22 replies to this topic

[Kin3ticX]

This is a very complex problem that PGI needs to tackle so it will take a bit to explain.

As you are all probably aware, there is a unit in MWO called Mercstar -MS- which tagged Tukayyid and currently tags more planets than any other unit BY FAR.



Now before you start ranting about zerg tactics, turret drops, nerfing big units, and how broken everything is consider a few more things FIRST...

• To create a Mercstar like CW unit, it requires smaller units to give up their in game unit. Many smaller units are unwilling to form a Mercstar like unit due to this. While -MS- units give up their main unit tag to work together, there are three main benefits. 1) Tagging/taking planets together. 2) Switching contracts together fosters longer alliance endurance. 3) Bigger units form 12-mans more easily within a unit framework(standardized dropdecks, leadership, recruitment, etc etc)

• Loose unit alliances (shadow cooperatives): This is when units work together, keep their tags, but do not tag planets together. From my experience in CW, these arrangements are usually short term and do not have as much staying power or impact as a Mercstar like unit. This is due to a couple things. Switching contracts and keeping them synced with other units can be a real pain because players within each unit don't easily agree on which faction to go next. 2nd, in loose alliances, the larger more active unit will likely tag the planet. You can say the planet tag doesn't matter as many times as you want. However, while one unit tags planets and the other doesn't, eventually the smaller unit will stop spinning its wheels and the teamwork stops. All the while the Mercstar like unit will continue pushing onward.

Here's what I propose. We need superunit support in MWO which allows the following

• feature allowing a unit to create a super unit and invite other units
  
• The leader of the super unit picks the contract
  
• Social tab for unit and super unit
  
• Normal unit tag shows in solo, regular, and private games
  
• Super unit tag shows in CW matches.
  
• edit: feature that allows cbill transfers from unit coffer to unit coffer

I believe this will help foster the creation of stronger units which will have more success and fun in CW.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 16 May 2015 - 01:01 PM.

[HC Harlequin]

Or possibly enact a true split between house and merc units. Right now all the units are house units. This means house units have no in game support to hire merc units on a battle by battle, contract by contract basis.

[Chagatay]

I believe super units like MS are the bane of CW*. A single unit such as MS has more pull than an entire faction**.

As to the solutions add more carrots:
- Longer contract lengths so that said super unit can't change faction every week (without some real c-bill monetary penalties as that unit is super big)
- Faction loyalty rewards that make being loyal worth something very special

Add enough carrots and even big PMCs like MS will eventually dissolve into smaller clans (sorta like the IS divided into 5 great houses and minor powers).

*Nothing personal and I do like most of the guys in MS.
**And yes there are more people in MS than active players in CJF's CW map.

[Crockdaddy]

There really are not enough pop in this game to do this. A few groups can pull it off but once they suck up most of the good players the rest are just so much fodder to them.

[Klappspaten]

Or do it like the FRR units, get together on your faction hub and play the game together.
We know each other, we have a lot of fun and the only tag that counts for us on a planet is FRR.

[Koniving]

HC Harlequin, on 15 May 2015 - 09:24 AM, said:

Or possibly enact a true split between house and merc units. Right now all the units are house units. This means house units have no in game support to hire merc units on a battle by battle, contract by contract basis.

This.
Mercs and House units were supposed to be two entirely separate entities, complete with two separate routes of CW (mercs on the periphery, Houses in the IS). Even without going that route, having actual House units would allow the game to have the super unit structure that has been implied here. The Mercs could then have their own separate pull.

Many of the designs and concepts PGI pushed forward implied a lot of huge differences between Lone Wolves, Faction Loyalists and Merc Units. Including several implied notions that Faction Loyalists would get the Easy Mode (Decent income and no RR or mostly paid by the faction so you'd pay a tiny percentage) while the Mercs would get the Hardcore Mode (High income worthy of mercs, but also full R&R.)

