98 replies to this topic

[jlawsl]

They need to fix those two mech's hit boxes, plain and simple. That and the timber wolf needs a size increase. Do those two things, then take away any nerfs as they will be as vulnerable as any other mech their size. But then, all of the clan whiners would get on and throw a fit about how they paid their hard earned money to play with their insta-win button.

It seems like they are only ok with IS quirks as long as they don't bring them in line with anything clan. IS quirks only exist, it seems, to keep people playing with the thought that they have balance, when really, clan players will whine and complain if a mech even comes close to their Timberwolf/Stormcrow spam levels. If it does, its op and needs go get nerfed.

They are ok with the fact that now, the 30 tons of 6 LLs on a Stalker could carry are now at a disadvantage instead of on par with 24 tons of 4 LPLs on clan mechs. No, can't have that. Can't have something that everyone plays, that gives them a run for their money, nope, too OP. And so it has been brought down to a kind of bleh range of quirks.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mcgral18, on 18 May 2015 - 01:27 PM, said:

So, make a unbearably hot loadout...15% hotter?


If you say so. Alpha was already ~50%. Now 60%.

But you have to wait an extra half second between shots so it cools down more, and I don't think it will work out that way, because with a longer duration you are building heat over a greater amount of time, so dissipating more as you go as well.

[omessiaho]

Eider, on 18 May 2015 - 01:24 PM, said:

Yes because a mech should be l33t level without being mastered.

I play for fun, killing the enemy is icing on the cake. My icing was taken away and I'm told if I spend 40ish million space bucks and devote hours of my time I can get it back. I'm told this because some other people got too much icing or something, its all just a bit strange. I don't care about l33t mechs or meta, I just want my damn icing back!

[Jman5]

Skarlock, on 18 May 2015 - 01:31 PM, said:

I'm probably just going to go with a gauss rifle instead of pure lasers for my builds. The hardest hit weapon will be the clan er large laser though IMO, so I think most people would be best off avoiding it if they can, sticking with lpl builds instead.

Yup there are lots of ways to play. All I was trying to point out is that laser heavy builds will still be quite potent on the stormcrow come Tuesday. You'll just have to monkey around a little with your build.

If the ER large laser beam duration seems too long for your comfort, it's not much of a stretch to fit a Large Pulse Laser in its place.

[jlawsl]

Wintersdark, on 18 May 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:

its not a minor drop in DPs, its a huge drop. 9.6 to 8.2!

The point is that now 6 ERML's have the same DPS as 5 used to.

The irony though is that this nerf INCREASED clan alpha strike ability. Same DPs, but firing 6 erml instead of 5.

Lol

OH NO! One whole ton for 7 damage! For shame, run for the hills! So, it doesn't bother you that 5 IS medium lasers only put out 6.4 DPS and 135 meters less? And to get close to the same DPS with 5 IS MLs at the same range, it would need a 15% cool down quirk for 9.8 DPS and a +50% range bonus. The DPS for cooldown is on some mechs, but that range isn't, except on a locust that can carry two medium lasers that is specifically quirked for its mighty weapons and with a lvl5 module. But, that was a known fact and why the status quo had to remain the same, more range, more dps, less tonnage at the sacrifice of a little more heat. I don't get what the big deal is. So you have to carry 6 tons, for 6 weapons for a 42 damage alpha, compare to a 30 points of alpha damage at 2/3s of the range. So nerfed.

[Hit the Deck]

It already crossed my mind that the nerf will actually increase the heat efficiency but it never occurred to me to add even more laser to circumvent the situation. I guess I'll look more into it. Thanks for the pointer!

[Jman5]

omessiaho, on 18 May 2015 - 01:46 PM, said:

I play for fun, killing the enemy is icing on the cake. My icing was taken away and I'm told if I spend 40ish million space bucks and devote hours of my time I can get it back. I'm told this because some other people got too much icing or something, its all just a bit strange. I don't care about l33t mechs or meta, I just want my damn icing back!

You're misunderstanding. Your mechs are going to be altered exactly the same as everyone's else it's just the numbers are going to be different than the ones I provided. The only difference is that I included additive modifiers that most players here have unlocked. These changes do not hurt you any worse than anyone else.

[Chagatay]

Jman5, on 18 May 2015 - 01:00 PM, said:

This weekend there has been much crying and gnashing of teeth over the upcoming quirk nerfs to various mechs. Many bemoaned the death of lasers and Clans!

