172 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Kain Thul, on 18 May 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

So, based on every past "balance decision" they've made collectively (both Russ and Paul) which do you think they are doing? He said he hopes they have a plan and aren't simply winging it---everything that they have ever done seems like the latter to me.

and...again, if you want to argue with him, PM him, instead of pointlessly filling my post with it, and thus further reducing the chances the Devs will even bother looking. Thanks.

[Mirkk Defwode]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 May 2015 - 08:28 AM, said:

Yes. But to what degree? And Which Fans? cause to please Group A the developer will likely piss off group B. And Group C will be upset cause their concerns weren't addressed but Group A's were so they quit!

Also FF games started to suck after 11. I tried 13... It was beautiful... but the story did not grab me.

I agree, can't make everyone happy. But you can attempt to not piss everyone off to.

Admittedly this is a pretty volatile crowd.

[Bill Shakespear]

I'm fine with the negative energy cooldown quirks. They might even help people manage their heat better.

The negative duration quirks on the other hand, feel a little heavy handed. At the very least it'll be +15%. For the CERLL that brings it to what? 1.72s? It is already borderline painful at 1.5s. And we all remember the 2.0s CERLL laser hose days. Ugh.

I would look first at adjusting the agility of the TBR and SCR and see where that gets us. Reduce their torso twist range and speed, turn rate, etc to compensate for their huge engines. (And then look into decoupling agility and engine size. Might make it easier to balance chassis in general, but that is a conversation for another day).

[Wildstreak]

Laserboating happens because of logisitcs, nothing more than that. It is why not only do you see Clans laserboating, it is why Resistance 2 has lots of them. Only way to fix it is to add something to CW or remove that silly respawning that caused this and spawn camping.

Bishop Steiner, on 18 May 2015 - 07:44 AM, said:

Only idiots and Homers still claim the TBR and SCR aren't OP.

Sorry, not an idiot or Homer. I consider the Dakka Wolf a bigger deal but recently realize a bigger CW issue, or I should saw a PWW issue to be fair to both sides, is logistics. No matter the long time discussions, debates and arguments on weapons and Mechs, logistics is playing a big part here.

[Maxx Blue]

Well, my experience is really only PUG games with other bads like myself so keep that in mind (my aim will apparently never be good enough to be more than slightly above average, as I've been playing for a couple years now.) I generally dislike playing multiple variants of the same mech with the same build. I like to try to build each variant differently just to keep from getting bored. This poilcy has been somewhat more difficult with many of my clan mechs than my IS mechs, and most of the time I end up with all lasers, or one or two big guns and the rest ERML's. In large part I feel I'm driven to these builds for a couple of reasons: limited weight for equipment, the difficulty of using Clan AC's, the general weakness of LRM's, and the reliance on a drop willing to charge and brawl to use SRM's consistently. I feel like those factors have lead to a general trend of laser boating on clan mechs, and could probably be addressed to some extent to encourage more diverse builds overall.

However, I think shifting the Clan meta away from lasers would still leave the SCR and TBR as top-tier mechs. While I would still like to see some of those changes, they wont affect the SCR/TBR dominance. They both have the ability to boat at least four missile packs, and both could mount at least one large AC if they became viable. The TBR could run dual 5's or maybe dual 10's or triple 5's if they became good and you stripped off some arm armor. So, if you do buff some of the other Clan weapons to be as effective as clan lasers, you probably won't dethrone the SCR/TBR. Also, if you buff AC's at all, the Dire Whale is going to get worse. Sure they can be beaten, but they already manage to make Clan AC's work, and any buff is just going to make them more dominant as a clan assault.

That said, I think the things you can do to nerf the SCR/TBR in general would be the following: reduce torso twist angle, reduge agility in general, re-do hitboxes to make them easier to get torso shots on, lock more equipment on the omnipods, or maybe nerf their acceleration. I think any of those will help reign in these two chassis in general, no matter which weapon loadout is meta at the moment. I remeber when the TBR came out and was pretty much made of side-torso. It could still mount some awesome stuff (2xERPPC, 1xGauss, one or two JJ's), but it was pretty easy to pop their sides. I don't recall the SCR ever being particularly squishy, but it has that big billboard of an upper torso that could probably be used to make it less durable.

