172 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Yokaiko, on 18 May 2015 - 04:24 PM, said:

So do you think got a second the inner sphere doesn't laser vomit as bad as clans?

Seriously, my drop deck forever was fs9, thud thud Dragon, more lasers then my clan deck for reference.

so did you actually read the OP, where I specifically said the issue is the Clans appear to be getting hammered when the nerfs on the IS mechs are laughable at best? Or are you just cherry picking for sake of argument?

[Elizander]

As I said a few times before, pods should not penalize anything simply because they are used. The penalty should apply per hard-point used on the mech's final build rather than a blanket penalty. To put it simply, the game needs to be a bit smarter in checking which would take work on PGI's part. If you mount a 6 energy pod but only use 2 of those energy slots, I do not think you should get the full penalty. Likewise some pods might have no penalty at all until you use more than (x) hardpoints.

[xWiredx]

The PGI approach to quirks is far beyond what it originally sounded like it would be, and at this point they're trying to use them for more than just a mechanism to help balance. They're trying to use them as the balance and it's ending up a pretty big mess.

I thought the original point was to add some individual flavor to each variant while imposing small bonuses for balance. On many they went against the idea of the mech, and in many ways they either buffed or nerfed too hard.

The fact that quirk bonuses stack is just a bad idea. So let's use a simple example here. Stalker 4N gets +10% range for large lasers AND +10% for all energy weapons for a 20% boost to a large laser's range. Instead of 20%, why don't they calculate it so the basic energy quirk's 10% gets an extra 10% when applied to the specific weapon (in other words, 10+1% for large lasers). I think that would tone things down back to an acceptable level.

Here's what has really disturbed me about the quirks: it brings mechs that have obvious flaws and were not particularly amazing in lore to a level where they can compete against clan mechs that were supposed to completely outclass their IS counterparts. I realize the need for balance, but at some point you're also ruining the platform the game stands on. We're fans, not just consumers, and as fans we have a hard time believing that a Dragon can make a Hellbringer run for cover or that a Stormcrow can tear apart a fresh Atlas.

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 May 2015 - 07:49 AM, said:

Eh, I sometimes have Russ's ear, on very limited things, and apparently very sporadically.

When Russ has his mind made up, he ignores me as much as he does everyone else. There have been things I have been after him about for over a year that he doesn't even respond to at all.

This is appropriate reaction you should have (and total irony aside from the whole matter):

[Yokaiko]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 May 2015 - 04:43 PM, said:

so did you actually read the OP, where I specifically said the issue is the Clans appear to be getting hammered when the nerfs on the IS mechs are laughable at best? Or are you just cherry picking for sake of argument?

No I quoted the entire post, didn't go though 5 pages to find the is rebuttle

[zolop]

Night Thastus, on 18 May 2015 - 08:07 AM, said:

This whole conversation wouldn't even be happening if they could just fix the heat problem in the first place.
1: Remove ghost heat
2: Drop the heat cap back down to lore values (I believe it was 30, and that heatsinks didn't add to this)
3: Make it so when running hot, several penalties occur. (Flickering/fuzzy HUD, ghost blips on radar, mech slows down, actuators slow down, torso slows down, ammo cooks off, electronics fail, weapon cooldowns increase, etc) (These occur at different levels of heat, getting worse as your heat nears the cap)

Congratulations. You've just fixed the whole heat problem, no need for nerfs to Clan, and no real need for buffs to IS builds either. Since IS builds aren't "ER" and generally run cooler, they can have an advantage without the need for quirks. Perhaps quirks could still exist, but play a much more minor role. Plus, now with a lower heat cap, giant alpha's wouldn't be possible, so the confusing and strange ghost heat mechanic wouldn't need to exist and upset newer players.

They just should have done this in the first place, I know convergence with lots of weapons is an issue too, so something in combination with this? Plus the penalties would add some immersion into the game,

Night Thastus, on 18 May 2015 - 08:07 AM, said:

"(Flickering/fuzzy HUD, ghost blips on radar, mech slows down, actuators slow down, torso slows down, ammo cooks off, electronics fail, weapon cooldowns increase, etc) (These occur at different levels of heat, getting worse as your heat nears the cap)
"

Edited by zolop, 18 May 2015 - 06:44 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Yokaiko, on 18 May 2015 - 06:16 PM, said:

No I quoted the entire post, didn't go though 5 pages to find the is rebuttle

Don't need to read 5 pages. Just reading the actual OP of the entire thread might help.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

They need to put a bullet into the skull of the power creep. Many variants need nerfs at the moment. IS autocannon play is just silly on some variants, the thunderwub is just as scary as ever, and the cauldron born will need some starting nerfs as well.

