90 replies to this topic

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Vanguard319, on 06 July 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

To put it bluntly, it would be like the Red Baron in his Fokker triplane engaginging a modern fighter pilot in an F-22 Raptor.

mmmm, that implies the IS are complete noobs at mechs. It's more like an F-4 Phantom or F-16 vs an F22. Sure both are jet planes, both are pretty fast, but the Raptor just has so much more.

[phelancracken]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 06 July 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

cause the kids who play TT games are clearly scrambling for the latest copy of CBT

I also love how far munchkins go to defend the system, really betrays how shaky their platform is. Most TT games don't usually have fans crowing about how one faction 'was made to be powerful,' then most people wouldn't play that game - oh wait.

I love how clan haters go so far to defend that they are right. Shows how shaky their side is. If you noticed, Clan players don't bash IS anywhere near as much as IS players who want that "pure" form of BT. I have heard the "overpowered" back in 1990 when clans were introduced. IS purists hated the fact they were introduced.

If the basic mechanics of the game didn't work, they would have been overhauled a long time ago. The computer games most generally didn't follow the TT very well. I always got a good laugh out of repairing right as the shells are going by. Techs wouldn't do that at all. Refill your coolant maybe, but that's all.

[phelancracken]

Hunson Abadeer, on 06 July 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

First, you are the one obsessed with the specific policy of zell. I simply said that FASA designed the Clans to be kept in check by custom, and you started stating that the core rules do not discuss Clan behavior when they do not discuss anyone's behavior. Based on your logic, no one has to do ANYTHING that fits their faction. Liao can act like Davion, Steiner can act like Kurita, and Kurita can act like the Clans. None of it matters because the core rules have never discussed any of that, right? Every Kuritan player should pray for the opportunity to go into battle in Hauptmann 'Mechs armed with Clantech and covered in Marik logos while singing the praises of Davion, right?

Second, as I said in another thread, FASA only published BattleTech until 2001. WizKids purchased BT in 2001 and immediately licensed it to FanPro. WizKids was purchased by Topps in 2003, which closed WizKids in 2008 and then sold it off in 2009 while keeping BattleTech. It was licensed to Catalyst in 2007. The VAST majority of BattleTech was defined by FASA, and the revisions that have occurred took place because the game is very different than it was back then. The Inner Sphere has much better technology now, but that technology WILL NOT be in this game for YEARS unless they decide to "fast forward" at some point.

Third, not once I have said that zell should be enforced in this game. I have argued in favor of the Clans being outnumbered at least somewhat because FASA designed their lore to keep them in check. Let me repeat this for you. I AM NOT SAYING THAT CLANNERS SHOULD BE FORCED TO FIGHT ONE-ON-ONE IN THIS GAME. I have never said that because it simply does not seem feasible in any meaningful way beyond rewarding people for destroying someone without help.

Fourth, you are using a loophole by IGNORING everything that comprises BATTLETECH by saying that only the CORE RULES matter. You are using a technicality to justify power gaming, which is exactly what it would be for a Clan player to field his unbalanced unit in a pre-BV match using simple numbers as the only basis for selection because it was "legal." The eventual points system ensured that the Clanners would be outnumbered, which is nothing more than the rules catching up to the lore. The core rules said that scenario packs governed the scenarios, so you cannot decide that the scenario packs were not legal.

Again, you are using non-FASA books to define what FASA created. Just because you bought a book in 2006 does not change what FASA did. I do not care what Total Warfare says when discussing the original roll out of the Clans, and it also does not matter that you keep pointing to tournament play as opposed to the actual universe the game is representing. Clan behavior is important when defining the Clans. Ignoring all of that because it helps you overwhelm a non-Clan player is a non-point.

Fifth, what do you not understand about comparing the CERML to the ISLL? I really do not understand how you do not get the point. A medium laser should be less powerful than a large laser, generically. All of the Clan large lasers are more powerful than the ISLL as well as the more advanced versions. The fact that the CERML is as good as the ISLL is the point. A Clan medium laser being as good as the standard Inner Sphere large laser in 3050 speaks to Clantech being overpowered relative to the Inner Sphere at that time. The Clan large lasers make the exact same point, but the CERML-ISLL comparison makes the point better.

Finally, I still have my original books from the late 80's. Trying to out-nerd a person based solely on seniority would not make you right anyway, but that is especially true when you do not actually hold nerd seniority.

Okay,

1. Who owns the rights to CBT? That's right it's not FASA, it's Cryptic studios. So what happened in the past is superceded by current rules.

2. Is this game going to be Mechwarrior the RPG? Is it? Most likely NOT. meaning it's going to follow TT CBT. Again, roleplaying don't have a factor in playing the game down to the core.

3. Why do you keep obsessing over the clan ERML to the ISLL? compare it to the ISERML or ML. Proper class of weapons to proper class of weapons. You keep going there and trying to say I am obsessed. Only after you started going down that path did I tell you that either compare same class of weapon to same class of weapon or don't bother.

