175 replies to this topic

[IraqiWalker]

Celtic Warrior, on 24 May 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

I was commenting on your #1 topic so maybe a little reading comprehension on your end is needed as well. Thanks though for your input.

That point was aimed specifically at the person I was having the AC discussion with. Not all clan players

Edited by IraqiWalker, 24 May 2015 - 05:06 PM.

[Commander A9]

I have to agree. PGI already admitted that they're Inner Sphere loyalists. The Clan mechs were dumbed down to a product that was marketed and sold as a brand name.

So if you bought Clan mechs, you bought the name-not a mech that was vastly superior to its opponents' hardware.

It pains me to know that PGI made real money off these mechs, then butchered them.

You CAN always demand a refund; World of Warcraft players (allegedly) did it when Blizzard did the same thing over several WoW editions; they ended up filing suit.

Short of that, don't buy the upcoming packs. You don't HAVE to spend real money on this. You want to get PGI's attention? Don't buy what they're selling.

Edited by Commander A9, 24 May 2015 - 05:39 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Commander A9, on 24 May 2015 - 05:39 PM, said:

I have to agree. PGI already admitted that they're Inner Sphere loyalists. The Clan mechs were dumbed down to a product that was marketed and sold as a brand name.

So if you bought Clan mechs, you bought the name-not a mech that was vastly superior to its opponents' hardware.

It pains me to know that PGI made real money off these mechs, then butchered them.

You CAN always demand a refund; World of Warcraft players (allegedly) did it when Blizzard did the same thing over several WoW editions; they ended up filing suit.

Short of that, don't buy the upcoming packs. You don't HAVE to spend real money on this. You want to get PGI's attention? Don't buy what they're selling.

Who on God's green earth thinks that having one side be vastly superior to the other in a pvp game with matched teams, is a good thing? Why would anyone ever use IS tech ever again, if they went with your version of the clans (For the record, the clans weren't really THAT superior to the IS. The IS had stock mechs for the most part, which is why omnis seemed so strong. Also, most IS mechs use SHS, no upgrades, and couldn't refit as quickly as clan mechs did. For example a TBR can be reduced down to it's CT, and the engineers would still be able to slap a full one in a couple of days. While doing the same with an IS battlemech takes at least 3+ months)

We bought the clan mechs (I preordered wave 1, and would have done the same for every other clan pack after, if I had the money), to play with clan tech, not to get P2W mechs. It pains me that people like you don't seem to understand that.

The argument that "they're supposed to be better" is one of the worst, weakest, and most irrelevant to MWO I have ever heard. You're not the first to use it, but no one ever should use it. This is a game where balance has be done on a 1-to-1 basis. The TBR, and SCR were hurting all other clan mechs as well, and this fix is barely a slap on the wrist. They are both still the strongest mechs in the game.

[Tim East]

IraqiWalker, on 21 May 2015 - 08:41 AM, said:

This post is bad, and you should feel bad.

Liked just because it made me want to watch this movie again. My first blu-ray.

Moving back to the topic at hand, my 6 SPL + 1 ERLL Stormcrow does not feel as though it has lost much in the way of potency. I still bum rushed a Quickdraw and cut him to ribbons with delightful alacrity, and I still used the ERLL to reach out and touch mechs for the more or less free assist money.

I don't have any Timber Wolf to test it out on, and I don't use those weapons for the most part anyway, since I strongly prefer the shorter burn time on pulse lasers.

Regarding CUAC's, they're junk imo. LBX's are where it's at. All the front-loading of the IS AC coupled with the improved crit chance of the pellets. The only downside is the extra crit slot required and the slight spreading effect, which is really something of a double-edged sword rather than an outright malus.

[Mercules]

Jimmy DiGriz, on 20 May 2015 - 04:21 AM, said:

You seem to miss my point TWIAFU, MWO is not Battletech, this is an entirely different and new game which is based on Battletech - I think of it like NFL being based on, but different from, Rugby i.e. a similar game using some of the root ideas but you need no knowledge of the antecedents to either play, or enjoy watching it.

