407 replies to this topic

[White Bear 84]

Bulletsponge0, on 11 May 2015 - 02:35 PM, said:

no..its because after the reset, the clans have been getting pushed out of the IS

Because a tonne of mercs left the clans after the event. PGI must pay attention to merc dynamics - course people switch to clans to play Tukayyid..

Right now imo there is too much too-ing and fro-ing with merc units.

[Threat Doc]

Freebrewer Bmore, on 12 May 2015 - 07:19 AM, said:

Static valuation is the problem, though, whether you're talking in terms of tonnage or of BV. We need a dynamic system that continually adjusts itself against the OP flavor of the month, because there will be an OP flavor of the month regardless of how well you try to devise BV, or tonnage allocations, or quirk/weapon balances, or whatever.

Static valuation is not the problem with Battle Value, any more than Battle Value has anything to do with controlling flavor of the month. I'm talking about putting 'Mechs together using static component values so you can have the same valuation across ALL 'Mechs. A Hunchback mounting 6 Medium Lasers -with the current hardpoint system of the game- would have the same valuation from those 6 Medium Lasers as any other 'Mech carrying them. That's the way it should be. Flavor of the month is always going to be a problem, and that problem should not be fixable through Battle Value. If some jerk designs their 'Mech to be meta, then meta values are what they are going to get from them. The POINT of Battle Value is that it not only accounts for the pilot, it also accounts for the strength of the machine in combat. Will you have machines that are fairly powerful but have a low BV? Yes. I'm not saying you won't have builds that are fairly light on BV and fairly powerful; what I am saying is that BV will allow the use of actual buckets for matching teams based on the build values you get in the MechLab, as coupled with the MechWarrior's Piloting and Gunnery Skill. Battle Value is not meant to help flavor of the week, it is designed to make it more likely to have even buckets in all game types, using a single value, as opposed to using Pilot Elo's -which none of us can be made aware of, for whatever reason-, followed by age of a MechWarrior or group in the matchmaker, followed by weight class mixtures, and finally by tonnage matching, which then have these "valves" open up the longer the matchmaker is searching.

This allows for many matches that are fairly even, but it allows for more matches that are lopsided. With BV bucket matching, the only number you would need, teams can be matched up even faster, more evenly, etc. Remove all of the quirks from 'Mechs, let them be as they are, put Battle Value on them IN THE MECHLAB, use a multiplier to that Battle Value based on a game-determined Piloting and Gunnery Skill IN THE MECHLAB, right as the 'Mech is saved and, then, when the pilot hits Play, that value for that 'Mech and that pilot are dumped straight into the bucket with the rest, the matchmaker works to level the numbers, and it doesn't have to be 12 vs. 12, within 5% of each other's number, and away we go!!!

I don't care, at this point, about handling monster of the week builds, as I have been learning to ignore those types of builds, and beating them, anyway. A 'Mech is a 'Mech, it has tonnage, critical slots, and PGI added hardpoints for weapon limitations; 'Mechs have to be built within the rules, and all of the individual values of the 'Mech are added together to make the whole.

Would you have Jesse Owens and Jackie Joyner-Kersey, separated into the parts of them that make them who they are, and those parts valued individually and dynamically, to compare them? No, JJKs muscle strength, endurance, bone density, heart health, and many other factors would be placed each on the same scale as the corresponding parts on Owens. It's got to be the same with 'Mechs to be fair. After all, why would a Large Laser mounted on a Locust behave any differently than one on a Wolverine? It's the very same weapon, it should have the very same stats, period.

[Twilight Fenrir]

White Bear 84, on 12 May 2015 - 06:48 PM, said:

Because a tonne of mercs left the clans after the event. PGI must pay attention to merc dynamics - course people switch to clans to play Tukayyid..

Right now imo there is too much too-ing and fro-ing with merc units.

Soon as Wave III hits... I'm hopping over to the Clans... Can't wait to swing my Ebon Jaguar around >:3

[CrushLibs]

We are comparing the Warhawk to the stalker due to size.

The TW with 4 LPL can only take 20 DHS vs 28 for the warhawk thus the TW runs even hotter and has less armor.

So comparing the stalker to the TW is not really doable.

[White Bear 84]

Twilight Fenrir, on 12 May 2015 - 07:10 PM, said:

Soon as Wave III hits... I'm hopping over to the Clans... Can't wait to swing my Ebon Jaguar around >:3

Mmmm Ebon..