4. If you don't care what Total Warfare says, Hey, ummm, you might want to set back and think about this, MWO is most likely going to use that ruleset due to it having the most currently compatible equipment for everything. Even if you don't want to admit, all the source books are not meant to supercede the core rules of TT Battletech or CBT. They offer something that is meant to help with the role playing.

5. Where you playing in 1984? It wasn't Battletech then. I know of a Marauder who is a personal friend who was demoing the game then. Shall we keep going? Your trying to out nerd me. I am catching you by forcing you to show me where it says in the core rule sets where all this fluff has to be followed.

6. Power gaming? Oh that's rich. We used what numbers FASA gave us with those Mech sheet booklets, which, BTW, were produced by FASA. Typical. I am not ignoring the history, but it's not ABSOLUTELY important to play the GAME! Your trying to find loopholes to force your style of play on the clans. How about we rewrite how the IS has to play and see how you like it. Turn about is fair play.

I saw in another thread where you stated if the clans never came out you would not shed a tear. That's fine. Bash the clans. But be prepared to get bashed back.

An IS Purist hates the fact that clans were introduced. Sorry, they added them for a reason. For many, I dare say the majority, it improved the game.

Edited by phelancracken, 06 July 2012 - 07:27 PM.

[Hunson Abadeer]

phelancracken, on 06 July 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:

Okay,

1. Who owns the rights to CBT? That's right it's not FASA, it's Cryptic studios. So what happened in the past is superceded by current rules.

2. Is this game going to be Mechwarrior the RPG? Is it? Most likely NOT. meaning it's going to follow TT CBT. Again, roleplaying don't have a factor in playing the game down to the core.

3. Why do you keep obsessing over the clan ERML to the ISLL? compare it to the ISERML or ML. Proper class of weapons to proper class of weapons. You keep going there and trying to say I am obsessed. Only after you started going down that path did I tell you that either compare same class of weapon to same class of weapon or don't bother.

4. If you don't care what Total Warfare says, Hey, ummm, you might want to set back and think about this, MWO is most likely going to use that ruleset due to it having the most currently compatible equipment for everything. Even if you don't want to admit, all the source books are not meant to supercede the core rules of TT Battletech or CBT. They offer something that is meant to help with the role playing.

5. Where you playing in 1984? It wasn't Battletech then. I know of a Marauder who is a personal friend who was demoing the game then. Shall we keep going? Your trying to out nerd me. I am catching you by forcing you to show me where it says in the core rule sets where all this fluff has to be followed.

I saw in another thread where you stated if the clans never came out you would not shed a tear. That's fine. Bash the clans. But be prepared to get bashed back.

An IS Purist hates the fact that clans were introduced. Sorry, they added them for a reason. For many, I dare say the majority, it improved the game.

1.) No, Topps owns BattleTech, which is licensed to Catalyst. New rules supersede old rules for playing TODAY. New rules do not revise history.

2.) I do not care what you have to say about this. They either balance it based on lore or BV. The result would be the same.

3.) You just do not make any sense. Intent: show that Clantech is overpowered relative to Inner Sphere tech in 3050. Evidence: Clan ER Medium Laser, which was the standard Clan medium laser, was as good as the Inner Sphere Large Laser, which was the standard Inner Sphere large laser. A smaller class of weapon being as good as a larger class of the same weapon proves the point.

4.) Actually, this game is set in 3049. The most applicable rules would be those in use when the game was set in 3049 because they were designed with what was in use then in mind. You want to apply rules from 3069. Again, new rules supersede old rules for future games, but they do not retroactively apply to everything that has ever occurred. Your Jihad rules are designed with the current level of technology in mind, not what existed in 3049.

5.) You are the one trying to out-nerd me by constantly bringing up seniority, and you are now resorting to, "Yeah, well, I think my friend was playing before you, so I must be right!" Your constant ranting about the core rules is what munchkins have always done. The core rules have always said that it comes down to what people agree to, or what scenario packs say. That does not somehow mean that the standard position is that FASA wasted all of their time creating all of that nice lore just for it to be ignored.

Finally, you are just creating another straw man to argue against. I have not bashed the Clans. I have simply stated facts, and you take it as bashing because you want your precious overpowered technology to be completely unchecked. I have said numerous times that the Clans should have all of their overpowered technology while being checked in other ways, but to a munchkin that is bashing?

You implied that the Clans somehow saved BattleTech or some other nonsense. I showed that FASA printed more than twice as much source material for the Inner Sphere than the Clans from 1991-2001.

[Tarl Cabot]

phelancracken, on 06 July 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

I love how clan haters go so far to defend that they are right. Shows how shaky their side is. If you noticed, Clan players don't bash IS anywhere near as much as IS players who want that "pure" form of BT. I have heard the "overpowered" back in 1990 when clans were introduced. IS purists hated the fact they were introduced.

