90 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Alistair Winter, on 26 May 2015 - 04:12 AM, said:

I think it's possible to increase Time To Kill while still making the AC20 and Gauss hurt as much as they do now. Just increase cooldown. This would make AC20-builds rely more on backup weapons (e.g. Atlas with lasers and missiles) whilst reducing the current trend of brawlers using sniping weapons (i.e. gauss rifles) to get higher DPS. The gauss rifle should, in my opinion, be a sniper rifle. It should not be a good option for a brawler.

But yeah, all the good solutions have been mentioned already. Change the heat system, increase internal structure, completely rework the crit system. Death in MWO should be more gradual. You start overheating, your mech gets more sluggish. You start losing actuators, you start losing weapons... ammo explosions... red lights, smoke, Betty listing warning after warning and finally, it's over.

Death is far too instant in this game, for my liking. Components fly off like people are being instagibbed by rocket launchers in Quake 1.

Good post.

Gauss used to be a great weapon for brawling, that short cooldown has tempered the ability to snap off a haymaker though.

[Koniving]

speleomaniac, on 26 May 2015 - 12:41 AM, said:

What are you saying is right, if very limitited of platforms can carry that weapon systems. So you pay a penalty for carrying that system, you are either too slow, too vulnerable.

Actually what I think he was implying is that the mechanics from battletech which prevented mass single-area impacts are not here, allowing for mass weapons to hit one place.

Damage over time is the primary reason for BT's RNG; not every weapon is fired at the same time (in fact most are not) and thus the damage spread.

The weapons not being fired at the same time in Battletech can be due to a number of reasons including:

• Limited heat threshold at any single second (tabletop's 30 + cooling is due to 10 seconds of action [attacking, aiming, cooling, moving, dodging, jumping, hotwiring the control console, etc.] being compressed into a single summary).
  
• Damage delivered are at ratings of up to 10 seconds, or depending on rules ratings of 5 seconds (where most guns in MWO fire on a 4 second or less principle).
  
  • With 10 seconds worth of damage and given the huge variety of weapon variants, literally hundreds to thousands of weapons could be created from the base stats with fairly unique feels, massively increasing potential meta variety. Of course this would mean an AC/20's damage would be 20 damage within a 10 second period. A large laser would be X damage in a 10 second period, with (1/2 or 1/3rd)X damage per actual shot. Very easy to restore 1x armor/internals and dramatically increase the value of standard engines and fewer weapon systems. Can easily be set up for a 5 second period as well.
• Lack of pinpoint instantaneous convergence.
  
  • PPIC is a horrendous issue in MWO which is one of the largest enablers of mass pinpoint damage.
    
  • Admittedly, tabletop does suffer tremendously from pinpoint damage per individual weapon. Example.

That's just a couple of the reasons.

Edited by Koniving, 26 May 2015 - 11:45 AM.

[Artifact]

If the developers had introduced a small amount of uncertainty about where a shot goes based on movement, heat, and damage (ala the Rainbow Six series) then none of the crap they added in would be necessary.

Instead, we have a craptacular game where people are able to fire multiple GRs and AC20 rounds on the same location, over and over. The people who cried that 'player skill should be all that matters' are morons -- it takes all sorts of player skill to manage heat, movement, and deciding whether or not to target center mass or a specific location based on the situation.

They wanted a twitch shooter, not a simulation, and they won. Everyone else lost.

Edited by Artifact, 26 May 2015 - 05:38 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Redo heat system, lower ranges to 1x.

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

Tweaking symptoms won't cure the problem, only make more. Pinpoint Convergence as other have said previously is what needs to change in order to adjust TTK.

I'd argue the main reason we have quirks, double armor, and ghost heat is because PGI won't address convergence. Why they'd rather spend more time tweaking issues rather than a fraction of the time fixing it... I don't know, unless its outside of programming capability or scope.

[Felbombling]

Most of the problems with this game are all core mechanic related. The heat system is too forgiving, we don't have enough ammunition per ton to stock mixed weapon load outs, pin-point alpha strikes overwhelm even doubled armour values. They tried to fix these and several other issues with Band-Aid applications like ghost heat or quirks. I look at the game now and it must be a convoluted mess for a newer player to get into.

A serious lack of forethought allows for simple weapon quirks to immediately be twisted into alpha-striking monstrosities... and whack-a-mole rolls on. I think PGI is so hell-bent on allowing the players as much freedom as possible in the Mech Lab that they have lost sight of the fact that those same allowances will prevent game balance from ever being achieved.

[Corbenik]

I think since Lore is already gone, the least they could do is add the Armor types of Reactive and Reflective. that does reduce damage for those types of weapons.

