195 replies to this topic

[Kenyon Burguess]

Faith McCarron, on 15 May 2015 - 04:29 AM, said:

.... All I'm saying is that it might be nice to have a few more that I can relate to or connect with in a different way.

ive been reading your work Faith, you might have to be the one to do it for future BT-tech fans. if your taking requests, I'd love to see more of Naomi Centrella and her family in a much stronger, better light. http://www.sarna.net...Naomi_Centrella Magistracy of Canopus was my house of choice in MWO but due to its small size, it didn't make the cut and I ended up in Marik

[latinisator]

Sarah McEvedy anyone? Or Myndo Waterly?
Both did what they thought was best, both had to face the consequences of their deeds.

Cassie Suthorn? Also quite an impressive character, if mind serves correctly.

Also, I think it is right to remeber who the audience was for the novels. Remember Grayson Carlyles girlfriend Mara on Trell giving head? This and "stompy robots shooting each other to bits". Definitely not world literature, but "satisfying" back in the day.

[Faith McCarron]

latinisator, on 15 May 2015 - 04:51 AM, said:

Sarah McEvedy anyone? Or Myndo Waterly?
Both did what they thought was best, both had to face the consequences of their deeds.

Myndo Waterly was a narcissist and a sociopath, making her hard to really relate to, in much the same vein as Katherine Steiner-Davion.

Now, Sarah McEvedy, there is one example of a character who has tremendous potential for some authentic in-depth exploration. There is so much to her story that could be fleshed out in a way that could make her an actual heroic protagonist, it is something I would like to see.

Geist Null, on 15 May 2015 - 04:50 AM, said:

ive been reading your work Faith, you might have to be the one to do it for future BT-tech fans. if your taking requests, I'd love to see more of Naomi Centrella and her family in a much stronger, better light. http://www.sarna.net...Naomi_Centrella Magistracy of Canopus was my house of choice in MWO but due to its small size, it didn't make the cut and I ended up in Marik

I try to avoid canon characters and stick to ones of my own creation, just because it gives actual freedom to authentically explore them. Yes, there is a "Faith McCarron" in canon, but I make sure to differentiate my character from the MAC one, they are distinctly different and unrelated characters who happen to share a name, mostly because I saw the name and was like "wow, that's badass" and it's pretty close to mine IRL, so I ran with it in RPing years ago.

[Rush Maguin]

I agree with Faith. There seems to be a lackluster portrayal of women in the BT universe, and the clichés she mentions rub salt in the wound. As for gender issues being a side thing and the violence is more important, I couldn't disagree more. I disagree quite passionately. This is a game of humanity at war, not just men. There are heroes of all kinds. True, we can argue that our characters fill the gap of the new up and coming legends, but not everybody sees our characters. I have lady friends who have been turned off to Battletech because of how the Black Widow was portrayed, or the lack of deep, compelling women characters who aren't obsessive over The Perfect Man. I would think it's high time we saw a lady character who was a hero to the bone, with fears, complexities, triumphs and failures to consider. Not another female MechWarrior who is successful because she's hyperviolent and deeply psychotic.

[Faith McCarron]

I can see that, but minor characters are still...minor. They're great for the depth that they add in totality to the universe, but what I would like to see is that depth on the individual character level.

As for Victor, he is a very flawed character. His weakness is his lack of political acumen and ability to sometimes see the big picture. He is forever failing to live up to the accomplishments of his father. If anything, the God-like character was Hanse Davion, to the point that he virtually HAD to be killed off with the coming of the Clans.

And I'm not saying there is something inherently wrong with having a weak female lead character, if it serves the story. Everyone has their weaknesses. My problem is when that becomes the norm and we don't see much outside of that box.

I totally get what you're saying with the minor characters thing though. I love them too. And they provide a rich playground to explore in. My point is that it would be nice to just once or twice not have to go to that level to find a female character.