Well I took a brief look at the numbers and with the help of metamechs I did a little comparison to see whats in store for the stormcrow laser vomit. (spoiler: you're going to be fine)

For the purpose of this demonstration I have borrowed one of Gman's builds from his metamech website.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2b6fbded10b92e0

• +18% cooldown increase
  
• +18% beam Duration

To put that in perspective

• ER medium Laser duration goes from 1.15s -> 1.357s

Assuming you're elited and have level 5 cooldown modules:

• ER medium laser Cooldown goes from 2.49s -> 3.03s

• DPS of an ER ML with wep modules goes from 1.92 -> 1.6

• Heat Per second goes from: 1.65 -> 1.367

x5 ML Goes from 9.6 DPS/8.2 HPS -> 8 DPS/6.8 HPS





So drop 1 heatsink and add a 6th medium lasers and its business as usual

x6 ML with new values = 9.6 DPS / 8.2 HPS

So something like this instead:

TL;DR add an extra medium laser to your Stormcrow laser builds, switch a few omnipods around, and it's business as usual.

Still doesn't change the fact that your face time is going to be significantly longer and your cooldown will be significantly longer. Either way, it has been interesting to read the forums of late. So much doom and gloom.

Not to worry though, I have plenty of alternate mechs to play. Probably should pick up Mr. Gargles and the Mad Dog at some point (they need to have one of those 50% mechbay sales). The actual solution is obvious everyone will just switch to Hellbringers. Enjoy your new mono-culture.

Edited by Chagatay, 18 May 2015 - 01:59 PM.

[Deathlike]

Jman5, on 18 May 2015 - 01:00 PM, said:

This weekend there has been much crying and gnashing of teeth over the upcoming quirk nerfs to various mechs. Many bemoaned the death of lasers and Clans!

Well I took a brief look at the numbers and with the help of metamechs I did a little comparison to see whats in store for the stormcrow laser vomit. (spoiler: you're going to be fine)

For the purpose of this demonstration I have borrowed one of Gman's builds from his metamech website.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2b6fbded10b92e0

• +18% cooldown increase
  
• +18% beam Duration

To put that in perspective

• ER medium Laser duration goes from 1.15s -> 1.357s

Assuming you're elited and have level 5 cooldown modules:

• ER medium laser Cooldown goes from 2.49s -> 3.03s

• DPS of an ER ML with wep modules goes from 1.92 -> 1.6

• Heat Per second goes from: 1.65 -> 1.367

x5 ML Goes from 9.6 DPS/8.2 HPS -> 8 DPS/6.8 HPS




So drop 1 heatsink and add a 6th medium lasers and its business as usual

x6 ML with new values = 9.6 DPS / 8.2 HPS

So something like this instead:

TL;DR add an extra medium laser to your Stormcrow laser builds, switch a few omnipods around, and it's business as usual.

This sidesteps actual issues with how the Stormcrow functions, relative to what it's optimal loadout (and I can only envision a few good builds at this point).

So, let me explain it in 3 bits:


1) Duration nerf is significant - .2 is a lot

A simple reference point is the difference between the IS LL and IS ERLL.

The duration difference between the two weapons is .25.

They have the same tonnage and crits, and the ERLL is hotter by 1 pt of heat. Obviously, being "ER", the ERLL has more range, which is an important feature.

For most people, you are ultimately trading between range and facetime (and occasionally heat).

Adding .2 seconds to the CERMED through quirks makes the mech far less desirable. Cooldown is a non-factor as most Stormcrows really run hot anyways (not to the degree of the heaviest of Laservomit builds), so the facetime factor is an actual issue.

The more time you must stare at your opponent, the more likely you'll get more return fire.

So, I would not "write off" the negative duration quirk... as there is documented behavior between IS LL+ERLL mechlab designs.


2) How it is structured - Your build is bad

The penalty is applied as such that having an energy hardpoint is +3% duration to every energy hardpoint, with 2 exceptions:

Stormcrow-A Left Arm (4E) - +6%
Stormcrow-B Right Arm (6E) - +9%

So, the arms that have 1E has the same effective penalty of a 2E arm (both are +3% duration), so there's no real benefit to using less (do you need really arm movement quirks at this point?).

The thing about Stormcrow arms is that they are easy to remove, despite not being the ideal candidate for shielding.. as the arms can technically control most of the energy firepower.. unless you're trying to run something like 3/4 CERMED + Gauss... in which case you can safely place all the relevant energy in the torsos (and head) and keep the Gauss arm (explosion contained within that section in the worst case scenario).

I dunno, it's too much of a gimmick to have all/most the energy in one arm (or one side for that matter).

The first build referenced though has no lower arm actuators... which is actually VERY important.

When a Clan mech generally doesn't enable arm actuators (when there is not a restriction), it is bad design (I think the Dire Wolf is the exception, since in some ways it ruins convergence, so it is what it is for a face-staring death mech).


3) Combining the two aspects - Remember the "overquirked" IS Mechs

While this is unfair to compare, but you end up building something along the lines of what some have considered "overquirked"... like the Dragon-1N (dakka dragon) or even the currently "leading medium"... the Wolverine-6R (dakka Wolverine).

