195 replies to this topic

[Strum Wealh]

CyclonerM, on 20 May 2015 - 11:32 AM, said:

Eureka! I remembered another interesting Clan woman! Can anyone remember the name of that Steel Viper warrior who got disgraced and found herself fighting in the clandestine arena 'Mech fights on Galatea? I do not even remember which book this was lol.

I recall a battle she was fighting with an old Shadow Hawk, which only nearly won..

I enjoyed that story because i like when Clansmen have to immerse themselves in the IS society, especially in the lower kinds of scum

MechWarrior Dawn (later Dawn Moffat), who was featured in the novel Star Lord.

[Faith McCarron]

Wow, I have never read that novel. Not sure how I missed it in the time line of things, but even the cover doesn't ring a bell when I look it up. I will have to look into that one.

[CyclonerM]

Strum Wealh, on 20 May 2015 - 11:49 AM, said:

MechWarrior Dawn (later Dawn Moffat), who was featured in the novel Star Lord.

Bingo! I remember it because, if i am not wrong, that is one of the few novels about the FWL .. And this could open a whole another issue.. But not today

[Naglinator]

Mazzyplz, on 16 May 2015 - 02:38 PM, said:

but there are characters even in the cartoon like natalya

she is a fierce warrior who didn't actually ever lose to the enemy forces in the show, strong as a bull and real smart and honorable as well.
you're deliberately not counting her as a smart or strong female because she's not part of the good guys?? (although she is at one point)

you won't get close to a female strong and righteous lead because the writers back there and probably scifi fantasy writers even now are male and as such they are more comfortable writing male roles as main character, just the way it works in the real world.

if there were more females writing battletech fiction and such i am sure the ratio would be more even

that's your incredibly simple explanation and so i can say that yes, you are being a feminist boogieman looking for bias when in fact that's just the way things play out

Good guys? That's a matter of opinions. Also, that show is inner sphere propaganda and should not be used as an example.

[SnagaDance]

Faith McCarron, on 20 May 2015 - 12:05 PM, said:

Wow, I have never read that novel. Not sure how I missed it in the time line of things, but even the cover doesn't ring a bell when I look it up. I will have to look into that one.

Don't feel bad, that novel is among the worst, I actually prefer the Black Thorn books over that one....

[SnagaDance]

Bill Bullet, on 20 May 2015 - 06:45 AM, said:

See I was a fan of Cassie in the first book she was featured in, "Close Quarters" where her life's circumstances had made her a total sociopath, but by opening up to the Caballero's she regained her lost humanity. The scene wherein she finally breaks down and cries was great she was a good character with a good arc....but then in the next couple of books she was in I feel the author overdid it and almost every single thing seemed to set her off. She reacted to almost everything by either crying or forcing back tears, kinda ruined the character for me. Joanna is awesome and will always be awesome, in fact I'm pretty sure she was first character people held up as an ideal female lead.

Keep in mind that Cassie completely shut out her own feelings since early childhood, through here teenage years and early adulthood. Even the Guru whom she respected so much is described by her as using her as a 'vessel to pour his art in, to transfer that knowledge before his death'.
I actually like how she isn't all of a sudden feeling completely happy and ok after a single moment that made her start changing her personality. Something like that is a journey, with the road often switching back while travelling up that steep mountain. I find it far more believable than characters who are able to change at the drop of a hat without ever looking back.

As for Joanna.......are you serious??? She's bitter, mean spirited and has a penchant for taking out her personal frustration on others through violence. I would hardly call her an ideal female lead. She is awesome in her own way sure, but far from ideal in about every way (which is one of the things that makes her an interesting character, Mary Sues are boooooring).

[Faith McCarron]

I agree with you on Cassie, Snaga. To think of what Cassie went through and repressed for so long, even a breakthrough moment is not going to yield a sudden change. Progress is going to be gradual, and that is realistic.