[Void Angel]

CrushLibs, on 12 May 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fc18ce10e999aeb

Heat Generation 9.15

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5028a0f2434393a

Heat Generation 9.88 - 20% = 7.904

So 9.15 = 7.904 ???? don't think so TIM

/fail. Click on the weaponlab in the tool you just linked, on the builds you posted. Now notice the times to overheat. Adjust for quirks. Better yet, just look at sustained dps. Smack yourself on the forehead. Repeat as needed.

Both of these 'mechs are fairly balanced against each other for what they're trying to do. The Stalker's time to overheat is about 19 seconds, compared to the Warhawk's 22, but the Warhawk's weapon cycle is longer. Their expected DPS are similar, thought the Warhawk still has more alpha flexibility and speed v. the Stalker's extremely high weapon mounts and better hitboxes from the front. This is not the Clan "meta" being unable to match the Inner Sphere - rather, it looks a lot like the claim you were correcting.

You even go on to note that they're very close in the testing grounds. Since you're comparing Clan weaknesses to Inner Sphere strengths, that's not a very convincing argument anyway, even if I'm no longer clear whether you're arguing that the two factions are or are not balanced. Clans and Inner Sphere are pretty balanced, but their respective metas do not match up very well.

Edited by Void Angel, 12 May 2015 - 09:27 PM.

[CTsai]

DarkExar, on 11 May 2015 - 03:27 PM, said:

....Following their loss to the Clans in the First Battle of Tukayyid,
... meeting the Second Clan Invasion with greater strength and ferocity than ever....
... such gains come at a cost...
....already being stressed by extended Clan occupation...
....even greater turmoil in the wake of immense losses experienced at the Battle of Tukayyid....
....Inner Sphere forces have stretched their supply lines too thin....


All above epic bullcrap story gives 4% tonnage reduction?? 4%????
FFS PGI if you want to "ballance" (lol?) something please kindly don't bother to waste time on bleach storytelling.
At least now I know - the victory was worth exactly 10 tonnes!!!!!!!!

EDIT: sorry, I forgot to say - thats totally pathetic!

You know what else is pathetic?
4% Quirks on clan omnipods.

Die, Clanner.

[Novawrecker]

Kin3ticX, on 11 May 2015 - 02:52 PM, said:

I am perplexed

What's perplexing about it? PGI has made it clear, ye who whines the most, gets results from PGI. I thought this was pretty cut 'n' dry since first nerf IS received vs. clanners

[Túatha Dé Danann]

Now give me a 25 ton Commando instead of a Raven that isn't useless and I may forgive you.
I demand:
- ECM
- Engine Cap at least 225
- 5 Laser Hardpoints (2LA, 2RA, 1 Head)
- Quirks for (Medium) Laser Range and (Medium) Laser Heat Reduction
- Quirks for armor strength on LT, RT and legs

(Hey, someone said whining helps, right? )

[Pragr]

InnerSphereNews, on 11 May 2015 - 02:25 PM, said:

Greetings MechWarriors,



Following their loss to the Clans in the First Battle of Tukayyid, Inner Sphere forces have been meeting the Second Clan Invasion with greater strength and ferocity than ever.



Many territories have been won by the Inner Sphere forces since the borders were reset at the end of the battle, and such gains come at a cost: Inner Sphere supply lines and infrastructure in the outer territories, already being stressed by extended Clan occupation, have experienced even greater turmoil in the wake of immense losses experienced at the Battle of Tukayyid.
In their noble efforts to prevent such a defeat again, the Inner Sphere forces have stretched their supply lines too thin.



Effective from 3PM PDT today, Inner Sphere DropDeck tonnage limits have been reduced from 250 tonnes to 240 tonnes.

I have no idea who composed this message, but it makes me laugh. Extrapolating these statements to their extreme it means that when clanners win the vast majority of CW battles, the IS tonnage would be limited to 0 tons. Maybe it is the direction you want to point the CW. I doubt however.

As I wrote before I don't consider the 10 tons decrease as a big deal. But please, next time try to think at least 1 minute before you post/make some logical nonsense like this one. With all respect and no offence.

[Twilight Fenrir]

Pragr, on 13 May 2015 - 05:28 AM, said:

I have no idea who composed this message, but it makes me laugh. Extrapolating these statements to their extreme it means that when clanners win the vast majority of CW battles, the IS tonnage would be limited to 0 tons. Maybe it is the direction you want to point the CW. I doubt however.

