30 replies to this topic

[eFTy]

So the Enforcer is now available for c-bills. I'm quite tempted to get it, as it seems to me it's a nice alternative to the Blackjack (which I kinda hate the look of - reminds me of a dude with pants pulled way too high above the waist).

I'm not sure how varied the configurations are, and the hardpoints seem kinda low on the model.

I'd like to hear what folks who have driven both think of the two. Please feel free to laud and berate both of them.

[xDust]

Oh, Enforcers are out for C-bills? Neat.

They take on different roles. The Blacjack's high mounted arms and general good maneuverability make it good as a flanker/sniper, in my opinion can be a very annoying mech to deal with for this reason. The Enforcer's +5 tons makes it a better brawling medium, with still pretty good maneuverability, so its more for tanking; they seem tough when I fight them.

Edited by xDust, 20 May 2015 - 07:44 AM.

[Nullmancer]

Enforcer's for me definitely feel much more sturdier and the lower slung hardpoints haven't bothered me too much. They move at a good clip with the stock engine and twist pretty good.

The 4R I consider the best variant of the batch, with the cluster of energy hardpoints in the left arm and torso.

The 5D I wish had one more energy hardpoint, I never take advantage of the extra ballistic over the 4R, but it still works fine.

The P variant I truly dislike. It is too limited I feel, at the very least I'd switch a ballistic hardpoint in the left arm for another energy hardpoint, maybe low in the right torso mirroring the existing one to differentiant it from the other Enforcer's. Perhaps reducing the ballistic hardpoints to one in each arm for the extra energy hardpoint and more jumpjets. Having a maximum of two jumpjets on the P is ridiculous.

Visually, I wish the head was more like the concept art and squished into the torso's a bit. I also find the torso to appear to be bulkier then it needs to be. The size is good, pretty much the same compared to the Vindicator, which is a nice size for a 45 ton mech, which is at least smaller then the Centurion. I would personally like to see the 50 and 55 ton mechs to be re-scaled based on the Enforcer chassis.



Blackjacks are surprisingly capable. The feel squishy, but they only have a 5 ton deficit compared to the Enforcer. It's probably the wide torso's and lack of lower arms that are to blame. The high mounted hardpoints in a line across the arms and upper torso's is quite good, peeking over cover allows all, (or most in the case of the 1DC and Arrow), of your Blackjack's weapons to fire clearly without exposing a lot of your mech. The stock engine involved is much too slow, using a 225 or 235 is heartily suggested and will move the Blackjack at a decent speed and will twist great.

The BJ-1 and -3 have a better twist range then the others, with the BJ-1 having a mix of ballistic and energy hardpoints, The -3 having all energy. The 1DC gives extra energy hardpoints low in the side torso's at the cost of jumpjet capability. The 1X has many energy hardpoints and can fit a much higher rated engine then the other Blackjacks and also has no jumpjets. The Arrow has extra ballistics in its arms and an extra energy hardpoint low in its center torso.

Visually, I feel the Blackjack to be a bit wider then it should be. I also think the life preserver belly thing should be a bit higher and in line with the protrusion of the center torso, it would have no real effect on gameplay except for slightly reducing the silhouette at the center mass. I would also sit the arms further back at the shoulder, but that's a really minor quibble.



Having played both for some time, I do have a preference for the Blackjack, as it is my favorite mech in and out of game.

Simply put, If I want to feel a little fragile, shoot strongly from behind cover and be a little more flanky and fire from unusual angles and places, I go Blackjack.

If I feel like being tankier, working closer with the group and have a nice 'deliberate' feel to my gameplay, I use the Enforcer.

Edited by Nullmancer, 08 July 2015 - 01:00 AM.

[eFTy]

That's a very nice analysis, Nullmancer. It's left me wanting both even more. AND you reminded me of th Vindicator, another mech that's been tempting me to fill some mech bays. How do you feel about that one? I've not seen lots of praise for the poor thing :/

[capt hungry]

I finished mastering my Blackjacks this past weekend. I have the BJ-1DC, BJ-1(C), and the BJ-3. I run XL engines and I like the speed and maneuverability they possess. They can be fragile as has been mentioned, but I really enjoyed them. I've had some decent high damage, high XP drops with them.