Heat and duration quirks on lasers should work right this second, but if Clan AC's or streaks or whatever becomes meta, the TBR/SCR will be right back into OP-land. I'd rather slow them down as a chassis rather than just as a laserboat.

Edited by Maxx Blue, 18 May 2015 - 10:20 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mirkk Defwode, on 18 May 2015 - 09:15 AM, said:

I agree, can't make everyone happy. But you can attempt to not piss everyone off to.

Admittedly this is a pretty volatile crowd.

Then they are doing fine. I'm not pissed off.

[Sjorpha]

IS quirk changes:

I agree with all of them except RVN 2X which didn't really need to be nerfed IMO, or at least not that much. All in all slight reductions was the right approach so people can keep playing their mechs for the role they got them, much better than the complete replacements that were done in the past.

9/10

Clan nerfs:

Nerfs were needed, but this was too severe against lasers and missed a few strong missile based builds. I like the direction of multiplying the penalty by number of hardpoints, because that balances boating, but 1.5 % per hardpoint would have been enough. The A left shoulder does need a little extra for the high mounts, but 9% would have been enough. I would also add a 1% cooldown penalty to missiles per hardpoint on the stormcrow. Also the omnipods that are identical across variants could have different penalties (like heat or range) to make them unique.

Also duration is an especially powerful modifier, because it works both as a raw DPS boost/penalty and concentrates/spreads damage, it is essentially two quirk in one and therefore duration quirks should generally be lower than other quirks. This could have been represented by making the penalties to lasers per HP 1% duration and 2% cooldown or heat, as an example.

TL:DR: Penalties per HP is a good idea in principle, but they should be less severe (totalling 3% rather than 6%), more varied in the effects, and also adress SCR missile boats.

3/10

Edited by Sjorpha, 18 May 2015 - 11:06 AM.

[Wildstreak]

Removing Speed Tweak makes as much sense as giving UrbanMechs Twist X.
"Yes, let's give a Mech with 360 degree torso twist the ability to spend 2500 GXP for more torso twist."

Wait a minute....

meteorol, on 18 May 2015 - 08:37 AM, said:

As long as someone can't make a post regarding balance without getting attacked from all sides because of the goddamn faction tag he has those discussions will lead nowhere.

One reason why I run with no tag.
They should disable faction tags on the forums, see what happens.

[Gyrok]

DaZur, on 18 May 2015 - 08:19 AM, said:

I dunno Bish... I'm obliged to wait until we actually have the opportunity to physically try/feel these quirk adjustments on the battlefield.

I've seen far too many wailing and gnashing of teeth as members pour over raw numbers, making clandestine prognostications of doom only to find out the math doesn't match the manifest.

... This has happened at least a dozen times here. I can wait.

The doomsday declarations were right the last time the CERLL hit 2.0 seconds...this nerf will put the beam duration at 1.95.

Somehow doing that to all lasers is less bad than doing it to just one though I suppose...?

[Templar Dane]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 May 2015 - 07:44 AM, said:

The TBR and SCR DID need to be reigned in. (but then, so do certain IS builds, more on that later)


While it can add up to a pretty ridiculous number, seems to me that only really happens if..... you insist on laserboating everything. It's certainly the easiest builds to play with. And no one in their right mind would argue Clan ACs don't need some love (which is supposedly coming, but should have been implemented first). So It's not quite the End of Days, some are forecasting for those Mechs, unless you insist on laserboating. But it's still the wrong nerf, and overdone.

But they should have hit the Agility and maybe removed the Speed Tweak bonus from the chassis, instead of this. (Of course, I have been cussed at for saying this for over 6 months..yet now some of those who cussed me are begging for these nerfs instead, lol) And then, possibly hit some individual pods, or not have the pods Quirks stack to begin with. (Aka, your bonus or nerf for the LT should not affect your weapons in the RA, and vice versa). Sadly, that would take time and effort, and thus.... won't happen.

BUT...........