Except MWO is based directly off Battletech. Why do we have a mech called a Hunchback? Because it exists in Battletech. Why don't we already have Heavy/Light Gauss and Snub Nosed PPCs? Because by the Battletech timeline they do not yet exist.

Now, if they had more CLOSELY followed Battletech the game would have been better. For one thing, PinPointConvergence is not a thing in Battletech. There is a heat scale in the BT rules that would have prevented multiple Alphas and high heat builds without resorting to Ghost Heat, one of the most hated rules PGI created for MWO. JJ would launch you in such a way that they are genuinely useful for maneuvering but not for "poptarting". ECM wouldn't prevent you from locking onto mechs and hide them when in plain sight. LRMs would work well for Direct Fire but still be capable of indirect fire with a loss of accuracy. Weapons would not do X damage in a single shot but would instead have been adjusted so that they did x damage over the 10 second turn and generated X heat in that time. So if a PPC was able to fire and refresh 2.5 times during that 10 seconds then each shot would do 4 damage and 4 heat which would have spread the damage around a bit more and made it so that we didn't have to double armor to make the mechs stick around for more than a second or two. An AC 20 would be a high caliber rapid firing cannon. One pull would do X damage from multiple projectiles and then it would reload, (sound familiar?).

So on and so forth. So many broken things come from them NOT following specific TT rules.

Darwins Dog, on 20 May 2015 - 12:37 PM, said:

I can't help but think that this sort of attitude is part of the reason why Mechwarrior/Battletech was basically dead for such a long time, and why even now this game has a relatively small following. New players are not going to be enticed to play a game because of bits of fluff in long out of print sourcebooks, or a series (badly written) novels. They are going to be attracted to stompy robots first, and then motivated to learn about the lore. I started playing BT nearly 20 years ago when I saw some really cool robot figures at my local hobby shop. I got into mechwarrior shortly after (MW2), read the fiction, played clicky-tech, and so on.

Games need to evolve to attract new players, otherwise they will die.

Using lore or TT for balance is a mistake.
New player: "Why is the balance of this game so bad?"
Battletech veteran: "Well you see in 2784 Alexander Kerensky led the Star League Defense Force in an exodus to the outer periphery..."
New player: *dozes off*
Battletech veteran:"... and that's why the Dire Wolf, or Daishi, is vastly superior to your Atlas. You should really read the Blood of Kerensky Trilogy, then it will all make sense."
New player:"Sure, I'll get right on that." *uninstalls MWO*

See above. Also, there is little use in paying what they are probably paying for the IP of this game and then ignoring it. I believe the only reason this game is still going is because of the IP. I could play mecha in Titanfall and Hawken, but neither of those have any sort of loyalty for years of nostalgia for me. Many people waited years for a game that had certain mechs play like certain mechs and to play in the Battletech world. We will pay for that, we will not pay to play those other more generic mech sims.

[IraqiWalker]

Mercules, on 24 May 2015 - 10:26 PM, said:

Except MWO is based directly off Battletech. Why do we have a mech called a Hunchback? Because it exists in Battletech. Why don't we already have Heavy/Light Gauss and Snub Nosed PPCs? Because by the Battletech timeline they do not yet exist.

Now, if they had more CLOSELY followed Battletech the game would have been better. For one thing, PinPointConvergence is not a thing in Battletech.

Yeah it was. Targeting computers allowed you to do called shots with your weapons. I could focus all my firepower on one section of a mech,as long as I had a TC.

[gloowa]

IraqiWalker, on 24 May 2015 - 10:34 PM, said:

Yeah it was. Targeting computers allowed you to do called shots with your weapons. I could focus all my firepower on one section of a mech,as long as I had a TC.

With a +3 to-hit penalty. Which is huge considering it made you basically unable to hit fast moving mech with all that focus fire, due to +3/+4 target move penalty already in place. let's see. your base skill 4, your move +1, enemy move +3, TC aimed +3. oh. 11. wow. you now have 8% chance to hit on any of those focused weapons. and i didn't even included range in this. For normal moving mechs it's at best 25% chance to hit. gj. Focused as hell.

