38 replies to this topic

[Xetelian]

Its actually a misconception to believe there is any role besides doing damage in this game.


IS pilots want equality between the sides because it would be foolish not to balance the game.

Edited by Xetelian, 19 May 2015 - 10:43 PM.

[STEF_]

Eternal Skirmish in tiny maps, going on since 2012.

So, pgi thought about an easy (and wrong) solution for lights to be viable: over buff them, so they can face even assaults.
The good solution would have been larger maps, so scouting and recon would have made sense (even paying good c-bills for their role, etc.)

There is no role, here. Skirmish mode only: all skirmishers

[CocoaJin]

Play more, learn more. It's all situational and skill based. No player is gifted immunity from an other unit solely on the basis of his chassis. A slow and lumbering Assault can disable a light in 1-2 shots, but if you can exploit cover, speed and angular velocity, you can put yourself in position to really hurt an Assault...any mech really.

The advantage of large mechs was generally their ranged ability. They could hurt a light before he closed the gap. In MWO, we can avoid the ranged advantage through skillful maneuvering and cover...once a nimble mech gets up close, the large mech is disadvantaged.

Ultimately, you have to rely on your team to stay alive. It's way too easy to find yourself at a disadvantage in any mech against a single foe of any class.

The only real life saving attribute in game is speed(which tends to be a light thing), because it gives you the chance to disengage and break a disadvantaged engagement and re-enter combat on better terms.

[Y E O N N E]

They shot down the Lance vs. Star idea because it meant that, in the mixed-teams solo queue world, Clan 'Mechs would be outright superior and nobody would want to play Inner Sphere.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 19 May 2015 - 10:59 PM.

[ArchSight]

BobbehYYC, on 19 May 2015 - 10:56 PM, said:

is there not other ways to balance other than equality. 5 Lance's vs 3 stars (a trinary) meaning 20 vs 15 then clan mechs could be more dangerous ton for ton but the match would still be balanced and more lore appropriate.

It's not going to happen.
http://mwomercs.com/...balance-update/

[Y E O N N E]

Where did you shoot the Raven? If you shot it in the center, all it takes is some small back and forth motions of the mouse to distribute that 48 damage across five components.

[Nightshade24]

To ignore your questions, it's a missconception a Specific class of mech = specific role.

Look at the light mechs.

Urbanmech... for a "Scout", this thing sure does pack a heavy firepower of a small laser and an AC 20 at a very slow speed of 32 kph....

Kitfox... for a "spotter" to have more LRM's then a stalker, It's a bit heavy on range firepower for a light isn't it?
Or the Kitfox having the due ler medium laser and a gauss rifle...

Wolfhound having as much armour as most medium chassis of the era?



That's 1 example.

Also hearing about a light mech 1 vs 1 an assault isn't that silly... look at the clans, they used Single BATTLEARMOUR (1ton... not 20, not 35... just 1 ton...) up against atlases...
Light mechs famously take on assaults lore wise, but usually when the assault is distracted, which is most of the situations in MW: O.


So yea... prepare for more confusion

[Y E O N N E]

BobbehYYC, on 19 May 2015 - 11:07 PM, said:

True it could have been across the Entire chest felt like a Center mass shot though

The Raven is long and narrow, as well as inherently small, so it doesn't take much to spread the damage around. Outside of the Locust and Jenner, pretty much all Inner Sphere Lights have tiny, narrow torso sections that are hard to stay focused on. Even center mass has three segments to spread damage to.

For the Clan Lights, they are all fairly huge with large center torsos sections.

[YueFei]

As you play more, your own aim gets better, and everyone around you that you play with and against aims better, too. At least, that's how it tends to go.

As the average players' aim gets better, the harder it is for Light mechs to survive.

Also another contributing factor is that players will more and more tend to be properly positioned for mutual support. You can dance behind 1 Assault mech in a Light mech.... only to get your legs snatched out by another Assault or Heavy mech standing 200 meters away. This is a team vs team game, not a series of 1v1's.