Now, this doesn't mean you can't be "as effective" numbers-wise to those builds. In fact, it is very doable (I love the Wolverine-6K, prequirks, so this is not hard to accomplish), but remember that these builds require your opponent to be occupied, and not staring at you.

At higher levels of play, people AIM for your arm. Yes, it's true. It sounds like "Lostech" to some, but it happens often. What ends up happening as people "claim" that these mechs are OP... and at times this can be true, but there's a risk-reward (high risk-high reward) that when players are aware of such builds, they can isolate that provided weakness.

So, it ends up that such mechs are generally in REALITY Tier 2 as they cannot function alone (unless the opfor is bad/inferior) as you have to exert a level of skill to minimize the "gimmick" or the "weakness" that is that "power arm".

The Stormcrow keeps all of the agility, but that agility is NEGATED when it has to stare at the mechs longer. Sure you can use arm articulation, but that would also indirectly expose the mech's arms further at times.


While the assessment "sounds good" on paper, I disregard the notion that it isn't a big deal. We have points of reference (particular weapons and mechs) that adhere to actual mech and build choices. It is fair enough to say that it is significant enough of a change that there will be limited usages/builds that allow this to function as intended.

I don't think Stormcrows will be obsoleted overnight, more niche building is going to occur, with more obvious weaknesses to exploit due to the designs that try to "avoid" or "minimize" weaknesses. It is akin to a "hurt" athlete (players that can function, but has to compensate differently for being injured) where you can see something "change" in their game because of an unknown/undisclosed injury. In the case of MWO, the Stormcrow won't exactly go the way of the dodo, but it would be compromised far more easily with the quirks as currently projected/constituted.

So, do get me wrong... you can run a Stormcrow, but I will be looking for that super-energy arm and remove it whenever I get the chance. Being crippled weapons-wise in combat is not a fun state to be in. That is going to be the Stormcrow in a nutshell.

Edited by Deathlike, 18 May 2015 - 02:01 PM.

[Jman5]

Chagatay, on 18 May 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

Still doesn't change the fact that your face time is going to be significantly longer and your cooldown will be significantly longer. Either way, it has been interesting to read the forums of late. So much doom and gloom.

Not to worry though, I have plenty of alternate mechs to play. Probably should pick up Mr. Gargles and the Mad Dog at some point. The actual solution is obvious everyone will just switch to Hellbringers. Enjoy your new mono-culture.

It's longer face time, but you're doing +7 damage from the extra medium lasers. I haven't run the numbers, but I have the feeling that the damage per second over the beam duration will be similar to before. Still, if the ER LL causes people problems, subbing in the Large Pulse Laser is doable.

[1453 R]

jlawsl, on 18 May 2015 - 01:32 PM, said:

...

jlawsl, on 18 May 2015 - 01:51 PM, said:

...

Please settle down. A lot of Clan pilots are trying to strike a better balance between factions. They're not protesting that something doesn't need to be done, they're protesting that this is the wrong thing to do. Which it is.

I get that you're salty, and I'm sorry things have been rough for a while. But there's no need to ravage everyone in a Clan machine. Just about all of us would've done things differently if we were in Piranha's shoes. Nobody wants overpowered crap in the game, man.

[Jman5]

Deathlike, on 18 May 2015 - 01:59 PM, said:

2) How it is structured - Your build is bad

The penalty is applied as such that having an energy hardpoint is +3% duration to every energy hardpoint, with 2 exceptions:

Stormcrow-A Left Arm (4E) - +6%
Stormcrow-B Right Arm (6E) - +9%

So, the arms that have 1E has the same effective penalty of a 2E arm (both are +3% duration), so there's no real benefit to using less (do you need really arm movement quirks at this point?).

Check again. Stormcrow A Left arm (4E) is 9% which is the same as Stormcrow B's Right arm (6E). So you can sub one for the other for no difference in quirk penalty.

[Deathlike]

Jman5, on 18 May 2015 - 02:15 PM, said:

Check again. Stormcrow A Left arm (4E) is 9% which is the same as Stormcrow B's Right arm (6E). So you can sub one for the other for no difference in quirk penalty.

Bah, it's easier if they used the smurfy format (show pre-patch quirks and then show post-patch quirks). Doesn't the 6E hardpoint keep its energy heat gen (heat increase) quirks?

Edit: Never mind, but that still reads as odd to me (the 6E arm having the same stats as the 4E arm).

That doesn't even explain the Stormcrow-B's head+left arm having laser quirks (neither holds any sort of energy hardpoint).

Either way, trying to avoid it doesn't change that reality that the quirks will affect the Stormcrow in a huge way (energy-wise).

Edited by Deathlike, 18 May 2015 - 02:26 PM.