If the basic mechanics of the game didn't work, they would have been overhauled a long time ago. The computer games most generally didn't follow the TT very well. I always got a good laugh out of repairing right as the shells are going by. Techs wouldn't do that at all. Refill your coolant maybe, but that's all.

You do realize that when the clans were first play-tested it was with SL era equipment and mechs? During the play-test period the decision was made to amp up the technology beyond SL level to allow the clans to progress through the IS, otherwise they would have been stopped dead in the water.

There is the core rulebook that has the mechanics of the game then the role-playing books on how to inter-mesh the two. And most BT sessions I myself have been involved in or observed, the players role-played the pilots in the mechs. The clan players certainly did not act like some IS kiddies with bigger/better toys.

As for when clans do show up in MWO, I would not put it pass them to have several of the clan mechs available to everyone, just as they are not limiting IS mechs to specific houses. That would be one way of combating the lack of clanner mentality among those players.

[phelancracken]

LOL!

You know, play a official game that's run at a convention for TT battletech. What ruleset is used? It's Total Warfare. You have lost that arguement. You want the clans balanced by something that isn't needed. if it was meant to be a core rule, it would have been included in a core rule set. What's the first thing a person buys if they like the game and intend to keep playing? Most of the time it's the rules. I don't care how you try and justify it, but they have had it balanced for 22 years. Adding an element that isn't in the core rules is just not a good thing forcing it just because you want it is even worse.

Second, I compare same class of weapons to same class of weapons. Otherwise, either compare the small lasers to the mediums and the Large class to PPCs for that matter. Where does it stop? That's my point.

Third, why would FASA have printed so much during the 1991 to 2001 if it was so needed in the 1984 to 1989 time frame as well? The House sourcebooks should have been printed before 1990 by your arguements. It's because the game didn't take off to warrant it at that time.

4. Then the compendium rules are in full force, NO ZELL!! That was the rule set in force when the clans came out. Show me where it is in the compendium. That's right, you admitted it's not there. Look, it's an optional rule. Trying to make it a mandatory rule is going to keep you in this state. I won't back down, your call. You want the clans checked even more than they are due to your thoughts if they never had been introduced you wouldn't have shed a tear. I know that's your opinion, that's fine. But, you don't have the right to force others to play your game if they want to play the game their way. The current TT rules cover everything including 3025 tech. So, trying to ignore that ruleset is fine in your personal games. Offical games, forget it.

5. Typical purist is going about saying that I am looking for a loophole when I am going by the rules of the game. If they wanted Zell as a true core rule, they would have INCLUDED them in the main core rules. FASA did not waste their time, it made them money, which is what a business whats to do. Make as much money from a product as possible. Be it a game system or something else. How are the paperback books modify the game rules? Was that a waste of money then by FASA? No, it still made them money.

LOL! I never said I thought my friend was playing before you. I said he was demoing in 1984. Get it right. I am talking from experience by stating I was playing the game in 1990. If that's nerdy, okay so be it. What's your point? I love the game.

Edited by phelancracken, 06 July 2012 - 08:17 PM.

[Hunson Abadeer]

phelancracken, on 06 July 2012 - 08:16 PM, said:

LOL!

You know, play a official game that's run at a convention for TT battletech. What ruleset is used? It's Total Warfare. You have lost that arguement. You want the clans balanced by something that isn't needed. if it was meant to be a core rule, it would have been included in a core rule set. What's the first thing a person buys if they like the game and intend to keep playing? Most of the time it's the rules. I don't care how you try and justify it, but they have had it balanced for 22 years. Adding an element that isn't in the core rules is just not a good thing forcing it just because you want it is even worse.

Second, I compare same class of weapons to same class of weapons. Otherwise, either compare the small lasers to the mediums and the Large class to PPCs for that matter. Where does it stop? That's my point.

Third, why would FASA have printed so much during the 1991 to 2001 if it was so needed in the 1984 to 1989 time frame as well? The House sourcebooks should have been printed before 1990 by your arguements. It's because the game didn't take off to warrant it at that time.

4. Then the compendium rules are in full force, NO ZELL!! That was the rule set in force when the clans came out. Show me where it is in the compendium. That's right, you admitted it's not there. Look, it's an optional rule. Trying to make it a mandatory rule is going to keep you in this state. I won't back down, your call. You want the clans checked even more than they are due to your thoughts if they never had been introduced you wouldn't have shed a tear. I know that's your opinion, that's fine. But, you don't have the right to force others to play your game if they want to play the game their way. The current TT rules cover everything including 3025 tech. So, trying to ignore that ruleset is fine in your personal games. Offical games, forget it.

5. Typical purist is going about saying that I am looking for a loophole when I am going by the rules of the game. If they wanted Zell as a true core rule, they would have INCLUDED them in the main core rules. FASA did not waste their time, it made them money, which is what a business whats to do. Make as much money from a product as possible. Be it a game system or something else. How are the paperback books modify the game rules? Was that a waste of money then by FASA? No, it still made them money.

