27 replies to this topic

[Duke Nedo]

Not much time here, national day in Norway and all, but I need this off my chest. There's a lot of red numbers in that announcements post about quirks, but lets see what it does to some realistic builds.

I mainly play IS at the moment I guess, so these are probably not the best you can do, just some quick smurfys:

TBR:
Gauss+2x LPL: 1.22s LPLs, 9% duration penalty (was too lazy to shift CT in smurfy so ignore that one)
Gauss+5x MPL: 1.0s MPLs, 18% duration penalty

SCR:
Gauss+2x ERLL: 6% duration penalty

I am sure there are plenty of better builds. How would you build after the duration quirks? What is the realistic penalty we will see?

Edited by Duke Nedo, 17 May 2015 - 12:37 AM.

[Tristan Winter]

Duke Nedo, on 17 May 2015 - 12:34 AM, said:

How would you build after the duration quirks? What is the realistic penalty we will see?

I would... keep using missile launchers, MGs and UAC5s on my Timber Wolves, and stay away from the boring laser + gauss Clan meta.

Maybe my builds aren't realistic.

Anyway, gratulerer med dagen and happy Free From Sweden-day!

[kapusta11]

The problem with new quirks is not the fact that "OMG TBR and SCR was nerfed" but the fact that it was (yet another) step in wrong direction. Min-maxed Clan mech > min-maxed IS mech because core Clan TECH > IS TECH, I'm talking about CXL engines, endo and ferro upgrades, 2 crit DHS, gauss and to some point, mainly because of boating is prefered play style - lasers. SRMs are better as well but still bad weapon in general. Some clan mech's can't be min-maxed because of fixed undesired equipment and thus used as an excuse for not addressing true issue. Nerfs to TBR and SCR mean that any other optimised clan mech must be nerfed as well and there are TONS of those.

Laser duration being nerfed is not the end of the world though, it just mean TBR will have the same laser burn duration as macroed (to avoid Ghost Heat) Stalker.

Edited by kapusta11, 17 May 2015 - 12:50 AM.

[Lightfoot]

Why would you use a Gauss Rifle on a Clan mech? The de-sync is the dippiest thing ever seen in MechWarrior and it takes up half the mech's payload when ammo is added.

Goofy quirks. That's why CW is dead, because organized teams bring the best quirked mechs and those are Inner Sphere. So CW is horribly lopsided now which is why the I.S. cues were so long for the Tukkiyad event.

[Duke Nedo]

kapusta11, on 17 May 2015 - 12:47 AM, said:

The problem with new quirks is not the fact that "OMG TBR and SCR was nerfed" but the fact that it was (yet another) step in wrong direction. Min-maxed Clan mech > min-maxed IS mech because core Clan TECH > IS TECH, I'm talking about CXL engines, endo and ferro upgrades, 2 crit DHS, gauss and to some point, mainly because of boating is prefered play style - lasers. SRMs are better as well but still bad weapon in general. Some clan mech's can't be min-maxed because of fixed undesired equipment and thus used as an excuse for not addressing true issue. Nerfs to TBR and SCR mean that any other optimised clan mech must be nerfed as well and there are TONS of those.

Laser duration being nerfed is not the end of the world though, it just mean TBR will have the same laser burn duration as macroed (to avoid Ghost Heat) Stalker.

I do agree with that, but what to do about it. Imo quirks is unavoidable if you want mechs with bad geometry to ever be viable. For clan vs is balance its all about the engine so they would either make it so is xl can survive losing a st, or there can never be unquirked balance. Hitboxes and locked eq/ff/endo mitigates some but very asymmetrically...

Tristan Winter, on 17 May 2015 - 12:41 AM, said:

I would... keep using missile launchers, MGs and UAC5s on my Timber Wolves, and stay away from the boring laser + gauss Clan meta.

Maybe my builds aren't realistic.

Anyway, gratulerer med dagen and happy Free From Sweden-day!

Gratulerer med dagen!

[XX Sulla XX]

Ya I think people are going a bit crazy over this. I think we will see lots of gauss and laser TWs and Storm Crows. And they are supposed to adjust Clan ACs soon also.

[Insects]

People are also too short sighted to see that if they have actually been significantly weakened then the top IS mechs will face another round of nerfing too.