Even if it were the case that 1 perfectly piloted Light mech always beats 1 perfectly driven Assault mech, make it a 2v2 scenario and the situation reverses.

[DAYLEET]

BobbehYYC, on 19 May 2015 - 10:33 PM, said:

Hello I am pretty new to MWO but a long time MW/BT fan, from table top to cards I played them all.

I wanted to ask a general question because i feel confused by the current state of mech roles.

In 90% of the things i've played related to MW and to BT the following was true

Light mechs did not **** with Assault mechs unless there were multiple lights and terrain to use as cover while circle strafing because most weapons from an Assault mech were 1-2 shot cripplers as in kill you or blow off a leg(So kill you).

Mediums Didnt up front **** with assualts, as in they wouldnt walk up to the face of an atlas and say HI and attack. They could however handle a few exchanges and come out bruised but alive. They could however kill lights with some efficiency unless outnumbered, and they were scared of heavies who were usually mobile enough to keep up but tanky and tough enough to put them down.

Heavies were your every day brawlers, they fought the majority of the battles, they were not super scared of lights but a pack of mediums was something to fear. Against assaults they could exchange for abit but the assault would weather the storm and wear them down eventually.

Assaults, The toughest sack of sh*t on the map. They moved slow but packed an army size arsenal inside them. They were not scared of lights unless ambushed or injured or crippled, same goes for mediums, and one v one they were not scared of heavies. A pack of heavies would make quick work of an assault but when they moved in packs even heavies had to play it safe and use terrain.

In MWO currently from what i've seen.

Lights are Gods. They pack enough firepower to 2 shot a heavy or assaults rear armor, and their legs are strong enough to withstand a barrage from most heavy weaponry because they are moving and it is hard to get 100% damage to the component.

Mediums, have to be very careful of lights because they are quick and can kill you very quick. Heavies and assaults are scary but not enough to discourage a quick open field brawl between a stormcrow and say an atlas.

Heavies, are the most true to their usual role but are only slightly tankier than a medium and can still get vollied by a couple of lights from behind.

Assaults, or should we call them meat soaks. They can take a fair bit of punishment but they are not as scary as they should be. A lance of heavies vs 2 assaults should have to regroup and strategically take them out not just face brawl them and play attrition.


I guess what i am saying is someone please explain to me the current roles by weight class in MWO


Because lights certainly are not Scouts, distractionary forces, and support
Mediums are not quick moving additional firepower that is a tad fragile
and assaults are not the scary heavy weight champion of the field that can easily tango with a medium or light lance.

Thank you for your time.

Also someone want to explain to me the two following view points so i can understand

1) Why do light pilots think its their job to solo assaults and are mad if light mechs get nerfed so they cant fight 2 weight classes above them.
2) Why do IS pilots think their mechs should = clan mechs. Pound for pound clan mechs were superior in every way, they were deadlier and quicker and more customizable IS mechs were more in number and believed in different rules compared to clanners. I fully support the idea that CW should be 10 vs 12, 2 stars of clan mechs (5) and 3 lances of IS mechs (4). The clan tech should be superior but against superior odds the benefit equals out. Meaning that at the end of a 4 mech drop IS will have dropped 48 and Clan will have dropped 40.

Sorry i know i shouldnt lore rant but the idea that a non omni IS mech of the same weight class could consistently go toe to toe with a Clan mech is ridiculous.

I like that you like and liked your post.

[Elizander]

Roles are more like how you deal damage.

You can be a heat efficient brawler that can pressure energy boats up close or a sniper that can take big alphas but need time to cool down. You can be a heat efficient gauss sniper but you'd be limited by ammo or an LRM carrier that can be a coin toss depending on your team makeup or where on the map the teams decide to fight.

Scouting is a role, but not really useful in puglandia to be honest.

[bad arcade kitty]

not true

just check results of the latest 'hunt a phoenix mech down' event
http://mwomercs.com/tournaments
check how heavier mechs have significantly better top results and how assaults have the best score

it was the same for the prvious event

[R0B0TULISM]

BobbehYYC, on 19 May 2015 - 10:33 PM, said:

Lights are Gods.