[Nightmare1]

Faith McCarron, on 15 May 2015 - 04:09 AM, said:

Oddly enough, as a woman, I care. It's much more than stompy robots blowing each other to pieces. What sets it apart from a chinsy video game shooter universe is it's depth of history, characters, politics, and so forth. For me, the fact that it's a giant space drama is far more appealing than just 'stompy robots pew pew', and given that I find that aspect to be intriguing, I'd also like if it were more diverse and representative.

It was written by a bunch of fanboys. If you're looking for a deep story or diversity, you're looking in the wrong place when it comes to BT. It was written by a bunch of guys, for a bunch of guys. I don't think they were worried too much about diversity when they wrote it, and, to be honest, it's not that big a deal. Either you enjoy the series and make allowances for its imperfections, or you get hung up on trivial issues and don't. It's that simple.

Personally speaking, I never really pay much attention to the "diversity" of a book when I read it. That's not the point of the book; the point is to entertain or convey a message. If you get distracted by whether or not it has a perfect ratio of people types, then you're not going to get anything out of the book. I'd say that you're also a hand-wringer, lol.

[Faith McCarron]

You completely miss the point. It isn't about perfect ratios or diversity just for the sake of diversity. Having a diverse group of characters strengthens the IP as a whole. And I'm sure you don't pay attention to a lack of diversity, because you likely conform to the "norm" and thus automatically relate to it, and don't even consider not being able to relate. And that's ok that you align with the target norm and relate to it, I'm glad that you do. All I'm telling you is that I have a different experience. I love the world of the IP, and would like to see something more.

[X-Ray]

From a modern day perspective, I agree about the lack of interesting female role models in BT. Setting-wise, within the fictional society, portayed in BT, it makes some sense, however. Its a dystopian, militarized and "re-feudalized" society, based upon real worlds feudal history. Arranged marriages, amongst nobility fits the setting, as well as Omi's role within her family and women within the combine, in general. I mean, look into feudale japans social order, it makes sense, within the setting.

On the meta perspective, BT reflects female role models of its times (the Alien movies aside). However, there are some (minor) female roles, coming close to "male" (generalized heroic) role models in BT. The Steiner body double, I have forgotten her name. Her role has the element of (ultimate) self sacrifize, which is a typical "warrior" role aspect, within the setting and martial societies, in general. But once again, a minor character, perphaps owed the fact that BT is a product of its times.

Back to the setting, and me, reading the first 12 books, I've had to roll eyes quite some times, about female characters in the books. 20 years old cliches and so on and so forth... But within the given fictional society, of the Inner Sphere, I'm not sure if they were actually missing. Within Clan society, they could have played a bigger role. A charismatic leader like Alexander Kerensky, for instance or even Hanse "the fox" Davion, in a female version, would have been a better contrast towards Inner Sphere feudalism, social roles norms. On the other hand, if we are talking badasses, I don't think there is (was) a need for a female 80's action hero kind of character. Okay, may be "Evantha kills" and "Evantha kills again" would have been fun to read.

To Natasha Kerensky: In the beginning, I saw her as walking cliche, which I didn't like that much (not to say ridiculous), but her role developed in an interesting direction, imo. Not as a model of gender equality, but as a character potraying the generational conflict within Clan society. She was the one who was trying to stay young, by any means (I know a female role cliche, but this role could have been played a man, as well). She's the old warrior, returning to a society where she became obsolete (by social norms). A bit like Morgan Kell and Yorinaga Kurita, however, they have returned to societies appreciating the old ("mystical") warrior. Natasha on the other hand, returned to a society without this sort of mysticism. The Clans warrior code is a scientifical cult of youth and performance. With this in mind, the early Natasha makes a bit more sense to me. But this connection comes pretty late in the story, when the "damage" is already done.

Women in literature, portrayed as emotinal characters, or even some kind of enslaved by emotions, is an old story. Classic literature is full of that, which brings me back to the point that every fiction is a child of its times.