LOL! I never said I thought my friend was playing before you. I said he was demoing in 1984. Get it right. I am talking from experience by stating I was playing the game in 1990. If that's nerdy, okay so be it. What's your point? I love the game.

First, I am assuming you have a time machine then since you clearly think your Jihad rules apply to the Clan invasion. Why haven't you killed any dictators yet, cured world hunger, &c.?

Second, the PPC is not the same thing as a laser. A small laser that trumped a medium laser would actually make the same point. You have not understood that simple point yet, so there is no point in me trying to explain it again.

Third, what are you talking about? Each Great House received their own book in 1987-1988 as I said elsewhere. They also released the Mercenary's Handbook in 1987. They released the NAIS The Fourth Succession War Military Atlas, Vol. 1-2 in 1988-1989. The Periphery was released in 1988. Do the math. From 1987-1990, they released 9 books about the Inner Sphere. From 1991-2001, they released another 16. FASA released a grand total of 7 books about the Clans before selling the franchise to WizKids. Let's see ... 25 ... 7 ... one of these is bigger than the other. Can you guess which one?

Fourth, yes, you're right. The entire universe of BattleTech does not matter. The game was never meant for any role-playing or anything. FASA created all of the lore as a joke that was never meant to be released to the public. Every attempt to translate BattleTech to computer games should be solely defined only by the core rules and nothing else. Of course, the core rules also do not mention anything about any of the Clans in any substantive fashion, or the Inner Sphere for that matter. Heck, the core rules do not even tell us that the invasion is legal. Let's all just play with random 'Mechs on random maps with no meaning to any of it. Yeehaw!

Fifth, it is a technicality. You choose to ignore the things outside of the core rules that do not suit you, but you adopt what you want to adopt. The non-mechanical checks on the Clans do not suit you, so they do not matter. I am sure, however, that you gleefully accept your favorite Clan as existing and doing things even though the core rules do not tell you that. I bet you even love your favorite Clan's history even though that information is only found in the source material. You just love that source material until it introduces something that could keep you from fielding the munchiest bunch of munch that ever was a munch. Then that source material was only released to make money for FASA.

[Helmer]

Just checking in, making sure we're all staying civil. Looks like it's getting a little heated, but I appreciate the passion and maturity shown by not devolving into name calling.

Thanks gents. We dont expect everyone to get along, but when mature people like you guys are able to have a heated , civil, discussion, it does help.

Thanks again.


Cheers.

[phelancracken]

First off,

You have to have access to those source books to even know what's in them, read, either interest or money. I am looking at it from that point and so did the game designers. That's why the source books and zell was not included to supplement the core rules. As for you not wanting to accept that the Total Warfare is the current rule system in place, that's your issue, not mine. Seriously, if a person wants to have their head stuck in the sand and not acknowledge that game rules evolve and change, not my problem. For example, remember infernos in the compendium? What were they able to be used in. I know from heart due to the silliness of that rule. They were allowed only in SRM-2s and Streak-2s. Look it up if you don't believe me. It wasn't an clan rule only or IS rule only. It affected both sides evenly.

Whether you like it or not, forcing another check into the system isn't needed. BV again does wonders for that. it's not the end all, but the game can work with that due to it being a proven system from the TT. If your suggesting we encourage clan players to role play but not force them to, that's fine. I can completely agree to encourage players to go that route. But there are casual players that love the clans for their lore, don't understand how zell can work right, and want to play the game as a game.

I won't agree with you on needing more checks. I vehemently disagree with you saying that PPCs shouldn't be compared to lasers yet you want to compare medium class lasers to large class lasers. it's basically this, comparing a different weapons system to another different weapons system and saying they are the same thing. Seeing as the ISERLL has 5.6% more range, 80% of the damage, 20% more heat but it's 29% lighter and 1/3 as bulky compared to an PPC. They are the same type of weapons, energy based. You persist in this comparing medium class weapons to large class weapons so let's just start comparing them to other ENERGY based weapons while we are at it.

As for technicality, I am stating facts. The core rules are what is used in tournament play and unless specified otherwise, nothing else.

[Hunson Abadeer]

phelancracken, on 06 July 2012 - 09:20 PM, said:

First off,

You have to have access to those source books to even know what's in them, read, either interest or money. I am looking at it from that point and so did the game designers. That's why the source books and zell was not included to supplement the core rules. As for you not wanting to accept that the Total Warfare is the current rule system in place, that's your issue, not mine. Seriously, if a person wants to have their head stuck in the sand and not acknowledge that game rules evolve and change, not my problem. For example, remember infernos in the compendium? What were they able to be used in. I know from heart due to the silliness of that rule. They were allowed only in SRM-2s and Streak-2s. Look it up if you don't believe me. It wasn't an clan rule only or IS rule only. It affected both sides evenly.