Truly to me the issue is...how tiny the changes to the STK-4N and FS9s are, compared to Clan Mechs. a whopping 2.5% reduction to cooldown and such on the FS9, while ignoring it's real issue (worst hitreg in the game, combined with great hitboxes, speed, jumping and DPS potential) 2.5% reductions to the important stuff (cooldown and heat) on the STK-4N will barely make a difference.

And this ignores mechs like the Huginn altogether (funny how much Clanners still cry over the DRG-1N, when I'd rather face one of those, then the SRM DPS of a Huginn mixed with it's intermittently wonky Light Mech hitreg), along with the other overquirked IS Mechs (though when people QQ over a HBK-4J, I gotta laugh, as LRMs still pretty much only regularly kill bads, and maybe it says more about how Comps and other high Elos players have gotten away from using AMS, cover, Target Derp Modules, etc).

Only idiots and Homers still claim the TBR and SCR aren't OP. But even with the stock pods, seems like they might be getting hit a little too hard. Laughable, that Russ's pet mechanic to fight this, GH has been so totally circumvented, that he has to go QuirkNerf Wild on stuff. Even worse, seems to be the quirk imbalance, and the severity difference between IS and Clan OP MetaMechs in this patch. And how many Clan Underperfomers are still largely laughable in their quirks (Nova got over-armored, but otherwise is MEH, SMNs and Adders are still BAD, etc)

Just my 2cts, as someone who regularly plays accts for BOTH factions.

I would be happy to have your input, but let's try to minimize the melodrama, as my hope is to get Russ to look at this thread, and not just ignore it because of some people whining like Teenage Girls who parents aren't getting them the new Iphone. Thanks!

There was a discussion lately about how some of the most competitive groups in this game joined the clanners for the Tukayyid, and how PGI blatantly stated that the clans won 52% of all engagements.

How many of those mechs were stormcrows and timberwolves? The lion's share.

I think 52% is pretty damn fair, especially considering the aforementioned competitive groups that joined clans just before it started.

All that and it's not like clanners are suddenly going to use bad mechs, they're just going to stuff as many Hellbringers as possible into dropdecks and/or in normal matches they're just going to bring actual good mechs (aka IS mechs).

Clanners have 13 mechs to choose from. Two just got heavily nerfed. As it stands there will be one good heavy, and one good assault. The mediums suck, the lights suck.

IS have 36 mechs to choose from, and how many of those are over-quirked?

Incremental changes my ass.

[Eider]

Still top tier mechs, hold the waterfalls. Everyone knows strek crow was the in thing atm anyway.

[Ghogiel]

Best way to get people to buy the EBJ and SHC is to nerf the TBR and SCR.

FS9 is getting dialed back so the ACH can be the new meta light.

Either that or people will just buy less when they get cynical enough

[Bilbo]

Wildstreak, on 18 May 2015 - 11:26 AM, said:

Removing Speed Tweak makes as much sense as giving UrbanMechs Twist X.
"Yes, let's give a Mech with 360 degree torso twist the ability to spend 2500 GXP for more torso twist."

Wait a minute....


One reason why I run with no tag.
They should disable faction tags on the forums, see what happens.

The poster would assume a bias, start their post by asking if the individual pilots the mech/uses the weapon himself, then proceed to berate their pov before bothering to get an answer.

[CDLord HHGD]

Are the nerfs too drastic? Maybe. I haven't played in almost two months now so when I get back in the saddle, I won't be a very good litmus test for them.

Is this part of the cycle? Yep. Over nerf, compensate, test against the game, recompensate, retest.... It's a never ending cycle and I am sure we haven't see the last of it.

[Mystere]

lordtzar, on 18 May 2015 - 11:27 AM, said:

All that and it's not like clanners are suddenly going to use bad mechs, they're just going to stuff as many Hellbringers as possible into dropdecks and/or in normal matches they're just going to bring actual good mechs (aka IS mechs).

Yep. On stand by now are 3 Hellbringers and an Ice Ferret-Prime. I've been raising hell too over the weekend using those same Hellbringers on the solo queue.

