that will exist. At that point, it's 25% more range, same heat, and 40% more damage. So why isn't that weapon compared to the IS LL? That's right it's IS tech so don't do that.

As for mechs in 3050 tech with good speed and armour equal to 3025 assualts. I am making a point, most of these designs are mediums to light heavies with the exception of the Flashman:

Crab CRB-27 161 5/8/0 speed
Enforcer ENF-5D 161 5/8/5 speed
Kintaro KTO-20 179 5/8 speed
Shadow Hawk 5M 158 5/8/5 speed
Wolverine 7D 179 5/8/5
Grand Dragon DRG-5K 160 6/9/0 Hey, that's clanner speeds
Flashman 8K 214 5/8/0 Clanner speeds again.

Point is, the IS hasn't had the time to improve all designs to the faster speeds that XL engines give. Not to mention, some designs, were meant for a 4/6 speed or 4/6/4. Where the balance is that the IS gets more mechs on the field that counters the superior weapons. Just like one example of 40k that was mentioned in this forum today, they have the worst gear, but they overwhelm the opponent by sheer numbers.

As for huge advantages? Let's see, armour 8% if using ferro. XL, won't die from a side torso loss so big advantage. Heat dissapation, IS can match. Ranges, to a degree, 32% on up. But some weapons don't have a range advantage or damage. Guass rifle. Ignoring the Armour is a factor due to the sheer fact that having to destroy mechs that out number you and can usually take hits just about as good as you does tend to balance out the problem.

As for thinking this game is going to be like the MW series before, it's been stated they are going to follow TT as much as possible. Meaning, the MW series like repairs in the middle of battle don't exist. You choose your weapons wisely and carefully.

Clans are more powerful one on one. But IS has always had the numbers and that's how the game is played. I would suggest you get used to that. Calling it crutchtech or munckin tech is a sign of an IS purist.

IS purist

a person who believes that the game was ruined when the clans were introduced and the game should make them fight with IS tech no matter what. This isn't Counterstrike or anyother game that's based off reality. It's science fic. And before someone says they can rewrite that, remember this, they can rewrite YOUR side too where you would hate it. Becareful what you wish for.

[Hunson Abadeer]

phelancracken, on 05 July 2012 - 12:11 PM, said:

Snicker.

Another one of those clans are too overpowered. You stated that clan mechs have assault level armour and I showed quite a few IS mechs that have that level of armour. 3025 tech and if we go to 3050, just quit buddy. All those mechs I quoted were 3025 tech, not 3050 which would have been worse. Not to mention, that any other advanced designs in the 3055 TROs or later get faster, with better equipment.

Another one of those clan ERML is the LL part. No it's not. In fact, let's compare it to the IS ERML. Yes, gasp, that will exist. At that point, it's 25% more range, same heat, and 40% more damage. So why isn't that weapon compared to the IS LL? That's right it's IS tech so don't do that.

As for mechs in 3050 tech with good speed and armour equal to 3025 assualts. I am making a point, most of these designs are mediums to light heavies with the exception of the Flashman:

Crab CRB-27 161 5/8/0 speed
Enforcer ENF-5D 161 5/8/5 speed
Kintaro KTO-20 179 5/8 speed
Shadow Hawk 5M 158 5/8/5 speed
Wolverine 7D 179 5/8/5
Grand Dragon DRG-5K 160 6/9/0 Hey, that's clanner speeds
Flashman 8K 214 5/8/0 Clanner speeds again.

Point is, the IS hasn't had the time to improve all designs to the faster speeds that XL engines give. Not to mention, some designs, were meant for a 4/6 speed or 4/6/4. Where the balance is that the IS gets more mechs on the field that counters the superior weapons. Just like one example of 40k that was mentioned in this forum today, they have the worst gear, but they overwhelm the opponent by sheer numbers.

As for huge advantages? Let's see, armour 8% if using ferro. XL, won't die from a side torso loss so big advantage. Heat dissapation, IS can match. Ranges, to a degree, 32% on up. But some weapons don't have a range advantage or damage. Guass rifle. Ignoring the Armour is a factor due to the sheer fact that having to destroy mechs that out number you and can usually take hits just about as good as you does tend to balance out the problem.

As for thinking this game is going to be like the MW series before, it's been stated they are going to follow TT as much as possible. Meaning, the MW series like repairs in the middle of battle don't exist. You choose your weapons wisely and carefully.

Clans are more powerful one on one. But IS has always had the numbers and that's how the game is played. I would suggest you get used to that. Calling it crutchtech or munckin tech is a sign of an IS purist.

