172 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

The TBR and SCR DID need to be reigned in. (but then, so do certain IS builds, more on that later)


While it can add up to a pretty ridiculous number, seems to me that only really happens if..... you insist on laserboating everything. It's certainly the easiest builds to play with. And no one in their right mind would argue Clan ACs don't need some love (which is supposedly coming, but should have been implemented first). So It's not quite the End of Days, some are forecasting for those Mechs, unless you insist on laserboating. But it's still the wrong nerf, and overdone.

But they should have hit the Agility and maybe removed the Speed Tweak bonus from the chassis, instead of this. (Of course, I have been cussed at for saying this for over 6 months..yet now some of those who cussed me are begging for these nerfs instead, lol) And then, possibly hit some individual pods, or not have the pods Quirks stack to begin with. (Aka, your bonus or nerf for the LT should not affect your weapons in the RA, and vice versa). Sadly, that would take time and effort, and thus.... won't happen.

BUT...........

Truly to me the issue is...how tiny the changes to the STK-4N and FS9s are, compared to Clan Mechs. a whopping 2.5% reduction to cooldown and such on the FS9, while ignoring it's real issue (worst hitreg in the game, combined with great hitboxes, speed, jumping and DPS potential) 2.5% reductions to the important stuff (cooldown and heat) on the STK-4N will barely make a difference.

And this ignores mechs like the Huginn altogether (funny how much Clanners still cry over the DRG-1N, when I'd rather face one of those, then the SRM DPS of a Huginn mixed with it's intermittently wonky Light Mech hitreg), along with the other overquirked IS Mechs (though when people QQ over a HBK-4J, I gotta laugh, as LRMs still pretty much only regularly kill bads, and maybe it says more about how Comps and other high Elos players have gotten away from using AMS, cover, Target Derp Modules, etc).

Only idiots and Homers still claim the TBR and SCR aren't OP. But even with the stock pods, seems like they might be getting hit a little too hard. Laughable, that Russ's pet mechanic to fight this, GH has been so totally circumvented, that he has to go QuirkNerf Wild on stuff. Even worse, seems to be the quirk imbalance, and the severity difference between IS and Clan OP MetaMechs in this patch. And how many Clan Underperfomers are still largely laughable in their quirks (Nova got over-armored, but otherwise is MEH, SMNs and Adders are still BAD, etc)

Just my 2cts, as someone who regularly plays accts for BOTH factions.

I would be happy to have your input, but let's try to minimize the melodrama, as my hope is to get Russ to look at this thread, and not just ignore it because of some people whining like Teenage Girls who parents aren't getting them the new Iphone. Thanks!

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 18 May 2015 - 07:50 AM.

[Kristian Radoulov]

Bishop, you have Russ's ear on Twitter. I have a lot to say, but for right now I'm just saving this spot and will be editing as I go. I want to have a real conversation with you about what is happening.

Edited by Kristian Radoulov, 18 May 2015 - 07:48 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Kristian Radoulov, on 18 May 2015 - 07:48 AM, said:

Bishop, you have Russ's ear on Twitter. I have a lot to say, but for right now I'm just saving this spot and will be editing as I go. I want to have a real conversation with you about what is happening.

Eh, I sometimes have Russ's ear, on very limited things, and apparently very sporadically.

When Russ has his mind made up, he ignores me as much as he does everyone else. There have been things I have been after him about for over a year that he doesn't even respond to at all.

[Kristian Radoulov]

I understand and I'm not expecting you to be able to change anything. Hold on while I start to type stuff out.

[Fate 6]

Nova is a good mech rn (6ERML is powerful), Gargoyle is the best 80 tonner, and the Summoner still out performs the CTF and Grasshopper. Other than that, I agree with the OP. Nerfs were the the right idea but were gone about the wrong way

[Bishop Steiner]

Fate 6, on 18 May 2015 - 07:53 AM, said:

Nova is a good mech rn (6ERML is powerful), Gargoyle is the best 80 tonner, and the Summoner still outperforms the CTF and Grasshopper. Other than that, I agree with the OP. Nerfs were the the right idea but were gone about the wrong way

Different argument for a different post, so I won't lock horns with you about those specifics (here, LOL).

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 18 May 2015 - 07:56 AM.

[MechaBattler]

Ehhh. Considering they can out damage other mechs in their weight range. And it takes a quirked out Stalker with a ghost heat change to make up the difference on the IS side. I'd say their firepower needed to be addressed.

[Mirkk Defwode]

Ghost Heat was a mistake system to implement in the first place. Actually tuning the core heat mechanic would've been more beneficial overall.