Edited by Mystere, 18 May 2015 - 11:44 AM.

[Apnu]

TBR and SCR are a perfect storm of OP.

First they have great body shapes for this game. They aren't square like the JM6 or SMN, so they've got a geometry advantage.

Second they happen to be the maximum weight for their class, so compared to every other mech in their class, they can tank the most armor compared to their peers.

Third they have built in clan tech. They get 2 torso crit. XL engines, they get 7 slot ES and FF, they get 2 slot DHS. Internally, they're more efficient than any IS mech. Yes engines are locked, for lights that's a disadvantage, but for heavies its a big advantage. The TBR moves at 89.1 KPH with speed tweak, the Orion can never go that fast, and you have to drop to a QKD or DHG to get a heavy that moves that fast.

Fourth, they get clan weapons. There's a lot of debate if clan weapons are balanced compared to IS weapons, but the truth is, they have greater range (energy), lighter weapons (ACs), better damage (ERPPC), get more ammo per ton (ACs), and/or tech the IS just doesn't have (LB20s, SSRM6 and so on). Yes there's more heat, but they can pack more DHS than IS can.

Fifth, compared to the IS, there is only a handful of clan mechs to pick. So the meta choice is more glaring with clans than it is with IS. Well except for the STK-4N and the FS9 in CW, but those got hit with the nerf bat too.

People forget this confluence of events when looking at these mechs.

MWO has a lot of power gamers in it. Battletech in general, seems to attract power gamers, I've met plenty of them at the hobby shop. Power gamers here are the meta cheese hounds. They'll look for any possible advantage, no matter how small (The WVR-7K is less than the GRF-3M because of a 5% quirk difference, though they can both pack the same SRM alpha potential -- 6xSRM6 vs 4xSRM4), so they'll pick the TBR and SCR every day, all day and pat themselves on the back for it. Its the kind of gamer they are, love it or hate it, you have to live with it here.

So while clan players are crying bitter tears over 3% and 6% nerfs, vs about a 5% reduction in quirks for the IS mechs: STK-4N, RVN-2X, FS9-A/H/S, they're forgetting all the advantages they get built into clan tech that all clan mechs share.

And they're also forgetting that PGI has been telegraphing this for months. Whining about it now is just silly. (Insert Arthur Dent, "the plans have been in the planning office for months" joke here. I for one am going to wear a furry hat and think of Huns)

[Templar Dane]

Apnu, on 18 May 2015 - 11:44 AM, said:

So while clan players are crying bitter tears over 3% and 6% nerfs, vs about a 5% reduction in quirks for the IS mechs: STK-4N, RVN-2X, FS9-A/H/S, they're forgetting all the advantages they get built into clan tech that all clan mechs share.

And they're also forgetting that PGI has been telegraphing this for months. Whining about it now is just silly. (Insert Arthur Dent, "the plans have been in the planning office for months" joke here. I for one am going to wear a furry hat and think of Huns)

I think you missed the bit about how the penalties on the omnipods stack. 3% + 5% etc etc etc gets added up to 25+% with some builds.

Mystere, on 18 May 2015 - 11:42 AM, said:

Yep. On stand by now are 3 Hellbringers and an Ice Ferret-Prime. I've been raising hell too over the weekend using those same Hellbringers on the solo queue.

I've been doing 4x mad dog since it's my favorite clan mech of all time.

Edited by lordtzar, 18 May 2015 - 11:48 AM.

[Fleeb the Mad]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 May 2015 - 07:44 AM, said:

But they should have hit the Agility and maybe removed the Speed Tweak bonus from the chassis, instead of this. (Of course, I have been cussed at for saying this for over 6 months..yet now some of those who cussed me are begging for these nerfs instead, lol) And then, possibly hit some individual pods, or not have the pods Quirks stack to begin with. (Aka, your bonus or nerf for the LT should not affect your weapons in the RA, and vice versa). Sadly, that would take time and effort, and thus.... won't happen.