IS purist

a person who believes that the game was ruined when the clans were introduced and the game should make them fight with IS tech no matter what. This isn't Counterstrike or anyother game that's based off reality. It's science fic. And before someone says they can rewrite that, remember this, they can rewrite YOUR side too where you would hate it. Becareful what you wish for.

First, it is 3049. The 3050 'Mechs are practically brand new at this point. The 3050 'Mechs that are "better" are Level 2 'Mechs, which still are not on equal footing with Clantech. You cannot use further developments of Level 2 technology as an excuse when such things will not be available to the Inner Sphere for another few years.

Second, there is no point in comparing the ISERML to the ISLL because the former is brand new and the latter is common. The CERML is, however, common. The ISERML has 62.5% of the heat, 62.5% of the damage, 80% of the range, 20% of the weight, and 50% of the critical space. The ISLL is still the more powerful weapon compared to the ISERML. The CERML, however, has 62.5% of the heat, 87.5% of the damage, 100% of the range, 20% of the weight, and takes up 50% of the critical slots. The CERML sacrifices 1-point of damage compared to the ISLL, but it creates less heat, weighs much less, takes up less space, and has the same range. The Nova is essentially a 50-ton 'Mech with 86 kph speed and the equivalent of a dozen large lasers at its disposal.

Third, you are still trying to parse out Inner Sphere designs to pretend that they are somehow in the same league without looking at the total package.

Crab ... 50 tons, 161 armor, 11.5 tons for weapons, 86 kph
Enforcer ... 50 tons, 161 armor, 19 tons for weapons, 86 kph
Grand Dragon ... 60 tons, 160 armor, 17.5 tons for weapons, 97 kph

Nova ... 50 tons, 160 armor, 12 tons for weapons, 86 kph
Stormcrow ... 55 tons, 182 armor, 23 tons for weapons, 97 kph
Mad Dog ... 60 tons, 163 armor, 28 tons for weapons, 86 kph

The Nova and Crab only look similar in those limited factors, but the Nova would easily destroy the Crab as it packs much more of a punch thanks to Clantech. The Enforcer looks alright compared to the Nova and Stormcrow, but its XL engine takes up 33% more space and thus makes it easier to knock out. The potential of the Mad Dog just embarrasses the Grand Dragon every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Inner Sphere technology does not compare to Clantech, period. You can keep trying to parse it out to ignore the mountain of evidence standing against you, but that evidence remains all the same. It is also nonsensical to say that the Inner Sphere can match the Clans in heat dissipation. Clan double heatsinks take up less space than their Inner Sphere counterparts, so the Clans have a higher ceiling for heat dissipation than the Inner Sphere.

Finally, why don't you stop trying to claim positions like I am at odds with said positions? I am arguing for the standard rules as implemented by FASA. I am not arguing for this game to be anything like past MW games, which were noncanonical and utterly inaccurate. I am not arguing for anything to be rewritten. FASA designed Clantech to be overpowered. FASA designed customs and traditions to balance the Clantech in practice rather than in theory. The primary check on Clantech HAS ALWAYS been that the Clanners ensure they are outnumbered of their own accord, which fit perfectly with the BV system because the result should ALWAYS be the Clanners are outnumbered pound-for-pound. You seem to keep making arguments in favor of the unfettered Company-Binary model like the Inner Sphere and Clans are close in performance when they simply are not, but you then lay claim to the exact opposite position like the Clanners should indeed be outnumbered because they are indeed overpowered relative to the Inner Sphere.

Munchkin (noun) \ˈmənch-ˌkin\ : a power gamer that abuses the game mechanics and/or uses unbalanced and overpowered items to maximize their ability to win games; most often drawn to the Clans; typically identified as being younger, whiny when they do not get their way, and coming to BattleTech through inaccurate video games hence the term (short with high-pitched voices like the munchkins in the Wizard of Oz); largely ignores character development as only winning matters; can be relied upon to defend their power gaming with circular logic and/or throwing things.

Derived terms:

Munch (noun) \ˈmənch\ : the overpowered items and loopholes used by munchkins.

Munchiness (noun) \ˈmən-chē-nes\ : something possessing munch-like qualities.

Munchy (adjective) \ˈmən-chē\ : the quality of being overpowered.

Edited by Hunson Abadeer, 05 July 2012 - 01:19 PM.

[phelancracken]

LOL!

Any IS purist that wants clans nuetered is always wanting call clans munch. Game mechanics have worked for 22 years. I truly wish people would get it through their heads that the clans are not going away, they are not overpowered, and in TT, BV has worked rather well to keep the game balanced.