The question is what sort of female roles, or role models for women, the audience would likte to see, today? But this question aims at the idea (or ideal) of todays gender equality, within society. I haven't read recent publications of BT, but are there "other" or even major female characters?


Since english isn't my native language, there might be some mistakes in writing, I hope the text is understandable, though.

[Faith McCarron]

I hadn't really thought about Natasha's story from the perspective of ageism that much before, but that is a really good point.

I will also add this to the point about more recent publications. Probably the biggest thing that characters in the newer publications have going against them is the way that Battletech products are now published. Back in it's prime, Battletech was very much driven by the novels. Now it's driven by the sourcebooks, with fiction added on, be it through pieces in various sourcebooks or the battlecorps online fiction publications. When it was more novel driven, you, by necessity, got to see more character development.

[Faith McCarron]

The 3145 Sourcebooks are all well done (TRO/FM/Era Report) and they do a good job of painting the Dark Age in a more positive light than it was done at the time of the clickytech MWDA stuff. But there is still a host of stuff that can be explored. But it looks like now, the big thing is going to be the Fortress walls coming down and the Republic fighting out.

[Rush Maguin]

Read "A Bonfire of Worlds." Finished it today, and to me it stands with the best of the original line of novels. DA should absolutely have its own identity and feel versus the classic era. I loved the classic era, but I was in it from 1989 up until recently. I welcome the universe changing and going somewhere new, and keeping things exciting. True, some of the earlier novels for DA were widely considered lackluster, but they did get on the horse. Now, I wish they'd do more. Bonfire, in my opinion, was bloody excellent.

[signal]

nobody has mentioned http://www.sarna.net...i/Tyra_Miraborg yet

[Hoffenstein]

Anyone remember the name of the Comms / Battlefield Tactician in the animated series? She was pretty cool

[Mazzyplz]

Faith McCarron, on 15 May 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

I can see that, but minor characters are still...minor. They're great for the depth that they add in totality to the universe, but what I would like to see is that depth on the individual character level.

As for Victor, he is a very flawed character. His weakness is his lack of political acumen and ability to sometimes see the big picture. He is forever failing to live up to the accomplishments of his father. If anything, the God-like character was Hanse Davion, to the point that he virtually HAD to be killed off with the coming of the Clans.

And I'm not saying there is something inherently wrong with having a weak female lead character, if it serves the story. Everyone has their weaknesses. My problem is when that becomes the norm and we don't see much outside of that box.

I totally get what you're saying with the minor characters thing though. I love them too. And they provide a rich playground to explore in. My point is that it would be nice to just once or twice not have to go to that level to find a female character.

but there are characters even in the cartoon like natalya

she is a fierce warrior who didn't actually ever lose to the enemy forces in the show, strong as a bull and real smart and honorable as well.
you're deliberately not counting her as a smart or strong female because she's not part of the good guys?? (although she is at one point)

you won't get close to a female strong and righteous lead because the writers back there and probably scifi fantasy writers even now are male and as such they are more comfortable writing male roles as main character, just the way it works in the real world.

if there were more females writing battletech fiction and such i am sure the ratio would be more even

that's your incredibly simple explanation and so i can say that yes, you are being a feminist boogieman looking for bias when in fact that's just the way things play out

[Koniving]

Faith McCarron, on 14 May 2015 - 03:42 AM, said:

What about Heavy Metal pilot Rhonda Snord? I haven't looked majorly into it, and while she's a father's daughter the father does die and she goes on to lead the merc unit herself.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Rhonda_Snord

The strong-types I typically see, sadly, aren't big in 'history' but little footnotes.


In the 80's there was a lot of butch women popular across the Japanese animes that heavily influenced Battletech. Then in the 90s the whole 'badass' woman thing fell apart, with few hints to them such as this art.