ORLY?

They die when you shoot them, last I checked. If you shoot them in the legs they die even faster. May I suggest you try shooting them? Also map knowledge, positioning, teamwork, not exposing your back to them, shielding, spreading dmg, etc...

As you get better lights will become less of a threat.

[Lykaon]

Once you have some more experience you will find many of your opinons will change.

I can give you some tips to speed things up though.

When fighting most light mechs aim for the hips.This will increase the volume of effective damage when using lasers.If you aim to low the beam will be grazing the leg then fire between the legs and then hit the other leg.When targeting hips the beam drags across the "pelvis" area (ussually the CT for damage allocation) so there is a greater transfer of damage.

2 medium mechs WILL and SHOULD destroy a solo assault mech. 2x 50 tons with 2 independant heat scales and cooling systems with quickly over come 1X 100 tons with one cooling system and heat capacity.Not to mention that all those mediums need to do is tear through the rear armor to cripple the assault mech's damage output.The Assault mech can not easily keep one of the mediums from being behind while engaging the other. But mainly the advantage is from having two heat scales vs one.

Needles to say Heavy mechs have more armor and firepower so 4 heavies vs 2 assaults should also be heavily in favor of the heavy mechs. 4 x cooling sytems and heatscale vs 2...4 heavies focusing one assault vs 2 assaults focusing 1 heavy.

One very important aspect of MWo combat is Evasion > Absorbtion! Light mechs lack armor but do to agility and speed they are hit less often.This acts like a defense buff for the light mechs but this buff is entirely limited by circumstance. A poor light pilot that frequently runs in straight lines at predictable speeds or a crack shot aiming at a light deminishes the evasion chances of a light mech.

Tips for fighting light mech "gods"

1) do not be caught alone.

2) If a light mech has latched onto you because you somehow ended up alone use the terrain.Back up to a cliff or building preventing the light from getting your rear armor.Force them to face your guns to attack you.

3) If you have a light mech running a circle around your mech do not bother to rotate in synch with the circling light.Instead turn COUNTER to the light mechs trajectory. Turn to meet him in his circle do not chase him through the circle.Also frequently reversing and walking backward while also turning counter makes it more difficult for the light to get a favorable attack vector on you.A smart light pilot leaves a target alone when they pull these sorts of manuvers (there is almost always easier prey)

4) do not panic! When an enemy light pilot notices that his chosen target is calmly manuvering (as I recommended above) they will be the one rethinking the encounter.

5) there is no shame in calling in back up.It should be a common practice for your friendly light (and fast mediums) to come to the defense of slow assaults being harassed by light raiders.

Assault mechs counter to popular strategy are NOT for absorbing damage.They are for DEALING damage. When ever possible an assault mech should not be rushing out into the fray they should be possitioning carefully to make the most of their firepower.

If a charge is the tactic chosen the assault should NOT lead the charge.Lead the charge with the mechs most likely to break through the enemy line and possition to attack from the rear.If executed correctly the assault mechs should be charging the backs of the enemy who have turned to handle lights and mediums in their back field.

Leading with lumbering assault mechs presents the enemy with easy to target enemies and has the added complication of potentially hindering other friendly mechs targeting past the slow and large assault mechs.

Note: sometimes you DO want to lead with an assault mech.mainly if the enemy force is heavily damaged and you lack speedy line breakers to execute a breakthrough assault.


To answer you specific questions...

BobbehYYC, on 19 May 2015 - 10:33 PM, said:

Also someone want to explain to me the two following view points so i can understand

1) Why do light pilots think its their job to solo assaults and are mad if light mechs get nerfed so they cant fight 2 weight classes above them.
2) Why do IS pilots think their mechs should = clan mechs. Pound for pound clan mechs were superior in every way, they were deadlier and quicker and more customizable IS mechs were more in number and believed in different rules compared to clanners. I fully support the idea that CW should be 10 vs 12, 2 stars of clan mechs (5) and 3 lances of IS mechs (4). The clan tech should be superior but against superior odds the benefit equals out. Meaning that at the end of a 4 mech drop IS will have dropped 48 and Clan will have dropped 40.