Second, your the one that wanted to compare the clan ERML to an ISLL. I called you on it. It's not a Large class laser. It's a very good medium laser. Shall we start comparing the clan ERSL to the ISML? Seriously. I don't care if the clan ERML is common, you compare it to a medium laser class weapon. Or better start comparing it to the ISERML. Apples to Apples. Whether you like it or not, the ISERML is coming. So we can compare it. It's got known stats in TT. BV also plays into the clan lore of having smaller clan mechs fight larger IS mechs. More honor that way gained.

Third, the ISERLL is Star League tech. Not new tech. It's recovered Lostech. Clans never lost their tech. They improved on what they had. They never created a brand new from scratch weapon system until the heavy laser. Everything else they have can be traced to Star League tech roots.

Fourth, we don't know how the game is going to introduce the newer 3050 tech mechs. I can prove that all weapons that were Star League lostech along with all mech equipment used by 3050 TRO was in use before that year. Mercenaries Supplemental II pg 88. Supposedly all tech that was available prior to 3050 will be available. We shall see.

BTW, I have been playing TT since 1990 as an adult. So that should give you an idea that I look at it from the TT side and I have played it from the MW and MC side. I know a lot of the history before then from Marauders that promoted the game before 1990 to when it FIRST came out. But I won't mention it due to it being said 3rd party.

That being said, I play clan and IS. I know what mechs work for me and especially what weight classes work best for me. I have said this a few times, not an LRM boat player. Not my thing. Prefer either energy or ballistic.


As for overpowered, no, they are not. Yes, they are more powerful, but they can be balanced. We don't know how the Devs are going to do it, they might even use BV2. It's worked for TT for some time. Considering that gunnery and piloting cannot be factors in BV due to the nature of a computer game, much easier to balance.

IS purists

always complaining that clans are munch tech. They are overpowered. They are this, they can do that. Seriously, if they were that overpowered, they would have been corrected in the 22 years of TT.

Edited by phelancracken, 05 July 2012 - 08:38 PM.

[Hunson Abadeer]

phelancracken, on 05 July 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

LOL!

Any IS purist that wants clans nuetered is always wanting call clans munch. Game mechanics have worked for 22 years. I truly wish people would get it through their heads that the clans are not going away, they are not overpowered, and in TT, BV has worked rather well to keep the game balanced.

Second, your the one that wanted to compare the clan ERML to an ISLL. I called you on it. It's not a Large class laser. It's a very good medium laser. Shall we start comparing the clan ERSL to the ISML? Seriously. I don't care if the clan ERML is common, you compare it to a medium laser class weapon. Or better start comparing it to the ISERML. Apples to Apples. BV also plays into the clan lore of having smaller clan mechs fight larger IS mechs. More honor that way gained.

Third, the ISERLL is Star League tech. Not new tech. It's recovered Lostech. Clans never lost their tech. They improved on what they had. They never created a brand new from scratch weapon system until the heavy laser. Everything else they have can be traced to Star League tech roots.

BTW, I have been playing TT since 1990 as an adult. So that should give you an idea that I look at it from the TT side and I have played it from the MW and MC side. I know a lot of the history before then from Marauders that promoted the game before 1990 to when it FIRST came out. But I won't mention it due to it being said 3rd party.

That being said, I play clan and IS. I know what mechs work for me and especially what weight classes work best for me. I have said this a few times, not an LRM boat player. Not my thing. Prefer either energy or ballistic.


As for overpowered, no, they are not. Yes, they are more powerful, but they can be balanced. We don't know how the Devs are going to do it, they might even use BV2. It's worked for TT for some time. Considering that gunnery and piloting cannot be factors in BV due to the nature of a computer game, much easier to balance.

IS purists

always complaining that clans are munch tech. They are overpowered. They are this, they can do that. Seriously, if they were that overpowered, they would have been corrected in the 22 years of TT.

OK, I am asking this seriously. Is English your first language?

1.) I have not argued once for the Clans to be neutered. I have argued the exact opposite. I want the Clans to be just as powerful as they are in the tabletop game with the same checks and balances that they were designed with originally. You keep creating straw men to argue against and simply declare that I hold those positions when I do not.

2.) I compared the Clan ER medium laser to the Large Laser BECAUSE it is a medium class laser that performs as well as the LL. The fact that a Clan medium laser of any sort is as good as an Inner Sphere large laser shows that the former is overpowered relative to the latter. Using your "logic," however, the CERLL produces 50% more heat than the Large Laser, 25% more damage, 67% greater range, 20% less weight, and 50% less critical space. Congratulations. You just proved that the CERML is a better weapon than the ISLL and the CERLL is even better. I have no idea how you think that supports anything you have said, but congratulations nonetheless.

3.) Again, I have been saying that FASA balanced the overpowered Clantech through the customs and traditions of the Clans (lore/fluff), and the BV system reinforced that YEARS after the lore/fluff was first introduced. You cannot repeat my point to me and claim it as your own.

