40 replies to this topic

[Mr Hunter]

T.L.D.R; Laser boats are awful to fight against however giving the IS all the wubs and giving the Clans none is a bad idea. If the quirk system has to stay it needs to be generalized and not so specific.

OK so I really hate the whole Laser vomit meta crap. Its not fun to use not fun to fight it needs to be gone. Yet it seems that the Inner Sphere is getting all the laser boats (crab. wolfhound, black knight etc.) and the clans are getting their teeth kicked in cw. Why? Because they cant use lasers at all! This is not a solution its just broken in so many ways, ya sure the cooldown nerfs have the counter argument of helping with heat but what about the duration? I can cook a five course meal eat it and come back, my lasers will still be firing. I already made a post about what I want done with quirks ( here; http://mwomercs.com/...99#entry4452399 ) but the issue remains, firestarters and thunderbolts dominate the battlefield because one there meta and two because they have massive alphas that they can dish out one after the other thanks to the duration/ cooldown buffs. What I would like to see and if PGI really wants diversity they need to encourage a jack of all trades build style. If the quirk system has to stay (please no) that means generalized quirks.
Again this is just my thoughts on how to make sense of this, also as a side note whats going to happen ( see already has) is clan heavy pilots are either spamming ecm (12 man hbr company) or they are just lrm boating (6 mad dogs 6 spotters) and the stormcrow pilots are just streak/ srm boating.

Edited by B8hunter, 24 May 2015 - 02:07 PM.

[StraferX]

I like lasers and do not find them to be very unbalanced at all between IS and clanners but that is just my take.

I would like to se the quirk system get completely scrapped as it is a lame fix to poorly made weapon system that does not work. We need the skill tree fixed so people can specialize, we need role warfare implemented but we will never fix this argument until we have stock mechs and a multiple choice drop deck.

What I mean by that is you go to queue and select say medium, in your drop deck you can have either 2 or 3 medium mechs to chose from depending on the map you get dropped on. each mech is a stock configuration and only affected by your skill tree specialization. Your specialization should reflect the end game bonus you receive like if you are a scout specialist you get +bonus for tag/narc uav and holding targets. This would make this a real tactical thinking mans game and not a lame F2P cash grab shooter.

[Mr Hunter]

I hear you but I don't see restricting people to stock mechs as a solution, remember mwo is all about the custonization

StraferX, on 24 May 2015 - 03:25 PM, said:

I would like to se the quirk system get completely scrapped as it is a lame fix to poorly made weapon system that does not work. We need the skill tree fixed so people can specialize, we need role warfare implemented but we will never fix this argument until we have stock mechs and a multiple choice drop deck.

I hear you but I don't see restricting people to stock mechs as a solution, remember one of mwo's biggest selling points is the mech customization as I said just encourange a jack of all trades play style, then people would have to decide, do I want lrms or srms? ac 5 or ac20, they have to decide what will blend together the best for them personally.

[Juodas Varnas]

I'd vote to increase Laser Duration for everyone across the board.
IS included.

Also, working on an actual heat scale with penalties would be nice

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 25 May 2015 - 08:38 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Personally I'd increase the damage loss for lasers when they fire beyond the max. range so that brawling has a chance to come back and increase the laser duration a little bit (then have a look at the metrics) to give weapons with velocity an even playground. I think the laser spam won’t stop for a myriad of reasons in its current state for those reasons (repost from another thread):

• Range

The deviation from the TT when it comes to range is problematic at least. Brawlers and light mechs can easily be fired at before they are even near and get softened up before they are even in range to retaliate. What advantage has a softened up brawler then in close range?



The damage reduction for surpassing max. range doesn’t help much because several mechs are usually spamming, especially in CW. And what do they lose? No ammo, nothing. Except they gain some heat which is also no problem because they can simply move into cover.

• Easy useable

Just click and do some damage. Jup, it can be spread and all, however, you do damage. The burn time where you expose yourself is also no issue compared to e.g. ACs or PPCs.


Take a (ER)PPC for example:
You are in cover, peek out, now you have to locate your opponent, figure in velocity (most enemies move after all) and fire. On the sickening ranges lasers are still accurate, you have to be pretty good to hit anything and also need your time to evaluate when to fire. In this time you are exposed.
Also: good luck twisting during this time

• ECM

Without the red square it is harder locating, and judging the movement of a target. Adding to the time you need to expose yourself to assess when the time is right to fire. Again, lasers don’t care for the movement aspect.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 25 May 2015 - 08:48 AM.