The Lone Wolves would be sort of the middle ground, allowing them to 'sample' CW and fill in anywhere they want to help get matches going quicker. They'd have some help with R&R when working for a faction but not as much as a Loyalist, with a slightly higher income, and some chances to get extra income from things like bounties. Not as easy street as Faction Loyalists (including Clans). Not as high risk/high reward as a Merc Unit. Just enough to make them want to choose -- eventually -- to go one route or the other and in the mean time let them fill in empty slots.

Edited by Koniving, 15 May 2015 - 10:21 AM.

[Rugarou]

I've some experience with "super units" from other games and they are a bane to any game that fights for control of territory and/or resources. There are two things that happen when superunits are allowed to form.

1. If only a single superunit exist, it decides the outcome. Period. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. The superunit is such a large amount of the population that non-members cannot stop it realistically. As can be seen with -MS- in this iteration of CW.

2. If two or more superunits exist, then those superunits will inevitably make a pact and the fighting for resources/territory stagnates. Prime example of this is EvE Online and nullsec space. Sure there will be "fighting" along the border and occasionally territory changes hands, but for the most part nothing happens. Think of the Inner Sphere after the 4th Succession War. Not much happens really as far as big territory changes until the Clans invade.

Personally, I think a lower limit should be instituted for Unit membership. But even that will not stop out of game formation of superunits. Some of the suggestions for rewards and cost are heading in the right direction for ways to control them in game. Whether they are implemented and will something like those suggestions work is the bigger question.

[Davegt27]

Quote

This is a very complex problem that PGI needs to tackle so it will take a bit to explain.

As you are all probably aware, there is a unit in MWO called Mercstar -MS- which tagged Tukayyid and currently tags more planets than any other unit BY FAR.



Now before you start ranting about zerg tactics, turret drops, nerfing big units, and how broken everything is consider a few more things FIRST...

• To create a Mercstar like CW unit, it requires smaller units to give up their in game unit. Many smaller units are unwilling to form a Mercstar like unit due to this. While -MS- units give up their main unit tag to work together, there are three main benefits. 1) Tagging/taking planets together. 2) Switching contracts together fosters longer alliance endurance. 3) Bigger units form 12-mans more easily within a unit framework(standardized dropdecks, leadership, recruitment, etc etc)

• Loose unit alliances (shadow cooperatives): This is when units work together, keep their tags, but do not tag planets together. From my experience in CW, these arrangements are usually short term and do not have as much staying power or impact as a Mercstar like unit. This is due to a couple things. Switching contracts and keeping them synced with other units can be a real pain because players within each unit don't easily agree on which faction to go next. 2nd, in loose alliances, the larger more active unit will likely tag the planet. You can say the planet tag doesn't matter as many times as you want. However, while one unit tags planets and the other doesn't, eventually the smaller unit will stop spinning its wheels and the teamwork stops. All the while the Mercstar like unit will continue pushing onward.

Here's what I propose. We need superunit support in MWO which allows the following

• feature allowing a unit to create a super unit and invite other units
  
• The leader of the super unit picks the contract
  
• Social tab for unit and super unit
  
• Normal unit tag shows in solo, regular, and private games
  
• Super unit tag shows in CW matches.

I believe this will help foster the creation of stronger units which will have more success and fun in CW.

interesting concept

but I think units get enough help from PGI already

Edited by Davegt27, 15 May 2015 - 03:00 PM.

[sdsnowbum]

Davegt27, on 15 May 2015 - 11:54 AM, said:

interesting concept

but I think units get enough help already from PGI already

It's actually the opposite. PGI is doing things to support solos. LFG, VOIP, faction chat, these are things that PGI is making available to everyone, that simulate things that units basically already had.

I hope they go just a little farther though, just a little more support might make a huge difference. If solos were able to better organize drop decks, coordinate which planets to queue on or to avoid, and get some intel on what is happening on planets outside of their own faction.

Then again there will always be a skill/leadership gap so maybe none of that would help.

