125 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

A DDC with a brawler build and a big engine will actually wreck a DW up close...the issue for most is closing the gap.

no it cant all the daishi has to do is take out its side torso.

the Atlas has a similar problem the hunchback did before the hunchback got quirks. the Atlas' AC20 is poorly protected and very easy to take out. And once that happens its firepower is a joke.

Edited by Khobai, 22 May 2015 - 06:41 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Khobai, on 22 May 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

no it cant all the daishi has to do is take out its side torso.

That's not really an argument. All anyone has to do to kill another mech is take out it's CT.

Khobai, on 22 May 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

the Atlas has a similar problem the hunchback did before the hunchback got quirks. the Atlas' AC20 is poorly protected and very easy to take out. And once that happens its firepower is a joke.

In close range (and I mean CLOSE, like 300 meters or less close). The Atlas has the advantage because it can actually use it's arms for damage rolling. Every single time I've seen an Atlas roflstomp a DWF has been at extremely short range, where the AC20+3xSRM6s alpha just demolishes the Daishi. The DWF has to go through over 300 points of armor just to get to the CT on the Atlas, while the Atlas has to go through a lot less than that. Because the DWF has almost no way to shield with it's arms, and it's CT is bigger than mount Everest.

True, the DWF will almost always have more firepower than the Atlas, however at short range, the DWF is insanely slow, has no arm movement, small torso twist range, and immense heat issues.

[Gyrok]

Flutterguy, on 22 May 2015 - 02:12 PM, said:

Gyrok, if you're so confident that clans have comparatively worse lasers can you prove it to me using the IS small laser and the clan small pulse laser? Any metric will do (DPS, DPH, etc). I find 2 IS small lasers vs. 1 c-spl to be a very easy point of comparison.

You picked the single Clan laser that is actually more efficient. You also picked one with a range of ~150m

[Flutterguy]

Gyrok, on 22 May 2015 - 08:04 PM, said:

You picked the single Clan laser that is actually more efficient. You also picked one with a range of ~150m

Actually most clan lasers are more efficient. It's just that those two lasers are the easiest to see the clan superiority since so many metrics match up. Most clan lasers do the same damage in the same duration as their IS counterparts, but do more damage if given more face time and they almost all have a 50% range advantage. So in an absolutely equal peek time clans will at least trade evenly but will usually trade better against comparable IS lasers. The only balancing factor is that Clan Lasers still generate heat for all the damage they do even if they don't use it.

Also, I find it surprising that you're pointing out the range considering you tend to minimize the importance of the range advantage that the clans innately get.

[Gyrok]

Flutterguy, on 22 May 2015 - 09:23 PM, said:

Actually most clan lasers are more efficient. It's just that those two lasers are the easiest to see the clan superiority since so many metrics match up. Most clan lasers do the same damage in the same duration as their IS counterparts, but do more damage if given more face time and they almost all have a 50% range advantage. So in an absolutely equal peek time clans will at least trade evenly but will usually trade better against comparable IS lasers. The only balancing factor is that Clan Lasers still generate heat for all the damage they do even if they don't use it.

Also, I find it surprising that you're pointing out the range considering you tend to minimize the importance of the range advantage that the clans innately get.

No, they do not match up...at all.

The CSPL is the most heat to damage efficient weapon in the game, with a heat per damage of 0.5, meanwhile, the ERML is behind only to the CERLL (0.909 heat per damage) and PPC family, and their 1.0+ heat per damage at 0.857 for the ERML.

Point being, that you cherry picked the one laser clans have that is not absurdly hot...even then, it has a longer burn duration than the IS LPL at 0.85 seconds for 6 damage versus the 0.67 second burn on the IS LPL that does 11 damage.

Also, with significantly shorter beam durations, IS has much less face time, meaning they will win as many trades as they lose. Clan pilots must be outright better to out trade IS mechs in their optimal range. Especially in scenarios where sustained DPS is the key metric.

The range difference is huge, because clans do not have an advantage anymore...the 5SS TDR has 911m ERLLs. Clans at best can get 814m out of theirs with range 5 modules. With a TC7 they only get to ~850m. This means we are out poked at long range, and out DPS'ed up close.

Where are clans supposed to be even with the IS? As I see it...that seems to be nowhere.

[Nightshade24]

FupDup, on 22 May 2015 - 10:06 AM, said:

I know, let's give the Clans a special ECM Kraken variant! I can't see how that could ever possibly backfire, nope it'll be completely 100% fine guise.

No one would take the ECM kraken.