[Mr Hunter]

you want brawling?

Bush Hopper, on 25 May 2015 - 08:44 AM, said:

Personally I'd increase the damage loss for lasers when they fire beyond the max. range so that brawling has a chance to come back and increase the laser duration a little bit (then have a look at the metrics) to give weapons with velocity an even playground. I think the laser spam won’t stop for a myriad of reasons in its current state for those reasons (repost from another thread):

you want brawling? Add physical combat. WHO DOES NOT WANT TO FIST FIGHT IN MECH!? Also the Atlas would have a niche agian, which is nice also the clans would then have to use their range advantage, as they don't have the fists of the atlas or the hunchie.

[FupDup]

My general thoughts:

1. Some modest nerfs to Clan lasers are in order (I would focus on reducing their alpha-strike power).

2. IS Small Laser is trash.

3. IS Large Laser is sub-par without quirks.

[Mr Hunter]

Ya that about sums it up. Also the damage values are not lore so... theres that.

[Burktross]

FupDup, on 25 May 2015 - 12:53 PM, said:

My general thoughts:

1. Some modest nerfs to Clan lasers are in order (I would focus on reducing their alpha-strike power).

2. IS Small Laser is trash.

3. IS Large Laser is sub-par without quirks.

Agree with everything except for C-Laser nerfs across the board. It'd only hurt the clan underachievers more than the good clam mechs.

[Juodas Varnas]

Burktross, on 25 May 2015 - 01:08 PM, said:

Agree with everything except for C-Laser nerfs across the board. It'd only hurt the clan underachievers more than the good clam mechs.

Well, once you nerf them across the board, you can give the underachievers some quirks to offset the nerfs at least to a degree.
I mean, if we're stuck with the whole quirks-as-bandaids system, might as well use it

[Burktross]

Juodas Varnas, on 25 May 2015 - 01:10 PM, said:

Well, once you nerf them across the board, you can give the underachievers some quirks to offset the nerfs at least to a degree.
I mean, if we're stuck with the whole quirks-as-bandaids system, might as well use it

Thing is, the majority of clan mechs are underachievers. More efficient to simply nerf the toptier mechs (if at all).

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I've look at beam duration before.

Could Tier according to type, ER, Regular and Pulse by damage per tick so ER has the longest and Pulse has the shortest:



And being instant hit-scan, this might be a reasonable point, to then see quirks boost up under achievers as needed.

And the reason I only looked up to 16 damage is the Clan Heavy Lasers being one that goes to 16 damage from a single weapon.

[Mr Hunter]

Guys I appreciate your thoughts on lasers ( i.e the whole point of this thread) the quirk system is horribly broken and needs to be either redone entirely or replaced quirks are not the answer. I don't see quirks making things better or worse I see quirks either making a mech godlike (tdr-5ss/fs9-a) or making a mech useless ( ryoken /mad cat).

[x Marder x]

Give lasers a min range and max range.
For IS

Means medium lasers from 0-100 meters doing 0 up to 4 dmg at 100-300 meters doing 5 dmg and from 400-600 doing 4 up to 0 dmg.

Let's say the focus of lances fro lasers are not set for such close encounters and they don't do max dmg.

For Clans

Because being more advanced set ranges closer.


So lets say IS mechs can't boaut only one range of weapons and cover from medium to close range with incredible daka.

[Mr Hunter]

WHAT?! min range? for lasers? really?

[FupDup]

Burktross, on 25 May 2015 - 01:08 PM, said:

Agree with everything except for C-Laser nerfs across the board. It'd only hurt the clan underachievers more than the good clam mechs.

I see what you're saying, I really do, but what I'm getting at is comparing a Clan laser on a fully optimized Clan mech to an IS laser on a fully optimized IS mech. When we give both sides a "perfect storm" mech, the Clan one has the advantage.

The problem is just that some Clan (and IS) mechs don't get lucky with an optimized base chassis. Even then, equipping those mediocre Clan mechs with IS tech would make them even worse. Just imagine a Mist Lynx with all of its equipment swapped to IS tech.