4.) First, what does the ISERLL have anything to do with this discussion? That was Star League technology, and there was no ERML in the 2750 TRO (1989). The ERLL and pulse lasers returned in the 3050 TRO (1990), but so what? The vast majority of designs were still using standard large and medium lasers. Even if the ERLL and LPL were common, so what? They still are not as good as Clan designs. I cannot fathom how you think continually pointing to weaker Inner Sphere technology proves that Clantech is not overpowered relative to the same. Inner Sphere technology was Level 1. Clantech was designed to be MORE POWERFUL. Level 2 Inner Sphere technology was only designed to perform a little better than L1 while still being weaker than Clantech. Would you prefer that IS tech be called "underpowered" despite having been the status quo and thus the standard by which Clantech was to be measured?

5.) The phrase "overpowered" is accurate. The word "overpower" means to overcome by superior force (Here). Clantech is better across the board compared to Inner Sphere technology, and it OVERPOWERS the Inner Sphere technology when the two are put side-by-side. By definition, that means it is overpowered relative to the Inner Sphere as I have been saying. FASA understood that, which is why they created all of the fluff that tried to balance the power of the technology. Your argument that "they would have been corrected" is nonsensical. BattleTech rules have been revised numerous times over the years. The transitions from CV to BV1 to BV2 alone actually INCREASED the cost of Clantech, which means you get LESS than you once could. THAT IS CORRECTING IT. The Adder was equal to the AS7-D under BV1, but it is MORE EXPENSIVE under BV2.

Fact: Inner Sphere technology existed FIRST in the real world. The 3025 TRO came out in 1986. The 2750 TRO came out in 1989. The 3050 TRO came out FOUR YEARS AFTER 3025. Clantech was MORE POWERFUL than what was already in use, and it was designed to be that way.

Fact: Clantech allows designs that far exceed anything possible pound-for-pound using Inner Sphere tech.

Fact: The standard Clan 'Mech has access to weapons that far exceed what the average Inner Sphere 'Mech uses in 3050.

Fact: FASA introduced the odd customs to the Clans as soon as they were introduced to help balance the power of the tech, which is a tacit acknowledgement that the Clantech was overpowered compared to the Inner Sphere technology.

At this point, I am left assuming that there is some sort of language barrier here.

[Blaze32]

Slechtvalk, on 03 July 2012 - 12:21 AM, said:

Sorry, my mothertongue is not english,

what you also forgot to mention is, the art of war.

Clanwar means a bet before fight. Honor is very important, so clanners will always bet with how less units they engage. So Clan vs. IS means that clanners will be outnumbered at their own will, cause they know how strong they are.
This is something giving equal chances. Playing tabletop would lead into this roleplay, but how this would/could be done ingame, depends on the players.

They could do this idea have 2 stars of clan mechs verses 3 lances of IS mechs
that would be 12v10 which is a bit unfair for the IS so maybe like a different post i read that had it so that in the middle of the match a clan star drops in and attacks your team and the opponet and you both have to work together to defeat them. thiswould be cool for the begining but would be weird in the middle of the clan/IS wars because everyone teamed up to fight off the clans.

(if i am wrong on my info oops)

[phelancracken]

Okay buddy,

I have challenged you to find in the Core rule sets that zell is a tournament rule. It's NOT! Get off that right now. Second, I just love it when someone continues to compare the LL to a medium laser. If your going to compare a Clan ERLL to the LL go for it. There is the ISERLL. When compared to that weapon, the Clan ERLL is 25% more damage, 32% more range. Gasp, now was that so hard was it?

Clans are more powerful. Yes, but they do have one weakness that anyone who has played TT would know, They cannot carry more than the maximum amount of armour allowed per weight class. So they have to fight smarter to overcome superior numbers.

Again, your making the mistake comparing a Large class laser to a medium. Either compare large versus large and medium versus medium or don't go there. For that matter, the Clan ERSL does the same damage as the ISML, has 67% of the range, and does it with only 67% of the heat for half the tonnage. Should it be equivalent to a near ISML? No, it's a small laser that's been extended range.

If they wanted Zell included in the core rules, it would have been put in the core rules. Either find that or quit trying to say they need to do the Zell. It was meant for Role play not TT BT. The source books for the Clans are fluff and are meant to help create a back story for the clans just like the source books for the Houses are. They are not meant to supercede TT BT rules unless your got a GM and playing mechwarrior only style game play.

That being said, I did say we don't know how fast that the new mechs would be available. I am inferring from what I have read that anything available at 3049 is available at the start of the game. Which means all 3050 tech has been available for years now. Mechs if they want to follow the fluff, might not. I don't know.