[Triordinant]

It all boils down to low CW population. This is the reason for low CW population.

[Logan812]

sdsnowbum, on 15 May 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:

It's actually the opposite. PGI is doing things to support solos. LFG, VOIP, faction chat, these are things that PGI is making available to everyone, that simulate things that units basically already had.

Yeah, God forbid PGI adds something that is STANDARD in practically every other modern game with multiplayer...

[ztac]

Isn't this is part down to the fact that PGI can not really regulate factions very well?
Taking player choice away for factions would not be a good idea. You could limit unit size, but if they want to work together you can't do a thing about it!

Numbers count in a gamemode like CW. As does the ability for people to work together (or not). This is not technically a problem unless PGI start to implement a rewards system for planets , which will make even more people leave CW! (think about it and look at the map right now, If you are a clan player and there were rewards for planets you would not be getting anything , So you play IS and join a big unit.... The biggest unit with most planets maybe? also as a PUG is generally not in a unit the get nothing...... Small units have no chance either, so they all change or stop playing.... It just goes on and on. As it is you get rewards for playing for a faction , these are the same for everyone as they rise in exp.)

As this game gets more one sided the more people will stop playing it, it is what people do! (In reality or perceptions of reality.)

[AnimeFreak40K]

ztac, on 16 May 2015 - 03:42 AM, said:

Isn't this is part down to the fact that PGI can not really regulate factions very well?
Taking player choice away for factions would not be a good idea. You could limit unit size, but if they want to work together you can't do a thing about it!

Numbers count in a gamemode like CW. As does the ability for people to work together (or not). This is not technically a problem unless PGI start to implement a rewards system for planets , which will make even more people leave CW! (think about it and look at the map right now, If you are a clan player and there were rewards for planets you would not be getting anything , So you play IS and join a big unit.... The biggest unit with most planets maybe? also as a PUG is generally not in a unit the get nothing...... Small units have no chance either, so they all change or stop playing.... It just goes on and on. As it is you get rewards for playing for a faction , these are the same for everyone as they rise in exp.)

As this game gets more one sided the more people will stop playing it, it is what people do! (In reality or perceptions of reality.)

Actually, if you implement a unit population cap, that should eliminate the problems of superunits. This will prevent large units from utterly dominating the map anywhere they go.

Yes, you are correct, PGI cannot stop units from working together should they choose to do so. However, it was already mentioned that these alliances are temporary as an individual unit's goals/motivations, back-end politicking and the ebb and flow of the map shift and change. This will especially be true for those units that are not loyalists; one week they could be fighting shoulder to shoulder, the next they could be facing off against each other all on the same planet.

While that may not be enough to ruin friendships and it is possible in a week they will be on the same side again, but in the end they are still separate units.

This all being said, I think that maybe some sort of unit cap is a good idea. Some units have 100-200 players but a lot of them are either inactive or simply don't play CW. A Unit cap would allow who want to focus their numbers on CW to do so, while those that don't (and there are a few out there) can still choose a unit affiliation without feeling obligated to do CW.

[G SE7EN7]

Thread = lol
MWO needs more players:QED

[Gut]

I think you guys should go back to being small units and play more comp teams. The fact that no other "super units" exist shows the state of affairs here.

[Kin3ticX]

Gut, on 16 May 2015 - 05:41 AM, said:

I think you guys should go back to being small units and play more comp teams. The fact that no other "super units" exist shows the state of affairs here.

SRoT 433
SWOL 360
BWC 331
CI 329
MRDR 305
-MS- 300
CWI 271
SRPH 246
TCAF 243
RRB 242
BoR 232
CWDG 210
HHoD 204
CGBI 199
12DG 193
228 190
PHL 184
MGA 176
PL 175
AW 164
ACES 160
- T 156
AS 152

So everyone bigger than -MS- needs to break up too right?

If they were all actually playing as much as -MS-, things would be much better. Until then, lets let some of the smaller units get to 100+ where they can have an impact(not only for their faction but for their unit).