TW and SC are the top bar which everything has been getting quirked in an arms race to match.
If they are now over that bar then they will be brought back down.

Next week will tell what the true impact is and how players route around the damage.

[KuroNyra]

kapusta11, on 17 May 2015 - 12:47 AM, said:

Laser duration being nerfed is not the end of the world though, it just mean TBR will have the same laser burn duration as macroed (to avoid Ghost Heat) Stalker.

And thus you forget that They need the time for a Macroed stalker to use ONE of there large laser.
In 2 second, one Large Laser or Two for the Timber Wolf

The Stalker?! He will be able to use what: the three first LL? Then the 3 others? That in close to 2 second?

joelmuzz, on 17 May 2015 - 01:42 AM, said:

People are also too short sighted to see that if they have actually been significantly weakened then the top IS mechs will face another round of nerfing too.

TW and SC are the top bar which everything has been getting quirked in an arms race to match.
If they are now over that bar then they will be brought back down.

Considering how they handle the nerfs, we're in our right to have huge doubt about that.
TW and SC are the Top Bar for CLANS.
IS mech also had there top bar. Maybe you have forgotten the Stalker, the Thunderbolt.

Edited by KuroNyra, 17 May 2015 - 01:48 AM.

[XX Sulla XX]

joelmuzz, on 17 May 2015 - 01:42 AM, said:

People are also too short sighted to see that if they have actually been significantly weakened then the top IS mechs will face another round of nerfing too.

TW and SC are the top bar which everything has been getting quirked in an arms race to match.
If they are now over that bar then they will be brought back down.

Next week will tell what the true impact is and how players route around the damage.

They did the these mechs because they were tier 1 mechs with other mechs below. I do not think they will hot more IS mechs soon. Next quirks might be to bring the very worst mechs up some. Or thats what it should be.

[Elizander]

You are better off picking a mech for 1) Hitbox 2) Geometry/Hard Point type and location 3) Engine rating (if applicable). Once you have that most quirks won't matter as much.

The problem with the 4N was that it was considered the worst STALKER which is still way better than the other assaults.

[Sjorpha]

KuroNyra, on 17 May 2015 - 01:46 AM, said:

TW and SC are the Top Bar for CLANS.
IS mech also had there top bar. Maybe you have forgotten the Stalker, the Thunderbolt.

TW and SC were (and maybe still will be, we don't know yet) the top for the game as a whole, with the stalker and TBR below. Most people play public queue, so it makes no sense to separate IS and clans in the balance discusson. We'll see how the nerfs pan out, what is clear is that the HBR will be a superior laser boat now since it was already tier 1 and isn't being nerfed.

My guess is the nerfs are a little too heavy on the clan side, or rather some of the energy nerfs should have been to agility and other things instead.

[JustEvil]

Duke Nedo, on 17 May 2015 - 01:11 AM, said:

Imo quirks is unavoidable if you want mechs with bad geometry to ever be viable.

Um, no? If geometry is bad then do a rework of geometry. Introduce better hitboxes and damage model overall, so you won't be able to shoot off mechs arm by poking its damn fingers or strip off front armor by shooting its sides. It's beyond ridiculous.

[KuroNyra]

Sjorpha, on 17 May 2015 - 02:21 AM, said:

TW and SC were (and maybe still will be, we don't know yet) the top for the game as a whole, with the stalker and TBR below. Most people play public queue, so it makes no sense to separate IS and clans in the balance discusson. We'll see how the nerfs pan out, what is clear is that the HBR will be a superior laser boat now since it was already tier 1 and isn't being nerfed.

2 different set of weapons, engine.
2 category of tier, 2 faction.

Yes, you can make a Tier for the IS, a tier for the Clans.
And a Tier for both of them.

In even in the last system. Some IS mech were on par with the Stormcrow and the Timber Wolf.

[Duke Nedo]

JustEvil, on 17 May 2015 - 02:21 AM, said:

Um, no? If geometry is bad then do a rework of geometry. Introduce better hitboxes and damage model overall, so you won't be able to shoot off mechs arm by poking its damn fingers or strip off front armor by shooting its sides. It's beyond ridiculous.