Overpowered also suggests that it can't be balanced. So are you trying to say it should be stated as more powerful? That is a more accurate term. It wasn't just the tech, it was the superior gunner pilots that the clans had that made them so devastating. A 3/4 versus a 4/5 does make a difference.

Also, the Nova A has minor heat issues. I look at a mech and see if it can fire it main weapons for at least a turn while running before hitting heat 5 before I consider the mech a decent mech. It has to bracket fire to keep cool.

I also want to ask you, is your first language English? You seem to delight in comparing a LL to a clan ERML. That's a trademark of someone saying the clans are "overpowered" they need to be nerfed. That has been a point of contention by me for as long as you have been doing it.

Fact, zell isn't in a core rule set. Meaning, in TT tournaments, it's not something that's expected or enforced.

Fact Zell depending on the clan, won't be given to IS. They are considered barbarians especially how they behaved under zell., in general. DC I exclude some of you due to following Zell quite a few times in canon as it follows bushido.

[Rejarial Galatan]

simply put, is what everyone has said: the IS screwed up big by, well, screwing up the IS with succession wars and losing tech and what not. The clans, did not make this mistake, and perfected the technology, AND the pilots. The IS did not do either.

[Hunson Abadeer]

phelancracken, on 05 July 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

Okay buddy,

I have challenged you to find in the Core rule sets that zell is a tournament rule. It's NOT! Get off that right now. Second, I just love it when someone continues to compare the LL to a medium laser. If your going to compare a Clan ERLL to the LL go for it. There is the ISERLL. When compared to that weapon, the Clan ERLL is 25% more damage, 32% more range. Gasp, now was that so hard was it?

Clans are more powerful. Yes, but they do have one weakness that anyone who has played TT would know, They cannot carry more than the maximum amount of armour allowed per weight class. So they have to fight smarter to overcome superior numbers.

Again, your making the mistake comparing a Large class laser to a medium. Either compare large versus large and medium versus medium or don't go there. For that matter, the Clan ERSL does the same damage as the ISML, has 67% of the range, and does it with only 67% of the heat for half the tonnage. Should it be equivalent to a near ISML? No, it's a small laser that's been extended range.

If they wanted Zell included in the core rules, it would have been put in the core rules. Either find that or quit trying to say they need to do the Zell. It was meant for Role play not TT BT. The source books for the Clans are fluff and are meant to help create a back story for the clans just like the source books for the Houses are. They are not meant to supercede TT BT rules unless your got a GM and playing mechwarrior only style game play.

That being said, I did say we don't know how fast that the new mechs would be available. I am inferring from what I have read that anything available at 3049 is available at the start of the game. Which means all 3050 tech has been available for years now. Mechs if they want to follow the fluff, might not. I don't know.

Overpowered also suggests that it can't be balanced. So are you trying to say it should be stated as more powerful? That is a more accurate term. It wasn't just the tech, it was the superior gunner pilots that the clans had that made them so devastating. A 3/4 versus a 4/5 does make a difference.

Also, the Nova A has minor heat issues. I look at a mech and see if it can fire it main weapons for at least a turn while running before hitting heat 5 before I consider the mech a decent mech. It has to bracket fire to keep cool.

I also want to ask you, is your first language English? You seem to delight in comparing a LL to a clan ERML. That's a trademark of someone saying the clans are "overpowered" they need to be nerfed. That has been a point of contention by me for as long as you have been doing it.

Fact, zell isn't in a core rule set. Meaning, in TT tournaments, it's not something that's expected or enforced.

Fact Zell depending on the clan, won't be given to IS. They are considered barbarians especially how they behaved under zell., in general. DC I exclude some of you due to following Zell quite a few times in canon as it follows bushido.

What do you not understand about this? You are trying to use the loophole that the core rules do not discuss Clan behavior when they do not discuss any behavior, which I said in another thread. None of the core rules dealt with behavior at the time the Clans were introduced because the rules all said that you either agreed on the rules (house rules) or abided by a scenario pack. The Tukayyid scenario pack (1994) specifically deals with the Clan honor system, and it says that most Clanners abided by the code throughout the invasion.

What do you not understand about the laser comparison? THE ENTIRE POINT IS TO SHOW THAT THE CLANS HAVE A SMALLER WEAPON THAT IS AS GOOD AS THE INNER SPHERE'S BIGGER WEAPON. The fact that Clan large lasers are even better does NOT somehow negate the fact that the CERML IS AS GOOD AS THE INNER SPHERE LARGE LASER. You keep regurgitating your "point" like it somehow negates something, and it negates NOTHING. The CERML-ISLL comparison is about relative power. Your CERLL-ISLL is also about relative power, but it does NOT somehow invalidate the other comparison.