Overall they need to nerf lasers and IS autocannons (somewhat) while killing some of the overperked mechs, make it so it takes more than 5 seconds to bring down a hundred tonner.

[Bishop Steiner]

Blueduck, on 18 May 2015 - 06:48 PM, said:

They need to put a bullet into the skull of the power creep. Many variants need nerfs at the moment. IS autocannon play is just silly on some variants, the thunderwub is just as scary as ever, and the cauldron born will need some starting nerfs as well.

Overall they need to nerf lasers and IS autocannons (somewhat) while killing some of the overperked mechs, make it so it takes more than 5 seconds to bring down a hundred tonner.

IS ACs are fine. C-UACs need help. It's the overquirking if anything that might makes IA_ACs over the top, yet you might notice, they are in no way the Meta, atm?

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

I don't know my friend, I was just cored in around 10 seconds by a single Jaegar in my Timberwolf. Twisting did not do much and his original burst before I even figured out where he was got me into the orange. Granted I was in a bad position but the screenshake made it so I couldn't respond and we were on sulfurous so he could just keep it up all day where I couldn't.

I think the cannon perks are more of the problem but I would almost favor just taking the clan burst and cutting the shots in half for IS.

Edited by Blueduck, 18 May 2015 - 06:54 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Blueduck, on 18 May 2015 - 06:52 PM, said:

I don't know my friend, I was just cored in around 10 seconds by a single Jaegar in my Timberwolf. Granted I was in a bad position but the screenshake made it so I couldn't respond and we were on sulfurous so he could just keep it up all day where I couldn't.

I think the cannon perks are more of the problem but I would almost favor just taking the clan burst and cutting the shots in half.

never going to see me support that, I'm afraid. One of the few things PGI did right in CB was really diversifying the feel and mechanics of weapons. Having everything end up some form or another of DPS is not only boring, but becomes a major nerf to a mech like the Hunchback or Centurion that only survives as long as it can twist and hide that torso or arm.

And I'm not trying to bash you, but very few people complain about Jagers, and those that do are usually about the GaussJagers. IDK, I maybe since the screenshake doesn't actually affect your reticle, I just ignore it and kill the things, lol.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

Fair point, but honestly the gauss never really bothered me very much. I can respond to that, the autocannons are just insane.

Its the combination of heat efficiency, continuous suppressive fire, pin point damage, and insta firing that does it for me.

I've never been able to knock a good gauss sniper; its a hard weapon to use.

[Deathlike]

If you're losing to a dakka Jager, it's probably because you're in its FOV for waaaaaay too long.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

True, but isn't the point of the autocannon supposed to be a heat efficient alternative to the laser. It shouldn't make me run for cover the second I see an cannon heavy variant. It is supposed to be able to keep firing and support friends not completely dominate the battlefield by itself.

Again, just my view.

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 18 May 2015 - 06:58 PM, said:

If you're losing to a dakka Jager, it's probably because you're in its FOV for waaaaaay too long.

When I'm in a light or medium or don't twist well, sometimes the 3x UACJager can hurt me good. But that's usually on me for not having better awareness. I'd kill to have the DakkaJager more useful tbh, as I haven't touched my Jagers more than a handful of times since the last stat reset. I think I have tried them a few times to test quirks, but was generally unimpressed. Same with my Cataphracts. real shame to see just stalwarts of Beta be utterly MEH due to powercreep. Even the old BoomJager is pretty weak in the current environ.

Blueduck, on 18 May 2015 - 07:01 PM, said:

True, but isn't the point of the autocannon supposed to be a heat efficient alternative to the laser. It shouldn't make me run for cover the second I see an cannon heavy variant. It is supposed to be able to keep firing and support friends not completely dominate the battlefield by itself.

Again, just my view.

I honestly never see them do so, unless it's a DakkaWolf or to a lesser degree, DakkaKrab.

I do see some guys who are very good at taking advantage of the battle situation to lay out some decent hurt, but 1v1, a DakkaJager loses to most mechs, even those 15 tons lighter. I hunt them all day long in my Hunchy and Cents, unless they catch me at range, in the open. Then, the Jager tends to have my number.