Whether you like it or not, forcing another check into the system isn't needed. BV again does wonders for that. it's not the end all, but the game can work with that due to it being a proven system from the TT. If your suggesting we encourage clan players to role play but not force them to, that's fine. I can completely agree to encourage players to go that route. But there are casual players that love the clans for their lore, don't understand how zell can work right, and want to play the game as a game.

I won't agree with you on needing more checks. I vehemently disagree with you saying that PPCs shouldn't be compared to lasers yet you want to compare medium class lasers to large class lasers. it's basically this, comparing a different weapons system to another different weapons system and saying they are the same thing. Seeing as the ISERLL has 5.6% more range, 80% of the damage, 20% more heat but it's 29% lighter and 1/3 as bulky compared to an PPC. They are the same type of weapons, energy based. You persist in this comparing medium class weapons to large class weapons so let's just start comparing them to other ENERGY based weapons while we are at it.

As for technicality, I am stating facts. The core rules are what is used in tournament play and unless specified otherwise, nothing else.

First, rules are revised to fit developments. They are not revised in a vacuum. Just because Jihad rules are newer and needed now does not mean they were needed then. The continued introduction of new technology, 'Mech designs, &c. required revisions. They are not retroactive.

Second, the BV system serves the same function in a less exciting and more restrictive fashion.

Finally, you can compare a PPC to a laser, but it does not serve the same function. Lasers are lasers. PPCs are PPCs. A medium laser being as powerful as a large laser speaks to the former being overpowered relative to the latter. A PPC should be more powerful than a laser, so pointing that out does not achieve much.

[phelancracken]

Hunson Abadeer, on 06 July 2012 - 10:09 PM, said:

First, rules are revised to fit developments. They are not revised in a vacuum. Just because Jihad rules are newer and needed now does not mean they were needed then. The continued introduction of new technology, 'Mech designs, &c. required revisions. They are not retroactive.

Second, the BV system serves the same function in a less exciting and more restrictive fashion.

Finally, you can compare a PPC to a laser, but it does not serve the same function. Lasers are lasers. PPCs are PPCs. A medium laser being as powerful as a large laser speaks to the former being overpowered relative to the latter. A PPC should be more powerful than a laser, so pointing that out does not achieve much.

First, Total Warfare is an evolution of the rules that were started from when Battletech was BattleDroids. So, sorry, it's current and it's what's used in official game events. You cannot ignore that fact. Why have multiple rule sets for everything when one rule set works across the board? Now that is just idiotic in my opinion. You want to pick and choose the rules to suit you but I cannot pick the rules that work overall and have been proven to work? Double standard my friend.

2. BV might not be as exciting, but it gets the job done. Most game designers go with the KISS method. Keep It Simple Stupid. Most generally more robust and reliable. Not to mention, simple is easier to understand for most people. I look at Star Fleet Battles for a complicated game system.

3. Why not compare Lasers to PPCs? They are energy weapons just slightly different methods of operation so by expanding your arguement to the fullest this is what you get. You wanted to just compare one thing, well now, I can run it to the fullest and show why you keep it compare one class to it's own class. The ISLL is nearly a PPC and better if that's how you want to run it. 80% of the heat, 80% of the damage, 83% of the range with 2 tons less weight and 1/3 less bulky. Better weapon by your standards. Why even have that PPC? Heck it's even got minimums to make it more handicapped so essentially, the effective range between the 2 is the same 15 hexes. The ISLL is the superior weapon using your standards of comparing different classes of weapons to each other.

Edited by phelancracken, 06 July 2012 - 10:25 PM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

why is clan tech so advanced? Simple. Warrior society that did NOT lose its technology in 4 succession wars, and had 3 centuries or so to improve the pilots AND the tech. simple as that.

[phelancracken]

True, true.

And if FASA wanted them to have same tech as the IS, read, parity, they would have. Long live Classic BattleTech.

[Hunson Abadeer]

phelancracken, on 06 July 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

First, Total Warfare is an evolution of the rules that were started from when Battletech was BattleDroids. So, sorry, it's current and it's what's used in official game events. You cannot ignore that fact. Why have multiple rule sets for everything when one rule set works across the board? Now that is just idiotic in my opinion. You want to pick and choose the rules to suit you but I cannot pick the rules that work overall and have been proven to work? Double standard my friend.

2. BV might not be as exciting, but it gets the job done. Most game designers go with the KISS method. Keep It Simple Stupid. Most generally more robust and reliable. Not to mention, simple is easier to understand for most people. I look at Star Fleet Battles for a complicated game system.

3. Why not compare Lasers to PPCs? They are energy weapons just slightly different methods of operation so by expanding your arguement to the fullest this is what you get. You wanted to just compare one thing, well now, I can run it to the fullest and show why you keep it compare one class to it's own class. The ISLL is nearly a PPC and better if that's how you want to run it. 80% of the heat, 80% of the damage, 83% of the range with 2 tons less weight and 1/3 less bulky. Better weapon by your standards. Why even have that PPC? Heck it's even got minimums to make it more handicapped so essentially, the effective range between the 2 is the same 15 hexes. The ISLL is the superior weapon using your standards of comparing different classes of weapons to each other.