As I said in the other thread, you are using the loophole of the core rules when the core rules do NOT deal with behavior, but the universe of BattleTech is defined by the source material. It is a defining characteristic of a munchkin to argue that anything technically legal under the rules is perfectly acceptable regardless of what else it violates. Gausszilla was also technically legal when first created, but it was specifically designed as a JOKE that was purposely marked to NEVER appear canonically. Why? Because it was OVERPOWERED. The people at FASA recognized that it was technically legal, but it would also be ridiculous to use (munchy). This game is not about the confines of the core rules. It is about players being immersed in the BattleTech universe, and the Clans are Clans in that universe. They are not some munchkin at a tournament table trying to find every loophole possible to win. It is people abusing loopholes and whatnot that lead to constant revisions and new rules to close those loopholes, re-balance things, &c.

The term "overpowered" implies nothing of the sort, and it is nonsensical to claim that I was implying anything of the sort. I have specifically said numerous times that Clantech was overpowered ON PURPOSE and SHOULD REMAIN THAT WAY. The Clans are BALANCED by the LORE. If the lore did not exist, then the tech would need to be balanced. It was designed, however, to purposely be overpowered and then kept in check by the lore that FASA put in place in the same source material that introduced the Clans to players. Just because something is overpowered in a mechanical sense does not mean that it "cannot be balanced" or that it "requires nerfing." I have said numerous times that I am opposed to nerfing the Clans, and you just continually ignore that. The CERML-ISLL comparison is about showing that the Clans are OVERPOWERED and should thus be BALANCED as they were DESIGNED. I keep seeing Clanners whining about potentially being outnumbered and whatnot, which is my entire point. Stop whining, keep your overpowered gobbledygook, and be balanced out by being outnumbered. Not once have I said that Clanners would or should abide by zell in this game, but it absolutely is an example that FASA recognized that Clantech was overpowered and had to be balanced by the lore. The result was that the Clans were largely balanced despite being way overpowered when it came to technology strictly speaking.

Finally, as I said in another thread, you CANNOT use books that came out well after the fact as a retroactive revision. The lore of the Clans was put in place in 1990. It was reinforced from 1991-1994 in the books, scenario packs, &c. It was revised later AFTER the Inner Sphere had been given better technology, some captured Clantech, and so on. You CANNOT revise history just because something was revised in the game later. This is not 3059, which is when the Field Manual: Crusader Clans was set. This is 3049, and the source material for the actual invasion says that the Clans had a code of honor and by and large kept to it. FASA combined overpowered technology with restrictive customs to produce a balanced enemy. They later introduced the CV, BV1, and BV2 systems, which actually turned the lore into a rule in a practical, if not outright, sense. Clanners were more expensive and thus fielded less in most battles. You can say that was just because of BV, but the effect is the same whether it is mechanical in nature or based on the lore.

[phelancracken]

Buddy,

Get off that zell thing. I have the original rules from 1990 when I bought them BRAND NEW! I told you I was playing the game back then. You lost this one. If it's NOT in the battletech core rule system, You cannot enforce it no matter what or your cheating by forcing someone to play an optional ruleset as CORE. period, end of discussion, move on. The clan source books came out AFTER the Battletech Compendium, and the TRO 3050.

Also, Total Warfare is the current legal, i repeat, LEGAL rules set for TT. Any other rules set prior to it are superceded by it for tournament play. I have repeatedly asked you to quote from a Core rules set where the zell is being enforced. It's not so quit trying to use scenario packs. Those are for those scenarios, everyone has to agree to use those rules BEFORE they can be played due to some special rules each one has. Page 8 of Total Warfare sums it up. This rules set supercedes all previous rulesets INCLUDING any scenario packs. If any rule conflicts with a Total Warfare rule, the Total Warfare rule overrides. Considering this ruleset covers the spectrum of time in the battletech universe, your arguement can't use Total Warfare is null and void. So, I realize this is MWO and they will do it their way, but currently zell isn't something that can be done in TT and I doubt it's going to be forced here. Heavily encouraged, most likely.

Third, some scenario packs are completely illegal even by Compendium standards. Gray Death Legion source book comes to mind as well as the original Black Widow Company. GRF-2N Super Griffin it's movement is 4/6/9 found in the Black Widow Company source book. Not legal in any core rules set. Scenario only mech. Grey Death Legion scenario pack, Pg 25 Heat. The defenders are near a large cold body of water, halve all heat points acquired by any mech on map 2(only) in any one turn, round fractions up. Again, not legal. Core rules are not a loophole. They are the main rules. I repeat, they are the main rules you follow as everyone has to use the same rules.