But after that... well, I hate to say it but some feminist movements came about, and depicting women as badasses or with masculine traits was "sexist" and vulgar. Unfortunately this had some truth to it, because said badass women were also given very shapely bodies especially toward the late 90s and early 2000s (not in Battletech per sé but in general, scaring people off from making attempts. See Lara Croft-esque oversexualization of strong characters).

There was a youtube video in which a heavy gender biased was shown not for the physical but for the mental, where villians are often given feminine traits despite being male, and heroines are given many masculine traits despite being female... inherently implying that imposed feminine traits are 'evil'. Something that many aren't even necessarily aware of when they see it, as said feminine traits simply denote 'arrogance,' 'self-importance', 'me over you', 'beauty over all else', the list goes on and on. I really wish I knew where it was but it's been a long time since I've seen it. Put a lot of perspective on things.

An interesting example of defeating the feminine traits are evil stereotype also comes from anime. In Bleach, there's a character who is obsessed with beauty but is not evil; though anyone watching it would assume the character to be gay despite the character's sexuality being completely unknown throughout.

In Valkyria Chronicles (the game, not sure about the anime), there's equality issues explored to great length, to the extent that there's a misogynist and a man-hater... and most entertaining is forcing the two to work together. The woman's man-hating trait (despite her appearance, she's in her late 20s; the game had a weird way of showing age) is known from the get-go (she's into girls and comments things like "It's our own secret garden" when accompanied by other women and "Ew, boys!" when near males not to mention pasted right on her traits at the start) while the man's misogynist (woman-hating) trait is vastly hidden (he's a loner that seems to have with issues about women) until you surround him with women (discovered entirely by accident; evidently "women get in the way"). I forced the two behind the commander character's tank. Him, being a lancer (anti-tank) to support the tank in its anti-tank operations. And her, an engineer, to fix the tank and keep the lancer reloaded. The character barks (voice quips/phrases/dialogue) that came up as their traits conflicted with each other was actually comical. Solving their issues isn't actually possible, but they did work together and while the distractions impaired their abilities they were able to get the job done. Beyond this, however, VC also had 'good' characters on the 'bad' side, 'bad' characters on the 'good' side, and the most evil person of all was actually an allied ambassador for the Federation, while the 'evil Empire' right down to the leading prince Maximillion, despite his ruthlessness was also a great advocate of ignoring social rank and giving opportunities to all who showed potential. Noble intentions, interesting though not necessarily evil methods, unfortunate results. The strong heroines and villianess (who is a hero to her own side and is in no way evil) are given somewhat badass traits without losing the fact that they are women. Though of the most interesting note, the main character Welkin Gunther, was given a small number of subtle feminine traits to his personality which has actually made him more interesting because of them, breaking a lot of common Japanese and Western molds for "heroes."

I'm afraid that unfortunately, it is unlikely to find a truly strong Battletech woman as the franchise wasn't really marketed to them. Rhonda Snord seems like the bet I'd place though if one does exist.

Though I highly think it should be marketed to women as well for the number of BT / Mechwarrior fans on the female side is surprisingly high (of 40 or so BT fans I know, 17 are women; 4 of them you'd never even think it'd interest them). A woman I've known online for 15 years recently told me she liked tanks. "What about tanks on legs?" "Battletech, Front Mission or Heavy Gear?" "O_O"

Edited by Koniving, 16 May 2015 - 03:45 PM.

[Nightshade24]

EditL Koniving beat me to it and more.

Edited by Nightshade24, 16 May 2015 - 03:55 PM.

[Nathan Foxbane]

I am curious to what others think General Arianna Winston of the Erridani Light Horse. I found her to be one of the more interesting characters overall in BT. Pity she only shows up in the Twilight of the Clans series, because there are so many things to keep track in those books nobody really gets enough time in the limelight... Except Victor. Victor always gets enough or too much limelight.

Koniving, on 16 May 2015 - 03:26 PM, said:

What about Heavy Metal pilot Rhonda Snord? I haven't looked majorly into it, and while she's a father's daughter the father does die and she goes on to lead the merc unit herself.
I'm afraid that unfortunately, it is unlikely to find a truly strong Battletech woman as the franchise wasn't really marketed to them. Rhonda Snord seems like the bet I'd place though if one does exist.