How do you figure that? O.o If anything, as the clans took over the majority of the map, their tonnage would drop, or the IS would increase...

It's about spreading yourself too thin. If you have 1000 mechs, and hold 100 worlds, that's 10 mechs to a world for garrison... You keep conquering, and make it 125 worlds, then you only have 8 mechs for garrison. The available tonnage on any given world drops.

Ultimately, of course, it's just blanketing a balance change with a story, which I like, actually. And it's quite a reasonable one.

[Gaius Marcus]

Twilight Fenrir, on 13 May 2015 - 05:44 AM, said:

Ultimately, of course, it's just blanketing a balance change with a story, which I like, actually. And it's quite a reasonable one.

And its not like those 10 tons made anything like a difference anyway.

[Dawnstealer]

Quintus Verus, on 11 May 2015 - 02:39 PM, said:

I think its more CW exhaustion after that intense week of Tukayyid. Also Kurita is not the whipping boy it was at start of 1st beta.

And Steiner FINALLY got organized. And Rasalhague learned how to fight.

Trust me, Marik will get bored, Davion will catch up to the rest of us, and the borders will get more mutable.

[Tyras]

Twilight Fenrir, on 13 May 2015 - 05:44 AM, said:

How do you figure that? O.o If anything, as the clans took over the majority of the map, their tonnage would drop, or the IS would increase...

It's about spreading yourself too thin. If you have 1000 mechs, and hold 100 worlds, that's 10 mechs to a world for garrison... You keep conquering, and make it 125 worlds, then you only have 8 mechs for garrison. The available tonnage on any given world drops.

Ultimately, of course, it's just blanketing a balance change with a story, which I like, actually. And it's quite a reasonable one.

Given that the IS and Clan damage done numbers had a rough parity with the IS 250 ton limit according to PGI's stats, how does removing 10 tons help keep things balanced. The current map situation has nothing to do with IS tonnage, and everything to do with active population numbers.

The organizations that are most active in CW have moved to the IS and have continued to play CW where as the loyalist Clan units have either taken a breather after the Tukayyid event or are too few in numbers to mount a proper defense against an active and organized opposition. Had the merc units that were clans during the event remained affiliated with the clans the map would look a lot different.

That PGI made this decision with full knowledge of the statistics from the Prove Your Allegiance and Tukayyid events, surely knowing that the change wouldn't affect the problem with the Clans getting pushed back, and with only a week's worth of battles after the map reset really reflects poorly on them. It hands the IS players a nerf after telling them that the Clans won the majority percentage of their battles, and doesn't fix the issue of the clans losing planets in slack CW periods. It's not very well thought out.

[CrushLibs]

Void Angel, on 12 May 2015 - 09:01 PM, said:

/fail. Click on the weaponlab in the tool you just linked, on the builds you posted. Now notice the times to overheat. Adjust for quirks. Better yet, just look at sustained dps. Smack yourself on the forehead. Repeat as needed.

Both of these 'mechs are fairly balanced against each other for what they're trying to do. The Stalker's time to overheat is about 19 seconds, compared to the Warhawk's 22, but the Warhawk's weapon cycle is longer. Their expected DPS are similar, thought the Warhawk still has more alpha flexibility and speed v. the Stalker's extremely high weapon mounts and better hitboxes from the front. This is not the Clan "meta" being unable to match the Inner Sphere - rather, it looks a lot like the claim you were correcting.

You even go on to note that they're very close in the testing grounds. Since you're comparing Clan weaknesses to Inner Sphere strengths, that's not a very convincing argument anyway, even if I'm no longer clear whether you're arguing that the two factions are or are not balanced. Clans and Inner Sphere are pretty balanced, but their respective metas do not match up very well.

Clan is OP , clan has better weapons , whine whine whine whine.

I am showing from a data driven , neutral standpoint the differences vs people's unfounded opinions. The 4N has very few quirks compared to other IS mechs. Only a 20% heat reduction was able to take an IS mech with more heat generated and less heatsinks and basically even out or surpass the clan mech.

Now look quirks over as a whole -- lots of IS mechs are getting quirks that bump internal hit points by ALOT a 65 ton TDR has more internals on its side torso than a 100 ton DWF or the AWS which adds 40% more CT and 1/3rd more side torso hit points.
Locust gets a 50% armor buff putting it on par with a raven. Dragon 1N machine gun AC-5s , and more over quirked IS mechs with massive 50% cool downs and 30% reduction in duration or super hit points and armor buffs.