I can use other books due to Total Warfare covering even the clan invasion even up to when battlemechs were invented. It's the current rules set it supercedes others if your playing tt CBT. As for clans being overpowered, no, they are not. Only IS players say they are. In fact, I haven't seen a clan player whine about being outnumbered, but you have revealed yourself as a IS player. The use of overpowered, no, they are not when they are compared proper class versus proper class of weapons. The BV system has followed lore to a degree, I won't say it's perfect, in fact I still think it needs a bit of work, however, I haven't come up with a better system yet. So, I am not going to stop using it.

My point on the weapons is this, you want to compare smaller clan weapons against larger IS weapons, typical IS player. I also want to Honestly, how many years have you played table top Battletech? Since 1990? Page 8 of Total Warfare sums it up. This rules set supercedes all previous rulesets INCLUDING any scenario packs. If any rule conflicts with a Total Warfare rule, the Total Warfare rule overrides.

Finally,

Battlemech record sheets, Vol. 1 Light mechs, it includes the clans copywright 1990. Used points which became the CV system.
Battlemech record sheets, Vol 2 Medium mechs copywright 1991 Also used points and has clans
Battlemech record sheets, Vol 3 Heavy mechs copywright 1990 same thing as the other 2
Battlemech record sheets, Vol 4 Assault mechs copywright 1991 same thing again.

CV wasn't in use before 1994. They were using points before then. I remember a Stormcrow Prime being 2933 points by the Volume 2 charts back then.

Edited by phelancracken, 06 July 2012 - 09:04 AM.

[Hunson Abadeer]

phelancracken, on 06 July 2012 - 08:57 AM, said:

Buddy,

Get off that zell thing. I have the original rules from 1990 when I bought them BRAND NEW! I told you I was playing the game back then. You lost this one. If it's NOT in the battletech core rule system, You cannot enforce it no matter what or your cheating by forcing someone to play an optional ruleset as CORE. period, end of discussion, move on. The clan source books came out AFTER the Battletech Compendium, and the TRO 3050.

Also, Total Warfare is the current legal, i repeat, LEGAL rules set for TT. Any other rules set prior to it are superceded by it for tournament play. I have repeatedly asked you to quote from a Core rules set where the zell is being enforced. It's not so quit trying to use scenario packs. Those are for those scenarios, everyone has to agree to use those rules BEFORE they can be played due to some special rules each one has. Page 8 of Total Warfare sums it up. This rules set supercedes all previous rulesets INCLUDING any scenario packs. If any rule conflicts with a Total Warfare rule, the Total Warfare rule overrides. Considering this ruleset covers the spectrum of time in the battletech universe, your arguement can't use Total Warfare is null and void. So, I realize this is MWO and they will do it their way, but currently zell isn't something that can be done in TT and I doubt it's going to be forced here. Heavily encouraged, most likely.

Third, some scenario packs are completely illegal even by Compendium standards. Gray Death Legion source book comes to mind as well as the original Black Widow Company. GRF-2N Super Griffin it's movement is 4/6/9 found in the Black Widow Company source book. Not legal in any core rules set. Scenario only mech. Grey Death Legion scenario pack, Pg 25 Heat. The defenders are near a large cold body of water, halve all heat points acquired by any mech on map 2(only) in any one turn, round fractions up. Again, not legal. Core rules are not a loophole. They are the main rules. I repeat, they are the main rules you follow as everyone has to use the same rules.

I can use other books due to Total Warfare covering even the clan invasion even up to when battlemechs were invented. It's the current rules set it supercedes others if your playing tt CBT. As for clans being overpowered, no, they are not. Only IS players say they are. In fact, I haven't seen a clan player whine about being outnumbered, but you have revealed yourself as a IS player. The use of overpowered, no, they are not when they are compared proper class versus proper class of weapons. The BV system has followed lore to a degree, I won't say it's perfect, in fact I still think it needs a bit of work, however, I haven't come up with a better system yet. So, I am not going to stop using it.

My point on the weapons is this, you want to compare smaller clan weapons against larger IS weapons, typical IS player. I also want to Honestly, how many years have you played table top Battletech? Since 1990? Page 8 of Total Warfare sums it up. This rules set supercedes all previous rulesets INCLUDING any scenario packs. If any rule conflicts with a Total Warfare rule, the Total Warfare rule overrides.

Finally,

Battlemech record sheets, Vol. 1 Light mechs, it includes the clans copywright 1990. Used points which became the CV system.
Battlemech record sheets, Vol 2 Medium mechs copywright 1991 Also used points and has clans
Battlemech record sheets, Vol 3 Heavy mechs copywright 1990 same thing as the other 2
Battlemech record sheets, Vol 4 Assault mechs copywright 1991 same thing again.