Part of this also has to do with Clan Battlemechs down the line... Any time somebody makes a thread about them, the general consensus is that they would be OP in most cases. Right now, the Omni restrctions are the only thing holding back Clan technology. If the underlying technology itself wasn't directly better, then we theoretically wouldn't have to worry about Clan Battlemechs who are customized like IS Battlemechs. But since it is, we do. :\


There are just some pieces of equipment that are too good right now, i.e. the Clan XL. If we leave these items super powerful to "compensate" for sub-par mech construction, then we have a situation where well-constructed mechs become dominant very quickly. We already see this with the classic 3-4 top Clan mechs. Soon there will be 2-3 more mechs on that list. Depending on Clan Wave 4's composition, it might get expanded a bit further. The "Trinity" isn't going to be just a trinity forever.

If we have to keep adding negative quirks to any Clan mech that doesn't have a poorly designed base chassis, I think that's a telltale sign of something wrong behind the scenes.


...And yes, the ones who do get sub-par construction do need assistance of their own as well.

Edited by FupDup, 25 May 2015 - 02:43 PM.

[Quxudica]

Any change to lasers, IS or Clan, is just going to be yet another bandaid. What's needed is a complete overhaul of the heat system. Max heat threshold needs to be reduced significantly, heat dispersion per second increased and performance penalties need to be added for staying to hot for to long. Such a system reduces alpha strike spam which serves as an indirect buff to weapons like the PPC and the push toward dps over spike would encourage the use of underweighted weapon systems like AC's.

Simultaneously this would indirectly buff mech survivability, making chassis without god-tier hitboxes far more viable. A chief reason the Crow was so powerful was not it's damage dealing capability, it was it's damage soaking capability - most mediums just cannot deal with the sheer amount of instant damage being flung around, many have hitboxes that allow complete and easy destruction of entire components in a single alpha.

MWO has a lot of problems, but a significant number of them would be addressed if they would just admit the simplistic heat system needs to be completely replaced.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Convergence + heatcap + heat Penalties --->> Dead horse over this way.

[Burktross]

FupDup, on 25 May 2015 - 02:34 PM, said:

I see what you're saying, I really do, but what I'm getting at is comparing a Clan laser on a fully optimized Clan mech to an IS laser on a fully optimized IS mech. When we give both sides a "perfect storm" mech, the Clan one has the advantage.

The problem is just that some Clan (and IS) mechs don't get lucky with an optimized base chassis. Even then, equipping those mediocre Clan mechs with IS tech would make them even worse. Just imagine a Mist Lynx with all of its equipment swapped to IS tech.


Part of this also has to do with Clan Battlemechs down the line... Any time somebody makes a thread about them, the general consensus is that they would be OP in most cases. Right now, the Omni restrctions are the only thing holding back Clan technology. If the underlying technology itself wasn't directly better, then we theoretically wouldn't have to worry about Clan Battlemechs who are customized like IS Battlemechs. But since it is, we do. :\


There are just some pieces of equipment that are too good right now, i.e. the Clan XL. If we leave these items super powerful to "compensate" for sub-par mech construction, then we have a situation where well-constructed mechs become dominant very quickly. We already see this with the classic 3-4 top Clan mechs. Soon there will be 2-3 more mechs on that list. Depending on Clan Wave 4's composition, it might get expanded a bit further. The "Trinity" isn't going to be just a trinity forever.

If we have to keep adding negative quirks to any Clan mech that doesn't have a poorly designed base chassis, I think that's a telltale sign of something wrong behind the scenes.


...And yes, the ones who do get sub-par construction do need assistance of their own as well.

Thing is, I feel that if we nerf clanners by default anymore we'll either get
A ) "Easy Mode" for IS will become a reality
B ) Clantech and IS Tech will become one and the same

Edited by Burktross, 25 May 2015 - 03:09 PM.

[FupDup]

Burktross, on 25 May 2015 - 03:08 PM, said:

I feel that if we nerf clanners by default anymore we'll either get
A) "Easy Mode" for IS will become a reality
Clantech and IS Tech will become one and the same

IS quirks could be reduced in some cases if need be, given that most of them were jacked up specifically to fight the best Clan robots.

I'm aiming for something along the lines of "different but not better," i.e. different weapon playstyles/mechanics/strengths/weaknesses without either side being overall better.