As for Joanna, maybe it's me, but my biggest turn-off with her was that I always saw her as a bit of a creeper. When she was training the Pryde sibko in the first book of the Falcon trilogy, she was already past her peak years as a clan warrior, which was part of why she was so bitter. That puts her at that point at what, her 30's? Yet she is going around sleeping with the cadets, which is creepy in the whole teacher-student way for starters, but then when you factor in, how old was Aidan and his sibkin at the time? 16? 14? Creeper! I always had a hard time getting past that with her.

[ShinobiHunter]

Sparks Murphey, on 19 May 2015 - 08:10 PM, said:

Well, one of the things about forums is they are often used for discussing things, rather than changing things. I know it's a subtle distinction, as discussion does often lead to change, and certainly if you looked at any of the whining going on in the patch feedback and general discussion threads you'd think that posting a thread is a mandate for immediate change. Despite that, no. This is a thread about where you can find strong female characters in the BT universe, or if you feel you can't, why that might be.

So far, the thread has discovered quite a number of female characters who have been argued to be strong. Strum Wealh's post, immediately preceding yours, notes 6 canon female BattleTech characters who have their own hero 'Mechs in MWO, and a seventh who isn't canon but also has a hero 'Mech.

I hope that clears things up for you.

Are you crazy? This is a public forum on the internet. Everything is flame wars and QQ and trolling.

In all seriousness, this is an interesting discussion. Thanks to both of you for answering

[Peiper]

Francesca Jenkins!!! How can I forget?? Why? Because she doesn't pilot a mech, isn't a mechwarrior's love interest, isn't a politician... She is a spy, and she's a friggin bad ass! She is also instrumental in Katrina Steiner's downfall. She recurs throughout the FedCom civil war storyline. Check her out, yo!

Also, nice to see this thread back on track!

[SnagaDance]

Faith McCarron, on 20 May 2015 - 01:39 PM, said:

As for Joanna, maybe it's me, but my biggest turn-off with her was that I always saw her as a bit of a creeper. When she was training the Pryde sibko in the first book of the Falcon trilogy, she was already past her peak years as a clan warrior, which was part of why she was so bitter. That puts her at that point at what, her 30's? Yet she is going around sleeping with the cadets, which is creepy in the whole teacher-student way for starters, but then when you factor in, how old was Aidan and his sibkin at the time? 16? 14? Creeper! I always had a hard time getting past that with her.

Huh. Now that you mention that part, I guess I never looked at it in that way. Maybe it was because all sibko members are already full on dedicated to doing 'adult' things (and with this I mainly mean serious military training, I consider the sex to be secondary) I never thought about the age gap as much.

It's been years since I read those books though, I've never considered Robert Thurston to be a very engaging writer, even when he's really the only one giving a more detailed look inside Clan society, so I really should dig those out again.

IIRC, doesn't Joanna use it more like a tool of punishment (maybe along with some personal gratification)? Doesn't really turn down the creepiness-level but it adds to the alien-like nature of Clan warriors and their views on sex.

I looked it up on Sarna btw and while the Jade Phoenix books are horrible interms of dates and ages Joanna is stated to be transferred to Glory station (after having helped Aidan being installed as a Freebrith warrior) att he age of 28. So not in her 30's but still a significant age gap.

[Naglinator]

Faith McCarron, on 20 May 2015 - 01:39 PM, said:

I agree with you on Cassie, Snaga. To think of what Cassie went through and repressed for so long, even a breakthrough moment is not going to yield a sudden change. Progress is going to be gradual, and that is realistic.

As for Joanna, maybe it's me, but my biggest turn-off with her was that I always saw her as a bit of a creeper. When she was training the Pryde sibko in the first book of the Falcon trilogy, she was already past her peak years as a clan warrior, which was part of why she was so bitter. That puts her at that point at what, her 30's? Yet she is going around sleeping with the cadets, which is creepy in the whole teacher-student way for starters, but then when you factor in, how old was Aidan and his sibkin at the time? 16? 14? Creeper! I always had a hard time getting past that with her.

People used to get married at 14 all the time. Your values are no better then anyone else.