I disagree with attempting to influence the chassis agility. The reason energy weapons are so popular on the Crow and the Timber Wolf is because they're light, efficient and both chassis have an abundance of hardpoints that makes boating them easy. They actually have to make sacrifices in order to mount a ballistic or missile payload, and those configurations aren't a problem.

Hitting the chassis for the sake of one type of build follows the same vein as the Victor nerfs, which equally hurt the brawler types that weren't part of the poptart problem. As much as people moan about the existence of quirks, it's the best way to tweak an individual chassis that has a convolution of good layout, durability and speed without having to use blanket tools like weapon or jump jet nerfs that also hurt things that weren't part of the problem.

Also, personally, I would have pulled the elite tier out of the pilot trees altogether. There's no good reason to give a blanket 10% speed or refire rate boost. But that is another discussion.

Quote

BUT...........

Truly to me the issue is...how tiny the changes to the STK-4N and FS9s are, compared to Clan Mechs. a whopping 2.5% reduction to cooldown and such on the FS9, while ignoring it's real issue (worst hitreg in the game, combined with great hitboxes, speed, jumping and DPS potential) 2.5% reductions to the important stuff (cooldown and heat) on the STK-4N will barely make a difference.

Let's talk specifics. The Stalker 4N's current power comes from the fact its various bonuses are additive with a specific weapon. All of them were reduced, and it adds up. Its large laser range bonus was reduced by half (5% + 5% vs 10% + 10%). Large Laser/Energy Heat Generation combined was changed from 20% to 15%, which is a direct hit to DPS, and its combined refire rate was changed from 20% to 15%.

All the little things add up to the quirk bonuses taking a sizeable hit. I'm not sure it's enough, but it's not negligible either.

As far as the FS9 goes, its quirk bonuses weren't particularly large to begin with. All of its quirk values were cut by a third, and some by half. I'm not convinced a pilot is going to feel the loss across every chassis, but a 10% heat generation hit on the FS9-S will be felt.

Personally I'm happier they take a more measured approach to this rather than, say, wiping out all the FS9's positive quirks and attempting to sift balance in the experimentation chaos that would result. I've looked at the numbers on the Clan nerfs and it's not actually as serious as people make it seem. In fact I'd argue that the Stalker got it worse, because that particular chassis is only good at one thing, while the TBR and the Crow have numerous fallback options to mitigate penalty stacking.

I actually hold out hope that hitting the laser builds on the two clan problem chassis will allow the laser durations to return to their original values.

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 May 2015 - 07:44 AM, said:

The TBR and SCR DID need to be reigned in. (but then, so do certain IS builds, more on that later)
Only idiots and Homers still claim the TBR and SCR aren't OP. But even with the stock pods, seems like they might be getting hit a little too hard. Laughable, that Russ's pet mechanic to fight this, GH has been so totally circumvented, that he has to go QuirkNerf Wild on stuff. Even worse, seems to be the quirk imbalance, and the severity difference between IS and Clan OP MetaMechs in this patch. And how many Clan Underperfomers are still largely laughable in their quirks (Nova got over-armored, but otherwise is MEH, SMNs and Adders are still BAD, etc)

Just my 2cts, as someone who regularly plays accts for BOTH factions.

Forum Warriors get it... but the devs don't...


Besides, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Russ and Co. say they were not going to do the nerfing thing to the TW and SC? Why the misdirection change of heart?

I just don't get their "logic." TW and SC are top performers, nerf balance their builds to make them less viable, however an unquirked Firestarter is still superior to the Jenner, yet still has ++positive++ quirks geared towards laser vomit?

Who's driving this thing and where are we going?

[Bobzilla]

If you Nerf an "op" mech based on current meta, it will still remain "op" and create a new meta.

If you Nerf the "op" meta mech, one will replace it as "op".

So either hbr or others will be "op" if tbr/scr were just the best meta mechs. Or the meta will change because they are "op" but the Nerf was aimed at the current meta.

What's probably going to happen is players will give up on clans in cw causing IS to dominate but wait forever til cw is effectively dead, and the tbr/scr will dominate the other modes and remain "op" with continued calls to Nerf more. In a year or so, they will undo the Nerfs or change them to something non meta centric.

That's just my prediction.