1.) You are using Total Warfare because it suits you. The only reason you even think it is relevant because it declared the Clan honor code to be optional. Of course, it is set in 3069. Smoke Jaguar has been gone for a decade. The new Star League has come and gone. Nova Cat sided with the Combine. The Jihad has been going for two years. You are playing with rules meant for an entirely different environment than what is being discussed. Every rule book for any game says that it supersedes all previous books because it is the most up-to-date for what players will be using it for now.

The problem with that is that a lot of canon can actually become illegal under the new rules. Does that mean that history never happened? No, it still happened. The rules were altered to fit what was taking place at the time with the equipment that was in use at the time. If I was going to play the Fourth Succession Wars, I would pull out my old books. If I was going to play the Invasion Era, I would pull out those books. I am not going to use a non-FASA book designed with the Jihad in mind and then try to force the old stuff into that mold.

2.) That is why every attempt to turn BattleTech into a video game has been lacking. They are always shallow and inaccurate. These devs seem to be taking the exact opposite approach. Doing it right is a labor of love. Cutting corners to make it quick and easy is just for profit.

3.) Do not presume to understand my "standards" at this point because you have not understood the point of the comparison up to now.

The Clan ER Medium Laser weighs 20% as much as the Large Laser, has 100% of the range range, generates only 62.5% as much heat, does 87.5% as much damage, and takes up 50% of the space. The BV1 of the CERML is 108 to the Large Laser's 124. You get 100% of the range, only 1 point less damage, only 20% of the weight, 50% of the space, and it is actually cheaper to use under BV1. It is clearly the better weapon.

The IS Large Laser weighs 71% as much as the PPC, has 83% of the range, generates 80% as much heat, does 80% as much damage, and takes up 67% of the space. The Large Laser is supposed to be the inferior weapon, and it is inferior across the board.

[Hunson Abadeer]

As someone else has already said, the Clans could not have achieved what was intended in the story with Star League technology, so they bumped it up even more to make it work. The goal was for the Clans to steamroll over the Inner Sphere before losing. FASA created Clans that could do what was needed. Their technology allowed them to ride roughshod over the Inner Sphere, and their customs, traditions, and sheer arrogance ensured that they would ultimately lose. They did very little early on to expand on the Clans all that much. You got the Wolf book in 1991, the Falcon book in 1992, and the other invaders in 1994. In comparison, the Inner Sphere had received 4 new books by 1995 after having received 9 books from 1987-1989. FASA did not seem overly concerned with the Clans.

Think about that for a moment. FASA produced a separate book for each of the Great Houses in 1987-1988. They produced two volumes on the Fourth Succession War in 1988-1989. Mercenaries and the Periphery each received their own books in 1987-1988. The books put out about the Clans 1990-1994 had to do with the invasion and their ultimate defeat, which makes it seem like FASA was providing information about bad guys for games rather than creating new factions in earnest. For example, look at the Wolf and Falcon books. Each was roughly 80% about the invasion, forces used, and the defeat. Invading Clans followed the same basic pattern for the other invaders. It was not until 1998-1999 that they put out the Crusader and Warden books, which really delved into the Clans back in Clan space. Even since FASA closed down, the Inner Sphere has still received more publications than the Clans (field manuals, handbooks, field reports)

It seems that the Clans gained popularity after 1995 because of MechWarrior 2. Just look at the countless threads in these forums where people reference that game, post videos of its intros and endings, and so on. I would hazard a guess that most Clanners today do not realize that the invasion started in 1990 and was done by 1991. It was expanded upon to allow people to relive the fluff, but books were immediately discussing the Clans' loss on Tukayyid. I honestly do not believe that FASA really thought the Clans were going to be a big deal. If they did, why did the only produce 7 sourcebooks/field manuals on them while producing a total of 25 for the Inner Sphere?

The fact is that the Clanners seem to outnumber the Inner Sphere people these days, but that has nothing to do with FASA's intent or efforts really. Younger people that had never played BattleTech on the tabletop did play BattleTech on Sega, MechWarrior 3050 on Nintendo, and MechWarrior 2 on PC. I doubt it is a coincidence that the Clanners are pretty universally obsessed with the Timber Wolf, which just so happened to play a prominent role in those games. Those games are all non-canonical and really lacking when it comes to the actual lore of BattleTech, which helps explain why so many Clanners neither know the lore nor care to know it.

Edited by Hunson Abadeer, 07 July 2012 - 12:42 AM.

[AlexEss]

I would say that the biggest clan weakness sits in the command couch. Most of the clan mechwarriors are geneticly designed warriors, butt hat is also all they are. IS mechwarriors often comes form a great variety of backgrounds with wildly different skillsets opening up for non-lateral thinking while the clans sort of have a very one track mindset. This combined with the bushido like set of rules for engagement make them fairly easy to predict once one get to grips with them.