I will have by kraken with 12 machine guns and 2 gauss rifles with a standard 400.
12 machine guns is over 10 damage per second FYI... for 0 heat... keep that in mind if we're on terra therma.
(Note: the stock kraken has 10 UAC 2 and 4 mg's... the other variant has like 6 LRM 15's and a SSRM 4)

[bad arcade kitty]

65 tons 'heavy' with ecm, no mediums with ecm no assaults with ecm

and what they answer (after is received a 70 tonner with ecm) 'don't escalate power creep'? what a bs

[Flutterguy]

Gyrok, on 22 May 2015 - 10:38 PM, said:

No, they do not match up...at all.

The CSPL is the most heat to damage efficient weapon in the game, with a heat per damage of 0.5, meanwhile, the ERML is behind only to the CERLL (0.909 heat per damage) and PPC family, and their 1.0+ heat per damage at 0.857 for the ERML.

Point being, that you cherry picked the one laser clans have that is not absurdly hot...even then, it has a longer burn duration than the IS LPL at 0.85 seconds for 6 damage versus the 0.67 second burn on the IS LPL that does 11 damage.

Also, with significantly shorter beam durations, IS has much less face time, meaning they will win as many trades as they lose. Clan pilots must be outright better to out trade IS mechs in their optimal range. Especially in scenarios where sustained DPS is the key metric.

The range difference is huge, because clans do not have an advantage anymore...the 5SS TDR has 911m ERLLs. Clans at best can get 814m out of theirs with range 5 modules. With a TC7 they only get to ~850m. This means we are out poked at long range, and out DPS'ed up close.

Where are clans supposed to be even with the IS? As I see it...that seems to be nowhere.

Behold! Evidence that given equivalent face time most clan lasers trade evenly with their counterpart IS lasers. I should do this for comparable ranges though. Which should be more advantageous for the clans. As is comparing IS-LPL with C-LPL is fairly misleading. Anyways IS do have some advantages in MPLs surprisingly enough, though personally I think they're too range limited for a proper peek exchange.

Duration|Damage|Additional Duration|Additional Damage
IS-SPL 0.5 4
C-SPL 0.5 4 0.25 2
IS-MPL 0.6 6
C-MPL 0.6 5.6 0.25 2.4
IS-LPL 0.67 11
C-LPL 0.67 7.8 0.46 5.2
SL 0.75 3
C-ERSL 0.75 3.75 0.25 1.25
ML 0.9 5
C-ERML 0.9 5.5 0.25 1.5
LL 1 9
ER-LL 1.25 9
C-ERLL 1.25 9.2 0.25 1.8

Also I'm not disputing that clans run hotter, heat is their only real balancing factor and it's somewhat mitigated by the weight and crit slot advantages of clan weapons and heat sinks.

Edit: apologies for the messy table. I had a pretty one that didn't work and I don't want to spend the time to fix it at the moment.

Edited by Flutterguy, 22 May 2015 - 11:09 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Nightshade24, on 22 May 2015 - 10:41 PM, said:

No one would take the ECM kraken.

I will have by kraken with 12 machine guns and 2 gauss rifles with a standard 400.
12 machine guns is over 10 damage per second FYI... for 0 heat... keep that in mind if we're on terra therma.
(Note: the stock kraken has 10 UAC 2 and 4 mg's... the other variant has like 6 LRM 15's and a SSRM 4)

Only other mech I'm really waiting for aside from the Piranha, and the Hammerhands.

bad arcade kitty, on 22 May 2015 - 10:42 PM, said:

65 tons 'heavy' with ecm, no mediums with ecm no assaults with ecm

and what they answer (after is received a 70 tonner with ecm) 'don't escalate power creep'? what a bs

If you're going to say the CTF-0X is as good, or better than the Hellbringer, I would ask you to double check the numbers. The Hellbringer is very good. ECM, great hitboxes, good shield arms, and good firepower.

[bad arcade kitty]

hellbringer and good hitboxes don't go together

[Nightshade24]

IraqiWalker, on 23 May 2015 - 02:23 AM, said:

Only other mech I'm really waiting for aside from the Piranha, and the Hammerhands.


If you're going to say the CTF-0X is as good, or better than the Hellbringer, I would ask you to double check the numbers. The Hellbringer is very good. ECM, great hitboxes, good shield arms, and good firepower.

It's a mixed situation ere'.

I personally would take the cataphract over as an ECM boat. however it is arguebly less meta due to the fact the hellbringer has 4 high E hardpoints-ish and the cataphract only has 1 mid-low ballistic as it's highest...