This thread is more about the need for multi-unit support rather than reasons to break large units apart.

The question of why arn't as many people playing can be address over at this topic
http://mwomercs.com/...r-search-times/

Edited by Kin3ticX, 16 May 2015 - 09:58 AM.

[Gut]

Honestly, I think they should. They usually don't get better or make as much of an impact as they could. Look at that one team, kcom, for instance, on how it should be done.

Problem is there's a lot of teams that would give your super group some actual competition if it was actually worth doing, so they need to fix incentives before other stuff.

[Escaflow]

To cut it short: Then there will be no -MS- but just -MSA-, -MSB-, -MSC-, -MSD-...
They all got the same contract, are on the same TS, sync attacking and do stuff they do now just with another letter.
This will just change nothing.

BTW i don't understand it, first all units laugh at PUGs that they have to join a unit, then they join a unit and now they scream that there is a large unit... make up your minds!

[Gut]

Escaflow, on 16 May 2015 - 10:37 AM, said:

To cut it short: Then there will be no -MS- but just -MSA-, -MSB-, -MSC-, -MSD-...
They all got the same contract, are on the same TS, sync attacking and do stuff they do now just with another letter.
This will just change nothing.

BTW i don't understand it, first all units laugh at PUGs that they have to join a unit, then they join a unit and now they scream that there is a large unit... make up your minds!

First off, disagreeing with you is not laughing at anyone or screaming about anything.

Secondly, it makes sense that all mechwarriors should belong to a unit, whether it be based on lore, competition, or otherwise. This is not a single player game.

Thirdly, even within whatever house is your choice, there are different teams within the overall house that relate to each other. Within even battalions there was division. You can work together for a common goal and still have a tight knit group that effects things.

The difference is for CW is it shows which division of the unit did the actual work,and if stats are included, who was actually "best" (as of course, stats can be extrapolated to say whatever you want), rather than 200 people getting credit for primarily the work of 48.

Right now, seeing -MS- by a planet makes me think of only two groups of 12 people, good players, but they didn't have to fight anyone really difficult over and over to get it.

That's what I want out of it, better battles overall, and more units involved. They can add support for "super units" if they want, but there's so many other things that need to make the game better first.

Edited by Gut, 16 May 2015 - 10:54 AM.

[Kin3ticX]

Gut, on 16 May 2015 - 10:05 AM, said:

Honestly, I think they should. They usually don't get better or make as much of an impact as they could. Look at that one team, kcom, for instance, on how it should be done.

Problem is there's a lot of teams that would give your super group some actual competition if it was actually worth doing, so they need to fix incentives before other stuff.

--

First off, disagreeing with you is not laughing at anyone or screaming about anything.

Secondly, it makes sense that all mechwarriors should belong to a unit, whether it be based on lore, competition, or otherwise. This is not a single player game.

Thirdly, even within whatever house is your choice, there are different teams within the overall house that relate to each other. Within even battalions there was division. You can work together for a common goal and still have a tight knit group that effects things.

The difference is for CW is it shows which division of the unit did the actual work,and if stats are included, who was actually "best" (as of course, stats can be extrapolated to say whatever you want), rather than 200 people getting credit for primarily the work of 48.

Right now, seeing -MS- by a planet makes me think of only two groups of 12 people, good players, but they didn't have to fight anyone really difficult over and over to get it.

That's what I want out of it, better battles overall, and more units involved. They can add support for "super units" if they want, but there's so many other things that need to make the game better first.

Not every team can get access to super active players or even gets to cherry pick them like SJR/EMP. From the looks of it, having 200 players doesn't even guarantee a CW 12-man will form every night. Yay for edge cases like KCom, super great group of guys, but not everyone can do that with so few players. If you want better fights, start recruiting some new players and try to carry them perhaps? -MS- has several new recruits trying to learn to play and we lose games for it. Is SJR or Kcom doing that? Obviously not with high win rates.