I also agree that there are problems with the quirk system overall. I don't really like having specific weapon quirks - you're taking away from the end user's (us) ability to be creative and have different weapon loadouts or designs. Let us be snowflakes again without intentionally hamstringing ourselves. Weapon type, Energy, Ballistic, Missile, quirks are alright this gives flavor to the mech or points at it's intended purpose - which should be based in the lore...

[Bishop Steiner]

MechaBattler, on 18 May 2015 - 07:56 AM, said:

Ehhh. Considering they can out damage other mechs in their weight range. And it takes a quirked out Stalker with a ghost heat change to make up the difference on the IS side. I'd say their firepower needed to be addressed.

then address the weapons, if that is where the disparity lies. And the fact is the Stalker IS quirked, and thus, kind of an irrelevant argument. That kind of beam duration, is pretty fricking huge. Let's see how many Stalkers, Quirked or otherwise will be out there if they had a (up to) 27% increase to their beam duration.

We already saw the C-ERLL become near useless when they boosted it's beam to 2 seconds way back when, and they had to peel that back pretty fast.

[Flutterguy]

Did you really need to drag the Huginn into this? It just got promoted to second best Raven!

[Kristian Radoulov]

Ok first I want to address the first problem. The perception that TBR and SCR are OP. By and large this comes about as a result of these mechs being dominant in CW drop decks.

This is the first fallacy that needs to be addressed. High representation does not equal OP, it simple means that is the best choice clan players have.

Why is this the case? Simple: because the vast majority of clan mechs don't have endo and FF by default while the TBR and SCR do. They come optimized out of the box which makes they a no-brainer when it comes to choosing mechs for competitive play.

The next thing to address is why clan players are going with laser vomit builds in the first place. Once again the answer is also rather simple: our other weapons systems are not attractive alternatives. LRMs are binary in nature (either work or they don't), SRMs require an aggressive playstyle that has many drawbacks and is harder to execute as a group than poke trading. Clan ballistics are less effective than their IS counterparts and when coupled with clan DHS being locked, naturally force clan mechs AWAY from ballistics.

IF PGI unlocked endo/FF/engines/heatsinks on clan mechs, you would see a TON more variety and the perception that the SCR and TBR are OP would rescind. IF PGI updates clan ballistics along with unlocked heat sinks you would see less laser vomit.

That's it for the clan side of things, I will next post about the IS side of things.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mirkk Defwode, on 18 May 2015 - 07:57 AM, said:

Ghost Heat was a mistake system to implement in the first place. Actually tuning the core heat mechanic would've been more beneficial overall.

I also agree that there are problems with the quirk system overall. I don't really like having specific weapon quirks - you're taking away from the end user's (us) ability to be creative and have different weapon loadouts or designs. Let us be snowflakes again without intentionally hamstringing ourselves. Weapon type, Energy, Ballistic, Missile, quirks are alright this gives flavor to the mech or points at it's intended purpose - which should be based in the lore...

I'm fine with specific quirks, because those mechs were engineered from the ground up around specific weapon systems. They SHOULD perform better with those systems that some jury rigged weaponry. To me it's the degree of superiority. Many mechs are either overquirked period, or quirked with poor forethought (leading to boating) or quirked just plain wrong. And even the ones that are better thought out (most of the Hunchbacks nad Centurions) I feel the quirks should focus more on the General, with a smaller percent to the specific. So instead of say a 15% Ballistic and 15% AC10, for 30% with the stock gun, it should probably be 20% Ballistic and 10% AC10. But I do feel the stock weapon SHOULD be it's most efficient. But that quirks should never be such high percentages that they define the mech, and the meta, as they really are in many cases, now.

But again, different argument for a different day.

[MechaBattler]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 May 2015 - 07:59 AM, said:

then address the weapons, if that is where the disparity lies. And the fact is the Stalker IS quirked, and thus, kind of an irrelevant argument. That kind of beam duration, is pretty fricking huge. Let's see how many Stalkers, Quirked or otherwise will be out there if they had a (up to) 27% increase to their beam duration.

We already saw the C-ERLL become near useless when they boosted it's beam to 2 seconds way back when, and they had to peel that back pretty fast.

Address the weapons how? I think there would be an even bigger uproar if they nerfed the weapons. Of course the Stalker was quirked. How was it to compete when it can just be outranged and it's has the speed and agility of an assault versus a mech 10 tons lighter with more speed and agility than even it's own class warrants. : / =

[Bishop Steiner]

Kristian Radoulov, on 18 May 2015 - 08:01 AM, said:

Ok first I want to address the first problem. The perception that TBR and SCR are OP. By and large this comes about as a result of these mechs being dominant in CW drop decks.

Actually, they were considered OP before CW even. Just as a side point. CW has simply reinforced that. Toe to toe, without insane quirks, no Medium or Heavy is equal, and as tactically versatile as the TBR and SCR, but please do continue, as you are presenting well reasoned arguments.