I mounted dual PPCs on the 3 and with the quirks, I can fire fairly often before overheating. The champion variant I left stock and the 1DC is more or less the same, minus two ML.

Starting to drive my Enforcers now and have thoughts on builds. The 5D I've left stock and added more UAC ammo, and I am still getting a feel for it. I look forward to getting to know them and find builds that suit me.

Edited by capt hungry, 20 May 2015 - 04:49 PM.

[Nullmancer]

eFTy, on 20 May 2015 - 12:15 PM, said:

That's a very nice analysis, Nullmancer. It's left me wanting both even more. AND you reminded me of th Vindicator, another mech that's been tempting me to fill some mech bays. How do you feel about that one? I've not seen lots of praise for the poor thing :/

Vindicator's... Vindicators. They should be better then they are I feel. They have really good PPC quirks but I think they should also have the acceleration/deceleration and turn rate quirks that Panther's, Centurions and Locusts have. They also look really cool, especially the legs. That stupid-looking left arm though...


The AA is, I feel, the best variant, with good landspeed and many jumpjets. The 1R is decent, having many energy hardpoints but unfocused. The 1X is a distant last with too many ballistic hardpoints and not enough energy.

I've heard they are quite tanky with standard engines in them, I've only used XL's in mine. They also all have amazing twist and can effectively shoot behind themselves.

Also, a nice thing to consider if you own Blackjacks as well is that both mechs share engine size limits, with a maximum of 235 for most of the variants and 295 for that one faster variant of either chassis.

Some of the complaints I recall are poor turning radius on the AA, that ******** rock 'em sock 'em left arm, The unfocused nature of the energy hardpoints and the feeling that every variant should have another missile hardpoint, even the St Ives, which I've never played btw. That single missile hardpoint feels pretty much useless to me and so I end up leaving that hardpoint empty. I mentioned the left arm right?.

I think I've shot more dirt with Vindicator's then any other mech I believe. The arm hardpoints are low slung, with only the head energy hardpoint and left torso missile being high. Regularly piloting the Blackjack may be to blame for that, as due to the fantastic line of high hardpoints, I'm used to ventilating whatever I can see .


Honestly, I feel that I'm not really a good choice to analyze the Vindicator for you. It's been a long time since I regularly piloted them and I never really gave them much of a shot. I just don't know the chassis as well as the Blackjacks or Enforcer's I own.


Mebbe I'll play 'em this week and get back to you.

Edited by Nullmancer, 20 May 2015 - 10:49 PM.

[ShinVector]

BJs are better than Enforcers in my opinion.

[White Bear 84]

4R gauss rifle and 5 medium lasers. Killer.

Also have the BJ's, the 1X is nuts. 103kph with six mpl.. ...pew pew pew pew disco disco disco 4.3 sust dps, ce of 38%. You just run around like a madman and for some reason everyone ignores you then wonders how you got 5/6kills and 800+ damage...

Edited by White Bear 84, 20 May 2015 - 10:56 PM.

[Nullmancer]

Guass and 4 Med's with a 235 XL was good times in my 4R , lately run it as AC 10, 5 med laser with 250 XL.

Edited by Nullmancer, 21 May 2015 - 03:46 PM.

[juxstapo]

[shakes head]

Blackjacks all the way. Simple because of those high mounts. And the 1x is perma-slotted into my CW deck.

[Nullmancer]

I dusted off the Vindicator 1R and played a few matches and promptly sold it wondering why I ever re-purchased it.

I still own the AA.

[eFTy]

Well, the Clan sale has thrown a spanner in my plans to get another Medium. I was looking to get the Hellbringer for a while now, and the sale is too good to pass up...

And I'll probably get the Enforcer, Vindicator and Blackjack, too. Eventually. I seem to buy mechs faster than I can master them...

[ShadowbaneX]

The 5P is fine if you play to it's strengths, namely uAC/5s. I ran it mostly stock adding in 4 more tons of ammo while removing the useless spare double heat sinks* and upping the armour to just below max. I think I downgraded the engine to an XL235 I had when I did Ravens.

Once I got speed tweak I dropped the engine down to an XL200, added the heat sinks back to get to 10, added another 1.5t of ammo and upped the SL to an ML...yeah, it's still mostly useless save for just a little bit of extra damage...but that's a step up from feeling utterly useless with just the SL. Could it use more energy slots? That's debatable, although it might be nice for that extra bit of damage, I'm on the side of 'no'.