[LegOLess]

I figure this is a long shot bit still worth mentioning.
Iron Cheetah config D. Plausible Clan assault within timeline with ECM. Thoughts?

[Elizander]

You don't want it on a 100 tonner or that'll eat up all your CW tonnage.

[IraqiWalker]

Nightshade24, on 23 May 2015 - 03:11 AM, said:

It's a mixed situation ere'.

I personally would take the cataphract over as an ECM boat. however it is arguebly less meta due to the fact the hellbringer has 4 high E hardpoints-ish and the cataphract only has 1 mid-low ballistic as it's highest...

Which is why I'm saying the HBR is better, that and the better hitboxes, and shield arms on the HBR.

LegOLess, on 23 May 2015 - 04:23 AM, said:

I figure this is a long shot bit still worth mentioning.
Iron Cheetah config D. Plausible Clan assault within timeline with ECM. Thoughts?

Iron cheetah? I've never heard of that. Are you possibly referring to the Arctic cheetah?

Elizander, on 23 May 2015 - 06:48 AM, said:

You don't want it on a 100 tonner or that'll eat up all your CW tonnage.

Right now it might be a problem, but when we have more clan mechs, I can easily see a 100 ton ECM assault, + 2x60 tonners + Fire Moth as a possible drop deck.

[bad arcade kitty]

google says iron cheetah it's some non-canon design

also conal ward used a gargoyle with ecm it's 100% in the time line... except it would be pretty trolly since baka conal had ecm in the central torso i.e. not easy switchable. he also had a light tag there i.e. a torso energy slot. pgi can make ecm in the head slot though...

some other assaults had ecm versions too, turkina x for instance

[Strum Wealh]

IraqiWalker, on 23 May 2015 - 04:16 PM, said:

Iron cheetah? I've never heard of that. Are you possibly referring to the Arctic cheetah?

I'm pretty sure that this is what's being referenced.

Not only is a non-canon fan design, but its own description indicates that it wouldn't show up until 3054.

[Nightshade24]

IraqiWalker, on 23 May 2015 - 04:16 PM, said:

Which is why I'm saying the HBR is better, that and the better hitboxes, and shield arms on the HBR.

However cataphract has better abilities at ballistics and larger energy due to quirks and hardpoints. Also superior agility and jumpjets...

Etc... both of them has different sstrengths.

[Khobai]

Quote

In close range (and I mean CLOSE, like 300 meters or less close). The Atlas has the advantage because it can actually use it's arms for damage rolling.

The atlas never has an advantage over a daishi at any range unless the daishi player is really bad or has a bad build.

Daishis do like straight up twice the dps of an Atlas. Thats not even an exaggeration either. They seriously do like twice the DPS.

[IraqiWalker]

bad arcade kitty, on 23 May 2015 - 05:22 PM, said:

google says iron cheetah it's some non-canon design

also conal ward used a gargoyle with ecm it's 100% in the time line... except it would be pretty trolly since baka conal had ecm in the central torso i.e. not easy switchable. he also had a light tag there i.e. a torso energy slot. pgi can make ecm in the head slot though...

some other assaults had ecm versions too, turkina x for instance

Making an Assault hero that is the only variant of it's chassis with ECM can cause problems, and many a cry of "P2W", so I think they might do something like what you suggested.

Khobai, on 23 May 2015 - 06:02 PM, said:

The atlas never has an advantage over a daishi at any range unless the daishi player is really bad or has a bad build.

Daishis do like straight up twice the dps of an Atlas. Thats not even an exaggeration either. They seriously do like twice the DPS.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the Daishi has a DPS advantage over the Atlas, However, it still has to go more than twice the armor that the the atlas has to go through for the kill, especially since the Atlas is more mobile than the Daishi. In close range, tiny shifts in movement can throw the Daishi's aim off.


I'm not saying the Atlas will walk out just fine and dandy. In a clash between those two mechs I expect the winner to barely walk out.

EDIT: A Daishi doing twice the DPS of an Atlas is gonna be shutting down FAST. If it doesn't get the kill before the shutdown, it's dead.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 23 May 2015 - 06:28 PM.

[Chuanhao]

The two assaults that will probably be up for wave 4 would be Kingfisher, Turkina.

The Turkina is a walking weapons platform. The clan lacks this as most of the current assaults trade firepower for mobility. So its a mech the clans need.

I agree that the Kingfisher would be a good choice and well suited to have the ECM. But very light in weaponry due to standard engine. Plus point is that it wil be at IS Cbil prices.

all in all, I think Turkina would be the better choice. But if the point is "balance", the addition of ECM to counter the lack of pod space on the Fisher is a good trade