[Bishop Steiner]

Grisbane, on 18 May 2015 - 08:05 AM, said:

1, apparently the clanners need to revisit the quirks page, the values have changed, right now the only heavy quirk is on the Timber -a Left torso.
2 the nerfs on the OP's math is bad, FS-9S got a 5% nerf to heat and range as did the stlker and other than the Timber-a's eft torso.. they are the heaviest quirks.. so can we finally get the clanners to shut up and quit whning?

really, so 10% reduced to 7.5% is 5% percent now? Interesting?

Also way to ignore the most pressing points, that Clans do need viable and competitive alternatives to Energy,and preferably before nerfing the laser effectiveness, and that the wrong facets are as usual, being focused on, in the nerfs.

Also thank you so much for keeping it mature and objective.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 18 May 2015 - 08:09 AM.

[Night Thastus]

This whole conversation wouldn't even be happening if they could just fix the heat problem in the first place.
1: Remove ghost heat
2: Drop the heat cap back down to lore values (I believe it was 30, and that heatsinks didn't add to this)
3: Make it so when running hot, several penalties occur. (Flickering/fuzzy HUD, ghost blips on radar, mech slows down, actuators slow down, torso slows down, ammo cooks off, electronics fail, weapon cooldowns increase, etc) (These occur at different levels of heat, getting worse as your heat nears the cap)

Congratulations. You've just fixed the whole heat problem, no need for nerfs to Clan, and no real need for buffs to IS builds either. Since IS builds aren't "ER" and generally run cooler, they can have an advantage without the need for quirks. Perhaps quirks could still exist, but play a much more minor role. Plus, now with a lower heat cap, giant alpha's wouldn't be possible, so the confusing and strange ghost heat mechanic wouldn't need to exist and upset newer players.

Edited by Night Thastus, 18 May 2015 - 08:09 AM.

[Phlinger]

The nerf is too late actually. It should have been handled prior to the massive inflation of IS mech quirks. Now PGI will have a ton of back tracking to get everything balanced again, because the Stormcrow and Timberwolf being overpowered is what drove the IS quirk inflation to begin with.

Also, think of all the blanket nerfs that Clan Tech has received under the reign of the Stomrcrow and Timberwolf. My Summoner is still reeling from those.

[Bishop Steiner]

Night Thastus, on 18 May 2015 - 08:07 AM, said:

This whole conversation wouldn't even be happening if they could just fix the heat problem in the first place.
1: Remove ghost heat
2: Drop the heat cap back down to lore values (I believe it was 30, and that heatsinks didn't add to this)
3: Make it so when running hot, several penalties occur. (Flickering/fuzzy HUD, ghost blips on radar, mech slows down, actuators slow down, torso slows down, ammo cooks off, electronics fail, weapon cooldowns increase, etc) (These occur at different levels of heat, getting worse as your heat nears the cap)

Congratulations. You've just fixed the whole heat problem, no need for nerfs to Clan, and no real need for buffs to IS builds either. Since IS builds aren't "ER" and generally run cooler, they can have an advantage without the need for quirks. Perhaps quirks could still exist, but play a much more minor role. Plus, now with a lower heat cap, giant alpha's wouldn't be possible, so the confusing and strange ghost heat mechanic wouldn't need to exist and upset newer players.

And this is why we can't have a good conversation. You may well be right, but IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN; WILL NEVER HAPPEN SO DERAILING EVERYTHING WISHING FOR AVALON IS POINTLESS.

So really, now let's focus on what we DO have, and what might reasonably be addressed?

[Joseph Mallan]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 May 2015 - 07:49 AM, said:

Eh, I sometimes have Russ's ear, on very limited things, and apparently very sporadically.

When Russ has his mind made up, he ignores me as much as he does everyone else. There have been things I have been after him about for over a year that he doesn't even respond to at all.

Thats sorta the point of making up your mind though Bish. Its actually a necessary trait to getting things done.

[meteorol]

The issue is that this will kill build diversity even more.

Before those nerfs, we had like... 2lpl+ 3/4 erml; 5 erml+ gauss; 2lpl+ Gauss; 4ASrm6 (or ssrm)+ backup lasers.

Longrange trading builds (especially in CW which no one plays) and guys doing whatever they want and not what is best (lrms,uacs) aside, those were the builds you really frequently saw.

Now the first two build will be hit brutally by this nerf. Some guys hope that people will now use more different builds but... Guys who played with nothing but the "best" builds before won't magically start slapping uacs on their timberwolfs. Because uacs suck *ss. They won't use lrms, because they suck even harder.

They will use the few builds that are still viable after those nerfs. Nerfs causing people to avoid certain hardpoints really kills build diversity even more than the screwed clan weapon balance already does.

Edited by meteorol, 18 May 2015 - 08:13 AM.