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

Mirkk Defwode, on 18 May 2015 - 09:15 AM, said:

I agree, can't make everyone happy. But you can attempt to not piss everyone off to.

Admittedly this is a pretty volatile crowd.

The crowd can only facepalm so many times before it starts to wonder if after a year of clan/is "balancing" people begin to wonder if they have any idea as to what they're doing, or if they're doing it just to troll people like with the angry fist of God August 8th overnerf patch that took how long to resolve? Hardly anyone used ER LG's then, and still people complained, and there were more nerfs... and it's like we've come full circle and not a damned thing was learned last year, and they're repeating the same "overnerf dem lazorz" cycle again.

The people aren't so much a volatile crowd as they are wondering why we're coming full circle back to bad idea land. We repeated 3050, lets not repeat 2014, m'kay?

[SaltBeef]

Would a coulda.......

Do not understand why they did not work the clan auto cannons ,...most of us Clanners would have changed our builds for decent performing AC,s and had a lot less Laser builds. NOW EVEN IF THEY REWORKED THEM after the patch Nobody is going to load Energy into a AC build. Yet more restrictions for Clan mechs.

Edited by SaltBeef, 18 May 2015 - 08:57 PM.

[Kristian Radoulov]

Blueduck, on 18 May 2015 - 06:57 PM, said:

I've never been able to knock a good gauss sniper; its a hard weapon to use.

Edited by Kristian Radoulov, 18 May 2015 - 09:20 PM.

[Chrome Magnus]

I agree that the nerfs are overdone/wouldn't be as bad if they had already buffed AC's. That said I don't get why folks keep saying the Stalker is just getting a 2.5% nerf. It's taking a 10% range hit and 5% cooldown/heatgen penalties if they only run LL's like everyone who's cried for a nerf claims. Even the ones that mix it up a bit still take a 5% hit to at least a trio of LL's. No, it's not as bad as it can be for folks who want to boat Clasers but lets be real here.

Here's to hoping they already plan to dial it back to 2% per or something.

[Doktor Schmerz]

Kristian Radoulov, on 18 May 2015 - 08:01 AM, said:

Ok first I want to address the first problem. The perception that TBR and SCR are OP. By and large this comes about as a result of these mechs being dominant in CW drop decks.

This is the first fallacy that needs to be addressed. High representation does not equal OP, it simple means that is the best choice clan players have.

Why is this the case? Simple: because the vast majority of clan mechs don't have endo and FF by default while the TBR and SCR do. They come optimized out of the box which makes they a no-brainer when it comes to choosing mechs for competitive play.

The next thing to address is why clan players are going with laser vomit builds in the first place. Once again the answer is also rather simple: our other weapons systems are not attractive alternatives. LRMs are binary in nature (either work or they don't), SRMs require an aggressive playstyle that has many drawbacks and is harder to execute as a group than poke trading. Clan ballistics are less effective than their IS counterparts and when coupled with clan DHS being locked, naturally force clan mechs AWAY from ballistics.

IF PGI unlocked endo/FF/engines/heatsinks on clan mechs, you would see a TON more variety and the perception that the SCR and TBR are OP would rescind. IF PGI updates clan ballistics along with unlocked heat sinks you would see less laser vomit.

That's it for the clan side of things, I will next post about the IS side of things.

No it wouldn't crows hit reg is broken.

You talk about the "IS side" in a later post as well. but don't show any objectivity. Your arguments are biased. Every part of the clan weaponry is somewhat superior than IS. This is undoubtedly true, clan mechs get better damage, lower weight or what ever else. In exhange for that yes there are some drawbacks, more damage = longer beam duration, etc but is never really that much of a draw back. Don't talk about ****** balistics, clan Gauss Rifles are 3 tons less weight, your UAC/2's provide plenty of dakka.

Nothing is more frustrating than getting smoked in an assault mech by a crow because the hit reg is broken or losing to a T-wolf who laser vomits all over you that is 20 tons less weight in a 1v1. If you want players to still enjoy the game, these issues needed to be fixed. Obviously they aren't going to wait until they rework the entire model for the crows or hit registration issues in general, so these are band ****.

As for the PPC, that seems to be the PPC mechanics in general not ****** hit reg from firestarters.

Can we also recognize that IS rarely get to use their LRMs due to the fact that clan mechs have actual decent mechs that have ECM? Hellbringers for c-bills changed the dynamic of almost every match CW or otherwise.

I tire of hearing the clans whine about any rebalancing, if you have an argument, make it valid and logic based.