CV wasn't in use before 1994. They were using points before then. I remember a Stormcrow Prime being 2933 points by the Volume 2 charts back then.

First, you are the one obsessed with the specific policy of zell. I simply said that FASA designed the Clans to be kept in check by custom, and you started stating that the core rules do not discuss Clan behavior when they do not discuss anyone's behavior. Based on your logic, no one has to do ANYTHING that fits their faction. Liao can act like Davion, Steiner can act like Kurita, and Kurita can act like the Clans. None of it matters because the core rules have never discussed any of that, right? Every Kuritan player should pray for the opportunity to go into battle in Hauptmann 'Mechs armed with Clantech and covered in Marik logos while singing the praises of Davion, right?

Second, as I said in another thread, FASA only published BattleTech until 2001. WizKids purchased BT in 2001 and immediately licensed it to FanPro. WizKids was purchased by Topps in 2003, which closed WizKids in 2008 and then sold it off in 2009 while keeping BattleTech. It was licensed to Catalyst in 2007. The VAST majority of BattleTech was defined by FASA, and the revisions that have occurred took place because the game is very different than it was back then. The Inner Sphere has much better technology now, but that technology WILL NOT be in this game for YEARS unless they decide to "fast forward" at some point.

Third, not once I have said that zell should be enforced in this game. I have argued in favor of the Clans being outnumbered at least somewhat because FASA designed their lore to keep them in check. Let me repeat this for you. I AM NOT SAYING THAT CLANNERS SHOULD BE FORCED TO FIGHT ONE-ON-ONE IN THIS GAME. I have never said that because it simply does not seem feasible in any meaningful way beyond rewarding people for destroying someone without help.

Fourth, you are using a loophole by IGNORING everything that comprises BATTLETECH by saying that only the CORE RULES matter. You are using a technicality to justify power gaming, which is exactly what it would be for a Clan player to field his unbalanced unit in a pre-BV match using simple numbers as the only basis for selection because it was "legal." The eventual points system ensured that the Clanners would be outnumbered, which is nothing more than the rules catching up to the lore. The core rules said that scenario packs governed the scenarios, so you cannot decide that the scenario packs were not legal.

Again, you are using non-FASA books to define what FASA created. Just because you bought a book in 2006 does not change what FASA did. I do not care what Total Warfare says when discussing the original roll out of the Clans, and it also does not matter that you keep pointing to tournament play as opposed to the actual universe the game is representing. Clan behavior is important when defining the Clans. Ignoring all of that because it helps you overwhelm a non-Clan player is a non-point.

Fifth, what do you not understand about comparing the CERML to the ISLL? I really do not understand how you do not get the point. A medium laser should be less powerful than a large laser, generically. All of the Clan large lasers are more powerful than the ISLL as well as the more advanced versions. The fact that the CERML is as good as the ISLL is the point. A Clan medium laser being as good as the standard Inner Sphere large laser in 3050 speaks to Clantech being overpowered relative to the Inner Sphere at that time. The Clan large lasers make the exact same point, but the CERML-ISLL comparison makes the point better.

Finally, I still have my original books from the late 80's. Trying to out-nerd a person based solely on seniority would not make you right anyway, but that is especially true when you do not actually hold nerd seniority.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

phelancracken, on 05 July 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

Game mechanics have worked for 22 years

cause the kids who play TT games are clearly scrambling for the latest copy of CBT

I also love how far munchkins go to defend the system, really betrays how shaky their platform is. Most TT games don't usually have fans crowing about how one faction 'was made to be powerful,' then most people wouldn't play that game - oh wait.

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 06 July 2012 - 03:11 PM.

[Vanguard319]

The clans are the descendants of the old Star League Defense Force, since they fled the Inner Sphere before the Succession wars, they took a lot of SL-era tech with them, in the ~300 years since, they ritualized warfare in order to prevent wasteful losses, while the IS practiced total war on each other. As a result Clan scientists were able to refine thier mechs into better, faster, harder-hitting, and all around more versatile machines. Likewise thier weapons were further devoloped into lighter, longer ranged, and more effective systems. Meanwhile, the Inner Sphere effectively bombed itself back into the stone age. Only a handful of automated SL-era factories exist to manufacture jumpships and other tech by the time of the fourth succession war. Most of the technology used to build mechs has been lost, or is poorly understood, hence why IS tech suffers penalties in weight, range, and damage.

To put it bluntly, it would be like the Red Baron in his Fokker triplane engaginging a modern fighter pilot in an F-22 Raptor.