Sorry i know i shouldnt lore rant but the idea that a non omni IS mech of the same weight class could consistently go toe to toe with a Clan mech is ridiculous.

I understand that it appears that light mech devestate assaults with impunity but,what you are actually seeing is a skill battle.Light mechs beat the crap out of poorly piloted assault mechs.Trust me I do not sweat running across most light mechs in my assaults (there are a few light pilots I am weary of though)

Also understand that there is no real role warfare in MWo (in particular in PUG matches).There is one function for a mech DEAL DAMAGE.
Because of this the obvious choice would be select a mech that deals the most (and best) damage the quickest while also possesing enough survival traits to continue dealing damage.

This would be why in the past we have seen some very static metas. Gauss + PPC spam,Poptart pinpoint damage spam etc. As a result of this issue PGI instituted a mandatory 3/3/3/3 format requiring a group to be composed of three of each weight class (when the matchmaker can of course).

Essentially this means that if there is only one role (damage dealing) but the rules force selection on non optimal damage dealing mechs.Players will want every mech weight class to have the ability to deal damage on as equal a footing as possible.

As for clan mechs vs Inner Sphere mechs?

each match is 12 v 12 and in organized group lay there will be 12 clan mechs vs 12 Inner Sphere mechs regularly.For whatever reasons this is the format we have.

So,how many players do you think will choose to play on the side that is handycapped?How many I.S. mech pilots will there be compared to Clan pilots? Balance is mandatory because without it very few players will want to play punching bag for clan mechs.

[Joseph Mallan]

CocoaJin, on 19 May 2015 - 10:55 PM, said:

Play more, learn more. It's all situational and skill based. No player is gifted immunity from an other unit solely on the basis of his chassis. A slow and lumbering Assault can disable a light in 1-2 shots, but if you can exploit cover, speed and angular velocity, you can put yourself in position to really hurt an Assault...any mech really.

The advantage of large mechs was generally their ranged ability. They could hurt a light before he closed the gap. In MWO, we can avoid the ranged advantage through skillful maneuvering and cover...once a nimble mech gets up close, the large mech is disadvantaged.

Ultimately, you have to rely on your team to stay alive. It's way too easy to find yourself at a disadvantage in any mech against a single foe of any class.

The only real life saving attribute in game is speed(which tends to be a light thing), because it gives you the chance to disengage and break a disadvantaged engagement and re-enter combat on better terms.

So as a Light Pilot you can make as much XP and cash Strictly scouting or Capping the "Primary Objective" as you can skirmishing?

[Alistair Winter]

BobbehYYC, on 19 May 2015 - 10:33 PM, said:

Hello I am pretty new to MWO but a long time MW/BT fan, from table top to cards I played them all.
In MWO currently from what i've seen.
Lights are Gods.

This is how most new players feel when they play assault mechs and meet light mech pilots of their own skill or above.

This will change when you become more familiar with the game and learn how to handle light mechs.

Lights are the most unpopular mechs in this game, and for good reason. They are, as a rule of thumb, the weakest mechs, with least impact on the match (except Conquest) and they get the least amount of C-bills and XP.

BobbehYYC, on 19 May 2015 - 10:33 PM, said:

I guess what i am saying is someone please explain to me the current roles by weight class in MWO
Because lights certainly are not Scouts, distractionary forces, and support
Mediums are not quick moving additional firepower that is a tad fragile
and assaults are not the scary heavy weight champion of the field that can easily tango with a medium or light lance.
Thank you for your time.