[Jman5]

Deathlike, on 18 May 2015 - 02:24 PM, said:

Bah, it's easier if they used the smurfy format (show pre-patch quirks and then show post-patch quirks). Doesn't the 6E hardpoint keep its energy heat gen (heat increase) quirks?

That doesn't even explain the Stormcrow-B's head+left arm having laser quirks (neither holds any sort of energy hardpoint).

Either way, trying to avoid it doesn't change that reality that the quirks will affect the Stormcrow in a huge way (energy-wise).

Yeah the way they display it is hard on the eyes. I had to quadruple check everything. Also they removed the heat gen penalty quirk on the 6E arm.

[Deathlike]

Jman5, on 18 May 2015 - 02:27 PM, said:

Yeah the way they display it is hard on the eyes. I had to quadruple check everything. Also they removed the heat gen penalty quirk on the 6E arm.

It's better if they formatted like this:

Before (in Red), After (in Green) with the word "buff" or "nerf" written after the new value in question.
If the quirk didn't exist previously, it should be listed with "no previous quirk" as the old value.
If the quirk is to be removed, it should be listed with "removed previous quirk" as the new value.

It's not rocket science.

Edited by Deathlike, 18 May 2015 - 02:34 PM.

[Hit the Deck]

I've run the numbers on Jman5's 'Crow laser vomit example and indeed the DPS/HPS values of "1x cERLL + 5x cERML" (pre nerf) and "1x cERLL + 6x cERML" (post nerf) are exactly the same assuming 18% nerf to CD and duration. The new config costs you one DHS though, which is not that significant.

I think this is good news for people who use cERMLs on their builds and still want to laser vomit. As has been said, the cERLL nerf creates bigger problem because it has Ghost Heat limit of two and adding more is probably out of the question anyway because of the weight. This also applies to cSPL and cERSL because more often than not, people already put maximum number allowed by GH of those on their builds.

Edited by Hit the Deck, 18 May 2015 - 02:42 PM.

[Jman5]

Hit the Deck, on 18 May 2015 - 02:33 PM, said:

I've run the numbers on Jman5's 'Crow laser vomit example and indeed the DPS/HPS values of "1x cERLL + 5x cERML" and "1x cERLL + 6x cERML" are exactly the same assuming 18% nerf to CD and duration. The new config costs you one DHS though, which is not that significant.

I think this is good news for people who use cERMLs on their builds and still want to laser vomit. As has been said, the cERLL nerf creates bigger problem because it has Ghost Heat limit of two.

Sorry to screw up your math, but I just checked and the new build is only 15% quirks vs the old build which will have 18% tomorrow. (although you could make it 18% if you change the left torso omnipod! )

Edited by Jman5, 18 May 2015 - 02:39 PM.

[Chagatay]

Jman5, on 18 May 2015 - 02:06 PM, said:

It's longer face time, but you're doing +7 damage from the extra medium lasers. I haven't run the numbers, but I have the feeling that the damage per second over the beam duration will be similar to before. Still, if the ER LL causes people problems, subbing in the Large Pulse Laser is doable.

Well maybe if the OPFOR doesn't tear you a new one for even daring to think you can stand there for almost 2s. Part of the shift to cLPL (a vastly superior weapon IMHO) instead of the crappy ERLL was the burn times. Even if you cut early and get the same effective time on target the damage will be approximately the same as before, you are now overheating so hard. Oh and you now take longer to fire again because you traded heatsinks for more heat....

I suppose you still could do all that but what is the point when I can just roll a Hellbie and be done with it.

[Hit the Deck]

Jman5, on 18 May 2015 - 02:35 PM, said:

Sorry to screw up your math, but I just checked and the new build is only 15% quirks vs the old build which will have 18% tomorrow. (although you could make it 18% if you change the left torso omnipod! )

I actually didn't bother to check the total nerf value of various pod configs but swapping a DHS for a cERML for "1x cERLL/cLPL plus X number of cERML" laser vomit builds should be an easy sidestep after the patch hit I guess. It would be interesting to run the numbers on various other laser vomit builds (manually or with smurfy).

Chagatay, on 18 May 2015 - 02:56 PM, said:

...
I suppose you still could do all that but what is the point when I can just roll a Hellbie and be done with it.

Timbie's ability to jump is pretty significant for me, not to mention that I don't really like how the vertical distance between the head and the arms on Hellbie is pretty big

Edited by Hit the Deck, 18 May 2015 - 03:01 PM.

[Ghogiel]

Gas Guzzler, on 18 May 2015 - 01:08 PM, said:

Does that mean back to 5 ER MLs and 2 c LPLs on the Timber Wolf too then? I think that is what it means.

I think it just tips things to mounting a gauss on TBR slightly more.