Their tech though is simply better, their mechs are simply better and their jocks are physically better. But the thing is that this means nothing when your society is a ritualistic one and had they not attacked the way they did the clan invasion would have ground to a halt a lot earlier.

After all they did attack a region that had barley any armed defenders and was under supplied and most importantly lacked powerful allies to assist them. the clans call it tactics... the FRR call it a cowards assault.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

phelancracken, on 06 July 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

I love how clan haters go so far to defend that they are right. Shows how shaky their side is. If you noticed, Clan players don't bash IS anywhere near as much as IS players who want that "pure" form of BT.

there may be a reason why clan players dont bash IS as much? might have something to do with the fact that there's nothing to bash. IS tech is fair and balance, every fancy toy the player takes has a downside, actual costs to bringing that kind of power to the game. Clan tech has no inherent weaknesses. Also, if you've been hearing 'overpowered' since 1990, then yes that may also be an indicator, let me reiterate: most TT games dont have people crowing about how one faction is supposed to be more powerful in every way. And the most successful ones that are still popular everywhere: Flames of War, WH40K, Warmachine - don't.

Also that note about IS purists, I'm not one of them, I'd like to see the clans brought in; but I'd like to see them brought in through a means that reflects sanity and respects the game. You can't power game with IS tech anywhere near as great as you can with Clan Tech.

phelancracken, on 06 July 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

If the basic mechanics of the game didn't work, they would have been overhauled a long time ago.

You misinterpret. The basic mechanics of CBT are sound, they're a little granular for most people's taste and can bog down in bigger fights, but these mechanics work. Weapons and Equipment are not basic mechanics, these items are built from the basic mechanics. You can't have a laser weapon without defining what a weapon is: a collection of numbers indicating range, damage, weight, size, tons. In this regard, the clan tech is not basic mechanics, its weapons and equipment. that right there is the problem, the clan weapons and equipment are broken, not the basic mechanics.

phelancracken, on 06 July 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

I always got a good laugh out of repairing right as the shells are going by. Techs wouldn't do that at all. Refill your coolant maybe, but that's all.

I absolutely agree with you on that point. In-game repair bays even in MC1/2 made me go 'huh!?' Hell I'd love to see actual cooler truck mechanics put into MWO. Oh you're laser boats running hot? well come back to the FOB, shut down and stand still while we connect you to a truck of flammable liquid oxygen, and pressurized nitrogen

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

VooDooPC, on 02 July 2012 - 11:52 PM, said:

I think I need a short Mechwarrior history lesson. I've played just about every Mechwarrior game (Everything but MechAssault 2, I even played Mechwarrior 3050 for the SNES) but I never read any novels or did any table top games.

Why is Clan technology so advanced and how would it really effect the game compared to the age difference in the current 'mechs?

Mechwarrior Online takes place just before the Clan invasion, so currently everything is Inner Sphere, which I understand. "Operation Exodus" was in 2784, the Clans were formed and the invasion was 300 years later, in 3050. I was looking at some of the 'mechs that will be in the game and the dates they were developed and I was surprised just how old some of this stuff is.

Commando - Introduced in 2463. This was over 300 years before the Exodus and add another 300 years before the invasion, this 'mech will be around 600 years old when we use it in Mechwarrior Online!

Catapult - 2561 ~500 years old ~225 years before Exodus

Hunchback - 2572 ~475 years old ~215 years before Exodus

Atlas - 2755 ~300 years old ~10 years before Exodus

Centurion - 2801 ~250 years old

Nova (Clan) - 2870 ~180 years old

Timber Wolf (Clan) - 2945 ~100 years old

Cataphract - 3025 ~50 years old

Is something like the Cataphract, which is in the game and only 50 years old, completely obsolete still to the Clan tech that is ~150 years older? How will a Cataphract compare to a Commando, which is 550 years older? Did the Inner Sphere really produce the same 'mech for the better part of a century?

I know it's a lot of questions but everyone talks about the Clan Tech being tough to balance but if we are already using antique 'mechs against something modern like the Cataphract I imagine the clan 'mechs wouldn't be much harder to balance than anything else. Also, since the Commando is a 600 year old light 'mech, will it be a horrible starter 'mech or something?

to put it in the shortest term possible.

if im not mistaken Star League didnt share there tech with the other states, after the Exodus Comstar horded any remaining advanced tech fromt he other powers. the Inner Sphere bombed the crap out of there infastructure, throwing themselves into a technological dark age. the helm memory core was only discovered in 3028 by the grey death legoin who distrubted it the knowledge.

meanwhile deep in the periphery the clans are busy studying the star league technology and the Mercury battlemech which leads to the first Omni-Mech.

note. that the starleague took a lot of the scientsits and resoruces with them, leaving the I.S with very little knowledge.

imo the clans advanced tech isnt a problem at all. its called progress, the clans did it the inner sphere did not.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Lostech

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Omnimech

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Comstar

[phelancracken]

Actually Aaron,

they come in to play the game without wanting to complain all the time that the game is unbalanced.