Clan is OP ?? I think not. Small quirks make huge changes and PGI went too far on many mechs and the entire quirk system needs to be looked at and revamped and "balanced"

[Thelamon]

Reducing the IS dropdecks is hardly the solution to the strategic (population) problems the clanners currently face.
And it is a big slap in the face of all the IS Players as well.

1. Tukayid and the pre-event CW clearly showed that the 10 ton upgrade for IS decks made for more balanced matches.
And even with ten more IS tons the Clanners won the Event!
The tonnage has nothing to do with the strategic side in CW, it merely makes for a more balanced gameplay on the level of the individual battle/ CW match and it has proven its usefullness.

2. Currently CW has a vey low population across te board and the Clanners (with a lower player base than IS) are getting pushed back due to inactivity.

- One quick way to get the clanners back on track is certainly to offer juicy MERC contracts for significant time periods.

- The other way to get some more "Perma-Clanners" would be to offersome kind of equipment support for newer Players who simply can't afford a decent Clan drop-deck.

Edited by Thelamon, 14 May 2015 - 09:47 AM.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

CrushLibs, on 13 May 2015 - 06:46 AM, said:

Clan is OP , clan has better weapons , whine whine whine whine.

I am showing from a data driven , neutral standpoint the differences vs people's unfounded opinions. The 4N has very few quirks compared to other IS mechs. Only a 20% heat reduction was able to take an IS mech with more heat generated and less heatsinks and basically even out or surpass the clan mech.

Now look quirks over as a whole -- lots of IS mechs are getting quirks that bump internal hit points by ALOT a 65 ton TDR has more internals on its side torso than a 100 ton DWF or the AWS which adds 40% more CT and 1/3rd more side torso hit points.
Locust gets a 50% armor buff putting it on par with a raven. Dragon 1N machine gun AC-5s , and more over quirked IS mechs with massive 50% cool downs and 30% reduction in duration or super hit points and armor buffs.

Clan is OP ?? I think not. Small quirks make huge changes and PGI went too far on many mechs and the entire quirk system needs to be looked at and revamped and "balanced"

Neutral, hmm?

A mechs primary values are:
- Speed
- Armor
- Firpower (DPS, sustained DPS and Alpha)
- Range
- Weapon mounts
- Additional equipment slots (ECM, Jump Jets)

If I may, I would take a Hellbringer over a Stalker 4N any day. It runs 90 kph instead of 62, it has ECM, can mount a shitload of Double heatsinks and with 7 Medium lasers, it has not only a similar range, but also a higher alpha and dps, while having a smaller cross-section.

I would take the Stormcrow over a Thunderbolt, cause it has more range, speed and is similar tanky.

You can take a Madcat over ANY IS chassis, you could even take a Brawl-Nova into the field and watch everything go to hell with 12 Small lasers if your team is capable of such a feat. And even the Kit-Fox got enough punch to wreck an IS hevy if piloted in the right hand.

I'll take Clan mechs any day over IS mechs. So, if you think, everything is nice and fine now, why not opening the Clan chassis for IS, heh? If IS is so OP for you, we would stick with the IS chassis, right?

Yes? No?

What about: Its about teamplay and not about the mechs!
If I see 12 PUGs mounting all LRMs on their machines and getting shot into oblivion, because not a single one has the balls to expose himself to create a frontline, because every single one is a second-line mech, what do you think happens when an organized team shows up? Right, more lube!

Cause and effect.

[Banditman]

CW needs population balancing in place. Without penalties and bonuses that encourage population balance, CW will remain a nightmare.

And no, the contract bonuses were not nearly enough incentive to encourage population balance, and there have never been any penalties in place.

[CrushLibs]

In solo matches I used to take my DWF now I take a Jegger or FS instead.

When I did IS CW I took stalkers since I like stalkers but with all the quirks its makes even more sense to take IS.

[Gagis]

I'd say that population does not even need to be balanced if switching factions is not as advantageous as it is now. The side with the largest army and/or the best and/or most coordinated fighters SHOULD win. Skill, coordination and the number of friends at your side are the kind of advantages that good games tend to encourage rather than discourage.

Biggest problem probably is that there are too many factions for too few players.