Oh, and don't forget you can't use multishot/cluster weapons with TC aimed mode.

Edited by gloowa, 25 May 2015 - 02:46 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

gloowa, on 25 May 2015 - 02:44 AM, said:

With a +3 to-hit penalty. Which is huge considering it made you basically unable to hit fast moving mech with all that focus fire, due to +3/+4 target move penalty already in place. let's see. your base skill 4, your move +1, enemy move +3, TC aimed +3. oh. 11. wow. you now have 8% chance to hit on any of those focused weapons. and i didn't even included range in this. For normal moving mechs it's at best 25% chance to hit. gj. Focused as hell.

Still focused fire. You said pinpoint convergence did not exist in BT. I never said it was easy, just that it was there. It worked wonders when used right. For Example, when my Centurion kicked a Warhawk in the knee from behind, and caused it to fall. Pilot couldn't get up. Guess what happened when it was my turn to take a shot at him with all my guns aimed at the rear CT? Sure there was a +3 to hit, but that mech was down, immoble, and I didn't move. Just pointed my guns, and

Spoiler

That's actually pretty accurate to how I felt doing it.

[Nightshade24]

Thorqemada, on 20 May 2015 - 03:03 AM, said:

The Clan XL is a giant advantage also...

Counter arguement from the apposing side:

"The Inner sphere Engine customization is a giant advantage also..."

[Gagis]

IraqiWalker, on 25 May 2015 - 02:50 AM, said:

Still focused fire. You said pinpoint convergence did not exist in BT. I never said it was easy, just that it was there.

No need to nitpick. I am sure you get his point.

4x ML is far far worse than an AC20 in BattleTech. 4x ML is as dangerous as an AC20 for less tons in MWO.

Edited by Gagis, 25 May 2015 - 03:24 AM.

[Ironwithin]

Gagis, on 25 May 2015 - 03:23 AM, said:

...
4x ML is as dangerous as an AC20 for less tons in MWO.

Nope, unless you're dumb enough to stare at your opponents the whole firefight long.

[Brut4ce]

IraqiWalker, on 22 May 2015 - 08:18 AM, said:

What on God's green earth are you talking about? the ERLL (longest burning beam in the clan arsenal at 1.25 seconds) on the Timby jumped up by 15% in burn duration. It went from 1.25 seconds, to 1.4375 seconds. How did that become 4 seconds longer than the IS lasers?

In order for the ERLL to reach a burn duration of 2 seconds, it needs a debuff of exactly 60% (1.25 x 0.60 = 0.75. 1.25 + 0.75 = 2.0). for it to hit 3 seconds it needs a debuff of 240%. NONE of the numbers get that close.

I actually would like someone to provide me with a build that has a debuff of 60%, on either the TBR, or the SCR.




Now that's full of hyperbole, isn't it? They're usable, they deal respectable damage, but they're not as good as IS ACs, for two reasons:

1- Burst fire instead of single shot, so no full PP FLD

2- HSR tends to get a bit loopy with them sometimes.

It's a long way from unusable. Flamers, are about as close as it can get to unusable, and even they have value.

Umm, i hate to break it to you, but C-ERLL has a duration of 1.5s so on a 2 er large 2 med 1 small laser stock TBR build the omnipod quirks increase the duration of the weapons by 15% which means, C-ERLL: 1.5s+15%=1.725 and the C-ER-Medium laser to 1.15+15% = 1.32. Now for a fully tweeked laser Vomit Timberwolf -C with 7 Energy hardpoints the omnipod quirks increase the duration of those weapons by 21% which means C-ERLL 1.5+21% = 1.82s and the C-ER-Medium laser to 1.15+21% = 1.39s

Also i too can pilot LBX10 + Machine guns + srms + flamers loadouts and work with them in PUGS, but does that mean anything?

<S>

[CyclonerM]

Did not bother to read all the pages, did anyone already mention that, while BattleMechs are not supposed to be so easily customizable, OmniMechs are supposed to have locked armor (even values!), engine and structure etc.? Sure, they should be able to mount any pod-mounted equipment, but that would be too much..