Thing is, you've got a pair of IS uAC/5s and that's enough to chew through anything on the battlefield if you're a little lucky.

I am amused by the opinion that the 4R is the best simply because it has the highest number of energy hard points. My preference for the 5D (the typical LB-10/X & 3 MPLs), simply because that autocannon is quirked to hell.

[TimePeriod]

I recently purchased the Enforcer-5P for c-bills and conjured up a selection of builds based on my experience with 'Mechs focused on ballistic hardpoints. So far it has been very entertaining.

I built my Enforcer-5P around some XL-engines which I already had laying around the Mechlab. Namely the 225, 255 and the 280 rated engines.

With my XL255-engine I used two UAC/5 autocannons, a medium laser and 5½ tons of ammo. It served me well as long as I picked my shots a little carefully.

Another combination with the same XL255-engine was 3 AC/2 autocannons and 6½ tons of ammo. Worked pretty well as direct fire-support.

Using the XL255-engine again, with two AC/5 and all the spare tonnage to ammo.

This 'Mech has a lot of options, I cammed all manner of autocannons or combined the single energy-hardpoint with a ppc or a large laser for prolonged engagements.

Its a good 'Mech.

[Nullmancer]

It can work, I cannot doubt that, I just prefer some degree of flexibility and variation with the mechs I run. To me, the P can pretty much run one build optimally for the chassis, 2x UAC, med laser, but even that has issue's. So colour me unimpressed.

Also, the 2 jump jet limit bothers me on different levels. I like jump jets, I don't like trying to jump jet to a ledge which would be EZ PZ on a different Enforcer and failing.

It is also a disconnect from stock mech construction Ideals in CBT. Very, very few mechs that have jump jets have less then the maximum their travel speed would allow, I can only think of the Shadowhawk and the SHD normally has 3/5's of its possible jump jet capacity. The ENF-P has 2/5's. That is bad mech design and it would almost be better to have none at all.

but this ain't CBT as we are all aware. As it stands the only useful use of the jump jets for the ENF-P is to assist in getting over the irritating ground clutter that trips up your mech. I'm also sure they have been removed by many user's to squeeze in more ammo.

what I would do is add one more jumpjet at least. Obviously more would be better, but at a sheer minimum one more would probably enable the ENF-P to effectively maneuver over ledges and help with positioning to get those guns to bear.


as for the 4R, it has it all. efficient amount of jump jets, multiple energy hardpoints as back up to your autocannon, enough energy hardpoints that you could ignore the ballistic hardpoint entirely, enabling a tanky short ranged standard engine build or a longer ranged poking design both with decent speed and a entire side of your mech to soak damage with. Gauss build is pretty strong with a bundle of med lasers alongside. Also, keeping mechs in cover by chain firing groups of lasers is a possible tactic as well. The 5D doesn't quite manage to do these things so well with it's few energy hardpoints.

so yeah, many consider the 4R to be the best variant, for good reason.

That is not to say the 5D and P are terrible, but the 4R sets the bar with the Enforcer chassis.

[ShadowbaneX]

Then primary criteria that decides if a mech is good or not shouldn't be "how many energy hard points does it have?"

[Nullmancer]

more like how many advantages does it have over the others

[Papapeshu]

Just started on Enforcers with the 4R (AC10, 5ML, 2JJ, XL260)
It's a wrecker alright! I might even swap the AC10 for the Gauss after a few games.

I do find it hard to compare the two though as Blackjacks were my first mechs back in open beta before the AC20 was nerfed to oblivion and I sold all my BJ's to free up bays for other chassis to master.

My favorite mech is the Jagermech because of it's high ballistic hardpoints.
So it's nimble little brother is a clear winner for me out of these two chassis.
....even if it does look like a forties gangster see, wiseguy? MEAAHH!

[Papapeshu]

.....also looking at the Enforcer in my mechbay, what's that hole between it's legs?
Is it fully dilated and about to give birth to an Urbie??

[NRP]

I feel like the BJ packs more of a punch. I bought the Enforcer pack, but I find the chassis to be underwhelming.