But some mechs are supposed to look somewhat like they do.... and more importantly, they won't completely remodel any of them at this stage so we are stuck with what we've got sort of. The ones that are up for a geometry pass could be improved but otherwise there is no magic (except quirks) for the ones with low slung hardpoints and wide chests.

[JustEvil]

Some mechs? Which? Dragon's belly is nowhere near the size of dragons belly on BT artworks for example. Not to mention that Dragon runs like a sumo fighter. Big number of mechs are also oversized.

There is magic except quirks, you just have to think beyond what we have now. If for example Dragon has ridiculous belly then we can remodel it to fit BT arts, it really is too big, and whole dragon looks too clumsy. It still will be somewhat big (the belly), but then we can make an advanced damage model where shooting 1mm of Dragon belly poking out of cover wont destroy whole mech - it'll just scratch this 1mm of armor.

Quirks are ridiculous idea that prevent global balancing procedures and working on unique profile of weapons. We can't make global change to WeaponX due to it being underpowered on most mechs, because MechX has some ridiculous quirks making this WeaponX a tool of destruction on this MechX.
If anything, quirks should be based on visual appearance of mechs and also should be at flat amount, because percentage amounts are getting out of hand after certain level.

For example - Orion has nice radiators on the back of its hardpoints when you mount weapons on them. Why not give it some -2 flat points of heat for those hardpoints then? This actually makes sense.

Notice how I can't talk about defensive quirks, becuase there are none (okay, some structure/armor buffs, wow so much). Most of them are concentrated on increasing weapons damage output/range.

Also notice how Stalker was nerfed due to its LL mandess and TDR-5SS wasn't touched. Tip - TDR-5SS can outrange every clan mech with its ERLL + Module (Clans needs to mount module and about 5 tons of TC). It can also hillhump, it can zombie, it can run fast, it can torso twist... And on top of that it is lighter than Stalker and you can take two or even three of them for CW.

Without those quirk madness we could just look at LL/ERLL/CERLL and balance them on the global basis and not on the per chassis basis (which [per chasis basis] is far more bothersome and time consuming).

Edited by JustEvil, 17 May 2015 - 05:28 AM.

[Duke Nedo]

JustEvil, on 17 May 2015 - 05:26 AM, said:

Some mechs? Which? Dragon's belly is nowhere near the size of dragons belly on BT artworks for example. Not to mention that Dragon runs like a sumo fighter. Big number of mechs are also oversized.

There is magic except quirks, you just have to think beyond what we have now. If for example Dragon has ridiculous belly then we can remodel it to fit BT arts, it really is too big, and whole dragon looks too clumsy. It still will be somewhat big (the belly), but then we can make an advanced damage model where shooting 1mm of Dragon belly poking out of cover wont destroy whole mech - it'll just scratch this 1mm of armor.

Quirks are ridiculous idea that prevent global balancing procedures and working on unique profile of weapons. We can't make global change to WeaponX due to it being underpowered on most mechs, because MechX has some ridiculous quirks making this WeaponX a tool of destruction on this MechX.
If anything, quirks should be based on visual appearance of mechs and also should be at flat amount, because percentage amounts are getting out of hand after certain level.

For example - Orion has nice radiators on the back of its hardpoints when you mount weapons on them. Why not give it some -2 flat points of heat for those hardpoints then? This actually makes sense.

Notice how I can't talk about defensive quirks, becuase there are none (okay, some structure/armor buffs, wow so much). Most of them are concentrated on increasing weapons damage output/range.

Also notice how Stalker was nerfed due to its LL mandess and TDR-5SS wasn't touched. Tip - TDR-5SS can outrange every clan mech with its ERLL + Module (Clans needs to mount module and about 5 tons of TC). It can also hillhump, it can zombie, it can run fast, it can torso twist... And on top of that it is lighter than Stalker and you can take two or even three of them for CW.

Without those quirk madness we could just look at LL/ERLL/CERLL and balance them on the global basis and not on the per chassis basis (which [per chasis basis] is far more bothersome and time consuming).

Yeah, I mean take any humanoid mech that doesn't have great shoulder hardpoints and you have a mech that looks like it's supposed to look but is gimped by it's geometry contra the game mechanics of MWO. Then you have all mechs with wide torsos or long snouts, you can say they are supposed to look differently because of some Sarna picture, but to be honest most mechs in MWO look great. Some just have unfortunate geometries which makes them uncompetitive. These mechs really need quirks to get on the field.