[Appogee]

Cmdr Killian, on 20 May 2015 - 02:53 AM, said:

Its pretty much accepted that the ONLY advantage clan mechs have over InnerSphere mechs are their lasers.

The "ONLY" advantage, you say...?

So we're just going to ignore:

• lighter weapons, which enable more weapons and ammo
  
• longer ranges, which enable more damage to be delivered before/circumventing a brawl
  
• LRMs which have no minimum range
  
• Streaks that come in 4s and 6s and have much greater range
  
• Targeting Computers which increase the chance to crit an exposed component
  
• Mix and match omnipods which enable us to put more of our favoured weapons where we want

I can't be bothered in participating in the ongoing Clan whinefest, sorry, if people aren't at least going to at least acknowledge the other actual benefits.

Edited by Appogee, 25 May 2015 - 05:42 AM.

[Tesunie]

In response to OP (As I haven't really read much else here):

Clans are more than just their lasers. I know that CUACs are considered "underwhelming", but they do still work (when hit registration decides to behave itself that is, for the most part). However, I can testify that CUACs work perfectly fine in game, and I do very decent with them (though their jam chance and some pieces of their firing mechanics could use a bit more refinement). You just have to have more skill/better aim with CUACs than you do with IS ballistics.

The only bugs I see with CUACs are:
- They often times seem to jam (even with the Thor C's AC arm's reduction to jam chance) after one burst.
- You can interrupt one burst mid way with your rapid fire second shot, leading to a third shot that is finishing the first volley. This means that an entire "volley/burst" can end up being a single bullet, dealing less damage.
- It seems if you have two UACs on chain fire (to help reduce/prevent jams), that it messes up the firing pattern, actually giving you the same jam chances as without chain fire. (Example: You have a left and right CUAC5. It will fire (jams excluded here) in this pattern. Left, left, right, right, left, left, right, right. This should be left, right, left, right, left, right instead.)


There are also missiles. I find CLRMs to be fairly well off. They are light enough to be able to be slid in as a nice support weapons, which maybe a ton or two of ammo. They work up close as they can far away, which helps you provide some decent indirect "while you get into line of fire" team support, or as the occasional damage booster to your direct fire weapons (even if up close). SRMs and SSRMs seem decent enough. Of course, for a light mech, a SSRM clan mech is a nightmare come real...


AKA: Lasers are not the only weapons Clans have. Just because they are seen as "the best" weapon for clans, doesn't mean other weapons are not available, and that they don't work. (Not saying clan lasers aren't one of the best weapons for clan mechs, mind. Just saying that the other systems aren't so bad that they can't be used either.)

[Tesunie]

Saw your post above mine. Though I tend to agree...

Appogee, on 25 May 2015 - 05:40 AM, said:

The "ONLY" advantage, you say...?

So we're just going to ignore:

• lighter weapons, which enable more weapons and ammo
  
• longer ranges, which enable more damage to be delivered before/circumventing a brawl
  
• LRMs which have no minimum range
  
• Streaks that come in 4s and 6s and have much greater range
  
• Targeting Computers which increase the chance to crit an exposed component
  
• Mix and match omnipods which enable us to put more of our favoured weapons where we want

I can't be bothered in participating in the ongoing Clan whinefest, sorry, if people aren't at least going to at least acknowledge the other actual benefits.

• Lighter weapons are balanced by locked equipment and engines. (But those XL engines can lose a side torso and keep going.)
  
• Smaller crit weapons (except for their ACs it seems?) are countered by locked armor/structure upgrade crits.
  
• Less spots to hide ammo (also countered by free CASE in every component, so just place your ammo with your weapons).
  
• Those no minimum range LRMs do decrease in damage as they get closer. (so that's what happened with the PPC damage reduction! The clans. They stole it for their LRMS!)

Clans also have an advantage most people don't consider:

• They tend to be faster, so they can maintain ranges with greater ease over many IS mechs of the same weight class.
  