It depends on the game mode, but for Skirmish and Assault, light mechs are scouts during the first minute or so on larger maps. Beyond that, light mechs are harassers, distracting enemy snipers and LRM boats, probing the enemy formation for weak points, and swooping in to kill targets that are isolated or nearly dead. When a lance of light mechs appear as "Gods", and just kill one mech after the other, sweeping through the enemy team, it's always a sign that their opponents had zero teamwork. A good firing line will tear light mechs to shreds. Light mechs thrive on chaos and unorganized teams.

Medium mechs can be anything from SRM brawlers to laser snipers, so it's hard to give a common description. But for the most part, I would say that medium mechs are the glue. Their speed lets them quickly change position to defend against attacks or follow heavies and assault mechs in their attacks, but medium mechs sort of depend on the rest of the team to do their part. Unless you've got a large skill disparity, it's especially hard for a medium mech to do its own thing, because it's so fragile and not fast enough to escape a bad position. Medium mechs will often struggle against assault mechs, because medium mechs are oversized in MWO, making them easy to hit, while not having the speed, agility and firepower to succeed in a duel against heavily armed and armoured assault mechs.

Heavy mechs are essentially the meat and potatoes in MWO, like a line cruiser at sea (or in space, for Battlefleet Gothic fans). They typically do more damage and unless they're dedicated gauss snipers or LRM boats, they usually handle themselves well against all other classes.

Assault mechs are invaluable for soaking up damage, and they also bring more raw firepower to the table. However, their lack of speed and agility often leaves them outmaneuvered, which is why the sum of their damage is often actually less than heavy mechs. They have trouble being at the right place at the right time, especially in a NASCAR match where both teams circle each other with increasing speed. In a straight up brawl or a coordinated push, however, assault mechs are extremely valuable, to the point where they will often be the difference between a win and a loss. When a medium mech leads a charge and explodes, the charge often falters and people retreat. When a 100 ton assault mech leads the charge, it gives the rest of the team some confidence to push.

At least, this is the way it usually works in PUG matches for Assault and Skirmish. YMMV.

BobbehYYC, on 19 May 2015 - 10:33 PM, said:

Also someone want to explain to me the two following view points so i can understand
1) Why do light pilots think its their job to solo assaults and are mad if light mechs get nerfed so they cant fight 2 weight classes above them.

Because PGI made the game like that. Basically, there's no incentive to play light mechs unless light mechs are equally dangerous as heavier mechs. Most people can buy an assault mech after a week of playing, so if light mechs are just objectively worse mechs, no one would play light mechs.

Which is sort of what's happening already, because PGI has chosen a poor compromise between Battletech hierarchy, total equality and rock, paper, scissors.

Basically, in a FPS game where players can choose between 4 classes, it makes no sense to have 1 class as objectively worse. No one would play Paladins or Wizards in WoW if those classes were objectively worse than the others.

BobbehYYC, on 19 May 2015 - 10:33 PM, said:

2) Why do IS pilots think their mechs should = clan mechs. Pound for pound clan mechs were superior in every way, they were deadlier and quicker and more customizable IS mechs were more in number and believed in different rules compared to clanners. I fully support the idea that CW should be 10 vs 12, 2 stars of clan mechs (5) and 3 lances of IS mechs (4). The clan tech should be superior but against superior odds the benefit equals out. Meaning that at the end of a 4 mech drop IS will have dropped 48 and Clan will have dropped 40.

Because PGI has thrown the lore out the window in this regard. And again, see the Batman and Robin example. It's a human tendency to desire power. If Clan mechs are more powerful, people want to play Clan mechs. It's not like Star Craft where the Zerg player gets more units than the Protoss. Because in MWO, we're actually representing individual characters, so nobody wants to be one of the many zerglings instead of the few Siege tanks, if they can choose.

To make each faction equally popular, PGI made them equally powerful.

[Joseph Mallan]

Alistair Winter, on 20 May 2015 - 04:15 AM, said:

This is how most new players feel when they play assault mechs and meet light mech pilots of their own skill or above.

This will change when you become more familiar with the game and learn how to handle light mechs.

Lights are the most unpopular mechs in this game, and for good reason. They are, as a rule of thumb, the weakest mechs, with least impact on the match (except Conquest) and they get the least amount of C-bills and XP.