Hudsen, It don't matter what which rules you try and rationalize as being current. You yourself have admitted that zell isn't a core rule so that's now a non issue. I can tell you won't accept Total Warfare but I will have the last laugh if you go to a con and try and use BMRr or Compendium rules in that official tournament. That is a fact, they use the current rules at official events, aka Total Warfare. Those rules are meant to cover Jihad all the way back to the beginning of mech combat. Meaning, and I do mean this, supercede all rules and scenario packs published before that. If it was meant for just a specific period of time the rule book would have said that.

Page 4 of the Battletech compendium, "This rule set takes precedence over any previous publication, including the Battletech Manual."
Page 5 of the BMRr says the same thing. It's just like any other game system. The newest edition of a core rule book supercedes the previous editions unless it says differently.

Aaron, You want the clans to come in but you say in nearly the same breath they are broken. I can mention a few IS experimental techs that are broken such as the MPW and the ELRM systems. The clans improved on the Star League tech to a point that yes, it's more powerful, but if your not practicing total war for centuries, it very possible to improve on it. Not to mention, the IS tech is HOW old technologically? It was around during the Age of War and with a few hundred years to work on it mostly quietly the clans improved the Star League tech they NEVER lost from bombing themselves into the stone age to better tech. However, at 3050, no weapons tech is brand new tech. Just refined. The Omni tech might be considered new, but I seem to remember that some star league tech from IIRC the (Mercury) mech was modular weapons. That's right, a few Star League mechs started to use modular weapons. To me, that's the true beginning of omni tech. Not to mention, I wanna be Clan wolverine and use nukes, Every game has an underdog in some way. 40k, everything. Thanks Kodiak for the info.

As for the lore, again, if your monetarily challenged, most players are going to get what they need to play the game first. Rules, maps, figures then source books if they can get the money together. As for source books, FASA did what FASA did. I know that when the clans came out books were coming out like gangbusters.

I just love it when people want to try and make this game like every other game. Why? It's not 40k, or any other game. It's CBT. If you don't like how the clans are, then don't fight them. I can bet there is going to be a lot of matches that are only IS versus IS. People who don't want to play clans. That's their choice to play the game. I respect it and honestly, you have to respect everyone elses.

Edited by phelancracken, 07 July 2012 - 08:21 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

phelancracken, on 06 July 2012 - 08:16 PM, said:

LOL!

You know, play a official game that's run at a convention for TT battletech. What ruleset is used? It's Total Warfare. You have lost that arguement. You want the clans balanced by something that isn't needed. if it was meant to be a core rule, it would have been included in a core rule set. What's the first thing a person buys if they like the game and intend to keep playing? Most of the time it's the rules. I don't care how you try and justify it, but they have had it balanced for 22 years. Adding an element that isn't in the core rules is just not a good thing forcing it just because you want it is even worse.
.....
.....

4. Then the compendium rules are in full force, NO ZELL!! That was the rule set in force when the clans came out. Show me where it is in the compendium. That's right, you admitted it's not there. Look, it's an optional rule. Trying to make it a mandatory rule is going to keep you in this state. I won't back down, your call. You want the clans checked even more than they are due to your thoughts if they never had been introduced you wouldn't have shed a tear. I know that's your opinion, that's fine. But, you don't have the right to force others to play your game if they want to play the game their way. The current TT rules cover everything including 3025 tech. So, trying to ignore that ruleset is fine in your personal games. Offical games, forget it.

5. Typical purist is going about saying that I am looking for a loophole when I am going by the rules of the game. If they wanted Zell as a true core rule, they would have INCLUDED them in the main core rules. FASA did not waste their time, it made them money, which is what a business whats to do. Make as much money from a product as possible. Be it a game system or something else. How are the paperback books modify the game rules? Was that a waste of money then by FASA? No, it still made them money.

LOL! I never said I thought my friend was playing before you. I said he was demoing in 1984. Get it right. I am talking from experience by stating I was playing the game in 1990. If that's nerdy, okay so be it. What's your point? I love the game.

Sounds like you love only PART of the game. You do realize that until now, I do not believe you had brought up tournament play? And that tournament play is only a small part for the TT game, usually happening at conventions whereas a majority of the TT game play are done at someone's place with a GM? As for tournament play, have you looked at some of the configurations used? And have you not played in a tournament where it was IS 3025 tech vs Clan tech?

Off subject, sorta, you should have someone read your posts and get their opinion of how you are coming across. I believe that is one of the primary reasons of why the moderator poked his head in here.

Back to things. As for tournaments, not all tournaments are the same. And I have been in only a few where it was a FFA or teams were selected at random and they used the mechs and configurations that was brought in, whereas many others followed game scenarios. If you have not had that experience then, imho, you have been missing out on parts of the overall game.

Or have you been involved in such games and felt you had one hand tied behind your back and lost horribly? (shrugs)

Have fun!!