• Light clan mechs come with a built in "stay with your team" bonus! (Their slower speeds can often be of good use. They should be filling in the roles of IS medium mechs for clans. Stay near the larger mechs, support them, let them take the fire for you.) (Some joking here, but some seriousness as well.)
  
• Lots of easy to get to ECM omnipods, on lots of different weight classes. (Once again, Omnipods are an advantage! Just ask my "Kit Fox S" with the C omnipod arm for the ECM...)

I actually find that clan mechs are decently balanced, but could still use more tweaks. The nerfs for the Timberwolf and Stormcrow should have been seen as incoming for a while now. They were out preforming all other clan mechs (and IS mechs as well). We can't just buff everything. Sometimes, you have to nerf a few things. Nature of online gaming balancing.

[Tesunie]

Nightshade24, on 25 May 2015 - 03:20 AM, said:

Counter arguement from the apposing side:

"The Inner sphere Engine customization is a giant advantage also..."

You are right. Each are an advantage, which each have balances to even them out (more or less).

Clans have fixed engines, but their XLs can lose a side and keep going. That's a lot of weight savings, for relatively small risk.

IS can change their engine, and can choose XL or Std, as well as size. They can choose weight savings and much greater risk (XL), or heavy and slower engines, but safer (Std).

Consider it as, IS have flexibility in engine, but Clans have Flexibility of Hard Points with fixed engines that can take more abuse.

[Averen]

Not at all. There are some mechs which are a bit punished (Gargoyle, lights), and a timber would be even stronger with an XL350, but in general Clanmechs will always have superior engines to their IS counterparts.
Compare clan XL engine to an IS STD, the weight will always be lower and speed generally be higher. Even a timber's heavy XL375 is the same weight as a STD310.

What is the flexibility to choose between bad engines good, compared to just being forced to use a good one?

Edited by Averen, 25 May 2015 - 07:28 AM.

[Tim East]

IraqiWalker, on 25 May 2015 - 02:50 AM, said:

Still focused fire. You said pinpoint convergence did not exist in BT. I never said it was easy, just that it was there. It worked wonders when used right. For Example, when my Centurion kicked a Warhawk in the knee from behind, and caused it to fall. Pilot couldn't get up. Guess what happened when it was my turn to take a shot at him with all my guns aimed at the rear CT? Sure there was a +3 to hit, but that mech was down, immoble, and I didn't move. Just pointed my guns, and

Spoiler

That's actually pretty accurate to how I felt doing it.

You had a TC in a Cent? Funky. Was it a Da or something?

[Bill Lumbar]

Celtic Warrior, on 23 May 2015 - 08:43 AM, said:

I like how every IS player always reverts back to "maybe you don't know how to pilot your clan mech" but then cries on the forums about nerfing clan mechs because they're to OP. If you IS players would learn how to pilot your IS mechs you wouldn't need to cry on the forums anymore.

And yes I've read your post, doesn't change my what I've said above.

I am in the same boat as him.... yet I have never once complained about Clan mechs being OP....Never. So I think you can strike that BS claim right down where it belongs. I have used Clan AC's on my builds as well, I have had some really nice matches with my Kitfox ages ago with a Clan UAC5. Are they as good as the IS AC's...nope they are not, but they can put down decent numbers in the right hands. As for flamers, I run my ember sometimes with 2 flamers, 2 small pulse lasers, 4 MG's, and it is a amazing combo in the right place right time.

The confusion one can make from blinding and adding heat to heavies and assaults if unreal and the pinpoint damage just from the small pulse's add up fast if you stay out of the engaged mechs firing arc, ummm plus they are blinded by the flamers. If you have a team that is supporting you and focus firing on the mech you are engaging and stay back around 100 meters from that mech, its crazy how fast you can bounce from mech to mech before they even know what hit them. Yeah, the firestarter does have great hit boxes, but the pilot skill is the deciding factor when using that tactic, and as useless as flamers seem to be, they do have uses that are very effective.

Edited by Bill Lumbar, 25 May 2015 - 10:42 AM.