[Joshua McEvedy]

Quote

Now, Sarah McEvedy, there is one example of a character who has tremendous potential for some authentic in-depth exploration. There is so much to her story that could be fleshed out in a way that could make her an actual heroic protagonist, it is something I would like to see.

Blaine Lee Pardoe did just that in his 'Betrayal of Ideals' series published over at Battlecorps. I highly recommend them.

http://www.sarna.net...rayal_of_Ideals

http://shop.catalyst...?productid=1787

The Historical: Operation Klondike sourcebook also provides some great insight into McEvedy and her relationships with both Nicholas and Andery Kerensky.

http://www.sarna.net...i/Sarah_McEvedy



Sarah McEvedy is probably my favorite character in the MechWarrior universe, so hence my MWO name.

And don't forget Trish Ebon, who led the former Wolverines/Star League-in-Exile members back to the Inner Sphere following the disastrous battle of Barbados and raided the Draconis Combines as the "Minnesota Tribe."

Edited by Joshua McEvedy, 21 May 2015 - 09:12 AM.

[Faith McCarron]

Naglinator, on 21 May 2015 - 09:06 AM, said:

People used to get married at 14 all the time. Your values are no better then anyone else.

People used to do all kinds of stuff. Treat women as property, own slaves, commit ******. Doesn't make it any less weird or wrong today.

[Naglinator]

Faith McCarron, on 22 May 2015 - 11:55 PM, said:

People used to do all kinds of stuff. Treat women as property, own slaves, commit ******. Doesn't make it any less weird or wrong today.

Exactly. Today. Our society. Still putting your morals onto others.

[Faith McCarron]

Naglinator, on 23 May 2015 - 05:06 AM, said:

Exactly. Today. Our society. Still putting your morals onto others.

And the problem with that is...???

[Naglinator]

Faith McCarron, on 23 May 2015 - 05:19 AM, said:

And the problem with that is...???

Ughh, alright i give trying to explain stuff to you. Last answer is... THE CLANS don't have a problem with their lifestyle, YOU do. Their ways our normal to them and YOUR ways are alien to them. Since morality is relative, they AREN'T wrong with the way they are according to their ways. I wont be reading this post anymore so don't bother with a rebuttal.

[Faith McCarron]

Yeah I see what you did there, that's cute.

If you want to go all relativist, knock yourself out, but don't call me out for pointing out a violation what we generally define as acceptable. I very much doubt you are 100% relativist, so where is the line for you?

[Rush Maguin]

Naglinator, you're being more inflammatory than helpful. Faith made a perfectly good point and you're flat out attacking her for it because it doesn't fit -your- values. How are you any better than what you're claiming she is? Way to defeat yourself.

This has been an amazing thread, excepting the troll weigh ins. Perhaps the mission now is to lead by example and furnish lady characters of our own in BT to break the stereotypes. It is certainly time. I'm about to start running a 3145 era tabletop and thanks to this thread, I changed the descendant of the classic era character I've had since '91 into a great granddaughter. We'll see how my table reacts.

[Peiper]

3145 could be interesting, as you basically have the opportunity to carve out your own empire from the ruins of the Inner Sphere. I like the slow power creep in a campaign, though, and so starting say in 3025 and moving forward, you get to play through the last classic war (4th Succession War) and move forward, adding experimental lostech as it comes out, then fighting tooth and nail to get the drop on some clan tech and so on. And so many factions with flushed out characters. Play as a Wolfs Dragoons attachment and fight for every house. Or maybe steal some stuff from the Dragoons secret supply base of ships and clan mechs and go pirating everywhere!

[Rush Maguin]

Heh. I'm mainly doing 3145 because the rolling storyline captivated me when I was my nephew's age (especially the Clan Invasion). Since I'm introducing him to BT in this new campaign, I wanted him to see a rolling storyline in action, and how he could use it in games he runs with his friends to top effect. I didn't want him to do an era he could look up on the net and see the ending to.

But I'm not here to hijack Faith's thread. I'll say no more about it here. Other than I look forward to running a cool, tough as nails lady hero in her great grandfather's Marauder II.