That said, I probably agree with you anyways, quirks shouldn't be the first run-to solution for balance, but we have what we have so... after they started quirkomania there is not coming back unless you redesign it all from scratch... and the odds of that happening....

All in all, the nerfs are not toooo harsh on the clans, the thing that punishes all energy builds much more than builds using mixed pods. That could have been avoided by just using a blanket nerf to the chassi of say 10% laser duration and 10% cooldown. That would have worked a bit more fairly imo.

[Yokaiko]

Duke Nedo, on 17 May 2015 - 08:46 AM, said:

All in all, the nerfs are not toooo harsh on the clans, the thing that punishes all energy builds much more than builds using mixed pods. That could have been avoided by just using a blanket nerf to the chassi of say 10% laser duration and 10% cooldown. That would have worked a bit more fairly imo.

Stock Timber prime takes a 22% DPS hit on er-llas, before someone moves I may add, er-mlas, same deal, all of the lasers on the mech are good for all of 7.8 dps figure 8 for the LRMs (perfect world) and 1 for the MG (optimistic and the mech takes a 11% damage hit for using its stock loadout (no modules, doing most of this in my head)

By the way, that is a super hot build with only two tons of missile ammo (9 vollies) and a ton of MG (who cares).

Stormcrow prime takes a 22% hit, just for existing.

[Duke Nedo]

Yokaiko, on 17 May 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:

Stock Timber prime takes a 22% DPS hit on er-llas, before someone moves I may add, er-mlas, same deal, all of the lasers on the mech are good for all of 7.8 dps figure 8 for the LRMs (perfect world) and 1 for the MG (optimistic and the mech takes a 11% damage hit for using its stock loadout (no modules, doing most of this in my head)

By the way, that is a super hot build with only two tons of missile ammo (9 vollies) and a ton of MG (who cares).

Stormcrow prime takes a 22% hit, just for existing.

I meant that as an improvement for all-E builds. As it is now, it seems they went for 3% laser duration per E hardpoint, so if you go for a 7 E build you'll end up with 21% laser duration and 21% cooldown. A blanket 10 + 10% would have been much nicer... now I guess you get shoehorned into building gauss+2E and get away with 9% nerfs (if you want the -5% heat on the left arm, which you do)....

[Johny Rocket]

I own the Stalker and the Raven.

Only bought the Raven to Elite the 3L, but its grown on me as a sniper, pair of erll and an lrm5, I use the lrms most for pinpointing enemies with ams. Beautiful way to pop up for a shot with the lasers. The quirks that I don't like are the negative structure quirks, the weapons quirks weren't that big on my build. So now its less tanky, probably get it thru elite and sell, 3L does the same job but with ecm.

The 4N, it appears they are trying to push it more towards missiles, This won't make it less powerful but ruins what made this mech unique from its brothers. I can almost guarantee the next round of OP circle jerking threads will involve one of the other Stalkers. This concerns me because the 2 most likely, I like more than the 4N to start with. The 3F was the 1st mech I purchased and has the quirks for the current meta. The Misery well, who doesn't hate to see one of those stomping up for some hugs and tough love. My build the only thing I worry about is lrm rain, anything else and I can eat the fire and live 4 min and still do 800+ dmg. It is one of the mechs that leads to the death ball. Match me up with another Stalker or a Crab and we will lead the flank push down your line eating a couple of you at a time.
The 5M can boat energy or missile or dangerous combinations. It really doesn't need quirks to be potent. Mine has 1 erll 2 lrm10 and 3 lrm5, produced 900+ dmg matches regularly, though I haven't played it in months.
Never played the other 2 but they appear to be close to those already mentioned, they're Stalkers so...

Edited by Tractor Joe, 17 May 2015 - 09:41 AM.

[Yokaiko]

Get rid of the idea that anything happening to the -4N is meaningfull, its literally 3% DPS.

Ghost Heat is why everyone jumped on that wagon, and that hasn't changed.

Edited by Yokaiko, 17 May 2015 - 09:41 AM.