It depends on the game mode, but for Skirmish and Assault, light mechs are scouts during the first minute or so on larger maps. Beyond that, light mechs are harassers, distracting enemy snipers and LRM boats, probing the enemy formation for weak points, and swooping in to kill targets that are isolated or nearly dead. When a lance of light mechs appear as "Gods", and just kill one mech after the other, sweeping through the enemy team, it's always a sign that their opponents had zero teamwork. A good firing line will tear light mechs to shreds. Light mechs thrive on chaos and unorganized teams.

Medium mechs can be anything from SRM brawlers to laser snipers, so it's hard to give a common description. But for the most part, I would say that medium mechs are the glue. Their speed lets them quickly change position to defend against attacks or follow heavies and assault mechs in their attacks, but medium mechs sort of depend on the rest of the team to do their part. Unless you've got a large skill disparity, it's especially hard for a medium mech to do its own thing, because it's so fragile and not fast enough to escape a bad position. Medium mechs will often struggle against assault mechs, because medium mechs are oversized in MWO, making them easy to hit, while not having the speed, agility and firepower to succeed in a duel against heavily armed and armoured assault mechs.

Heavy mechs are essentially the meat and potatoes in MWO, like a line cruiser at sea (or in space, for Battlefleet Gothic fans). They typically do more damage and unless they're dedicated gauss snipers or LRM boats, they usually handle themselves well against all other classes.

Assault mechs are invaluable for soaking up damage, and they also bring more raw firepower to the table. However, their lack of speed and agility often leaves them outmaneuvered, which is why the sum of their damage is often actually less than heavy mechs. They have trouble being at the right place at the right time, especially in a NASCAR match where both teams circle each other with increasing speed. In a straight up brawl or a coordinated push, however, assault mechs are extremely valuable, to the point where they will often be the difference between a win and a loss. When a medium mech leads a charge and explodes, the charge often falters and people retreat. When a 100 ton assault mech leads the charge, it gives the rest of the team some confidence to push.

At least, this is the way it usually works in PUG matches for Assault and Skirmish. YMMV.


Because PGI made the game like that. Basically, there's no incentive to play light mechs unless light mechs are equally dangerous as heavier mechs. Most people can buy an assault mech after a week of playing, so if light mechs are just objectively worse mechs, no one would play light mechs.

Which is sort of what's happening already, because PGI has chosen a poor compromise between Battletech hierarchy, total equality and rock, paper, scissors.

Basically, in a FPS game where players can choose between 4 classes, it makes no sense to have 1 class as objectively worse. No one would play Paladins or Wizards in WoW if those classes were objectively worse than the others.


Because PGI has thrown the lore out the window in this regard. And again, see the Batman and Robin example. It's a human tendency to desire power. If Clan mechs are more powerful, people want to play Clan mechs. It's not like Star Craft where the Zerg player gets more units than the Protoss. Because in MWO, we're actually representing individual characters, so nobody wants to be one of the many zerglings instead of the few Siege tanks, if they can choose.

To make each faction equally popular, PGI made them equally powerful.

[Alistair Winter]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 May 2015 - 04:17 AM, said:

One of my all time favourite films

[Creovex]

Regarding lights, I usually front load my assaults and heavies but know to move with teammates or rotate appropriately when a light is circling my rear armor. Alot of times you will see lights taking out assaults who are either disconnected or a newer player and not running with the team. the light queue is small but full of mostly experienced players.

Edited by Creovex, 20 May 2015 - 04:26 AM.

[mogs01gt]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 May 2015 - 04:17 AM, said:

monica!!


We can go on for pages regarding roles or lack of roles. The bottom line, MWO doesnt promote proper lance fighting and the maps are simply too small for lights to do their damn job plus there isnt an incentive to scout to do lack of cbills. New player must realize the game is an FPS and its only about killing your opponents.

Edited by mogs01gt, 20 May 2015 - 05:03 AM.