Rhonda Snord for all her fame spent most of her only novel appearance in a flippin' coma. Granted, she was pretty epic in the final battle, but her daughter Alexandria Natasha Snord gets more time as a character overall. Tasha is basically put through hell for most of Call of Duty, which she takes like a trooper. I am afraid I have not read the source books and scenario packs so I do not know how well portrayed she is there.

Star Captain Angela Bekker from Roar of Honor was reasonably written. Though in her case it is less an exploration of gender traits and more of an atypical clan, particularly Ghost Bear, commander.

Really sad in most of the interesting female characters in BT are found in fluff or as very minor supporting characters.

Edited by Nathan Foxbane, 16 May 2015 - 06:59 PM.

[Faith McCarron]

Yeah, I think we would all be better off if we just pretended the cartoon never happened. I don't think the cartoon was good for the portrayal of ANYONE.

Arianna Winston is a good example, and one that had completely slipped my mind to be honest, thank you for bringing her up. She was actually pretty well written all around.

And I am with you 100% Koniving, it would be great to see a broader marketing strategy for things like Battletech. Although I will say that a lot of the gender-gap in things like Battletech, and gaming in general is more an example of it being hard to break out of established norms, patterns, and trends, for a host of reasons. My own personal friend pool is entirely gender segregated when it comes to gaming as a whole. And it becomes self-sustaining on both sides of the equation. Is it hard to get into gaming as a female when guys act they way they do, sure. But at the same time, lots of females just stay away based on assumptions and norms and never bother giving it a try or exploring some of the fictional universes out there, rather than any real experience.

[Faith McCarron]

VorpalAnvil, on 17 May 2015 - 09:22 AM, said:

Moderated quote.

Pretty sure you're trolling, which is why I gave you the "like". If you came here to kill pugs, that's great, you can go on about your business and kill pugs to your heart's content. I have no problem with that. I wish you all the enjoyment you can get out of it. Nothing about my enjoyment of the game universe negatively impacts on your player experience, so what is the problem?

But comments like "not debate the effects of 4th wave feminism with some Marxist college dropout barista." are part of the problem. You know nothing about me or anyone here, yet you decide to make a trolling straw man attack. That is what turns women, and people in general, away from gaming. Why would me having a discussion about character development in the IP's fictional universe threaten you so much that you would feel the need to come and be nasty like that? I don't get it.

Edited by CyclonerM, 17 May 2015 - 12:19 PM.

[Nightmare1]

I'm not sure which is funnier, the fact that this thread exists, or the fact that it actually made it to three pages.

I mean, seriously, BT Fiction isn't exactly the Landmark Series or a great classical work. It's discordant. It's written primarily by guys who wanted to put their imaginations on paper. They couldn't even be consistent with which weapons had what effects. Stackpole made everything explode. Coleman made the reactors melt and burn out of their chassis and fall to the ground. Long made Gauss Rifles something of a joke, but made PPCs into ultimate weapons of death (Think D.R.T). Complaining that the authors didn't imagine enough equality is really funny to me and demonstrates a willingness to ignore the more glaring problems that exist with the series. It also shows a lack of understanding of the male mind.

Case in point, I wrote and published my own book, Man Without A Cross. I gifted a copy to my parents when it was finished. The first thing my Mother said upon finishing it was, "Where's the women?" It was then that I realized I hadn't included a single female character in the book and hadn't thought twice about it. My target audience is young boys. I recall being a young boy many years ago and reading similar books back then. It never occurred to me that I wasn't demonstrating enough "equality." I was too busy putting thoughts on paper, writing about battles and cool technology and such. At that time, I could care less about equality.

For what it's worth though, my next piece of literature has several female characters and is targeted at a broader audience. I have no regrets about that first novella though.