PGI could say "Well since we made IS up to par with clan tech technology for armor developed at a faster pace than usual for both sides." now people wont really field laser boats or ac boats and would have to mix and match. since the situation would vary.
but yes I know its way downs the timeline. but i think they should just bite the bullet for this. that way even if its a "Band-Aid" it wont affect it so much as adding a whole new weapon system. and reduces ttk for certain builds.

[speleomaniac]

Joseph Mallan, on 26 May 2015 - 04:09 AM, said:

I don't know about you, but packing more guns is the whole point of having an assault. You can wade in and Wump wump wump, 3 dead opponents. Timing is everything of course

I came from other MMOs that I played mostly the tank role, I enjoy protecting my follow players, when I got my first Atlas, men that was a shock.

3 Alpha's and I was done for it, a 100 ton mech should be more then that don't you think. I don't think you would built 100 tons monster to die to 3 shots.

Only way I can protect my fellow players in my Atlas in the current state of the game is just to kill others faster, not by soaking damage for them.

[Team Chevy86]

More defensive equipment options.
Less tonnage for weapons.
Higher TTK.

In theory

[Almond Brown]

El Bandito, on 26 May 2015 - 01:44 AM, said:

That will actually buff dual AC20, and weapons like Gauss will not be touched. Did you even give this a thought?

And your point El? The AC20 is already HOT when fired in pairs. More Heat is more Heat for ALL. The Gauss has 1 Heat, 2 Heat would not be an issue and it would have 2X like every other weapon so no cries of favoritism.

No one complains about the AC20 (short range) or Gauss (30 pt Apha' plus some limited backup) due to their heavy weight and slots. It is every other GD weapon that gets packed on Mechs that make the game time TTK more limited than it could be. (imo)

[topgun505]

Reduce or eliminate the quirks (Only give quirks to far inferior chassis that REALLY need them, and still only minor).
Eliminate instant pinpoint convergence (insert alternative here).
Reduce heat cap.
Increase heat dissipation
(Maybe) increase DHS to be truly 2.0 heat
Eliminate all heat related skill in the basic skills
Eliminate speed tweak in the elite skills.
Implement hardpoint sizes as a way to force/nudge mechs into more specific roles instead of using quirks.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

Decrease RoF globally by 20%. Its the easiest thing that will work. Going down with TTK to pre modules and quirk era.
Of course doing something with pin point massive alphas its something that should be fixed, but obviously they don`t want to touch that.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Carrioncrows, on 26 May 2015 - 12:26 AM, said:

cutting damage in half would dramatically change how everything works. Easier to just double armor

lol eventually we'll be giant squares of armor sliding around the battlefield

Whatever happened to convergance? Theres still a skill for it in the tree

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 26 May 2015 - 07:26 AM.

[Mirkk Defwode]

Koniving, on 26 May 2015 - 05:07 AM, said:

Actually what I think he was implying is that the mechanics from battletech which prevented mass single-area impacts are not here, allowing for mass weapons to hit one place.

Damage over time is the primary reason for BT's RNG; not every weapon is fired at the same time (in fact most are not) and thus the damage spread.

The weapons not being fired at the same time in Battletech can be due to a number of reasons including:

• Limited heat threshold at any single second (tabletop's 30 + cooling is due to 10 seconds of firing time).
  
• Damage delivered are at ratings of 10 seconds, or depending on rules ratings of 5 seconds (where most guns in MWO fire on a 4 second or less principle).
  
  • With 10 seconds worth of damage and given the huge variety of weapon variants, literally hundreds to thousands of weapons could be created from the base stats with fairly unique feels, massively increasing potential meta variety. Of course this would mean an AC/20's damage would be 20 damage within a 10 second period. A large laser would be X damage in a 10 second period, with (1/2 or 1/3rd)X damage per actual shot. Very easy to restore 1x armor/internals and dramatically increase the value of standard engines and fewer weapon systems.
• Lack of pinpoint instantaneous convergence.
  
  • PPIC is a horrendous issue in MWO which is one of the largest enablers of mass pinpoint damage.

That's just a couple of the reasons.

I'm starting to feel like I need to create a mega spreadsheet taking the TT values for weapons and converting them to a consistent time scale to demonstrate this principle for weapon tuning and variations based off that time scale and some mechanical functionality.

[LordKnightFandragon]

StaggerCheck, on 26 May 2015 - 06:23 AM, said:

Most of the problems with this game are all core mechanic related. The heat system is too forgiving, we don't have enough ammunition per ton to stock mixed weapon load outs, pin-point alpha strikes overwhelm even doubled armour values. They tried to fix these and several other issues with Band-Aid applications like ghost heat or quirks. I look at the game now and it must be a convoluted mess for a newer player to get into.

A serious lack of forethought allows for simple weapon quirks to immediately be twisted into alpha-striking monstrosities... and whack-a-mole rolls on. I think PGI is so hell-bent on allowing the players as much freedom as possible in the Mech Lab that they have lost sight of the fact that those same allowances will prevent game balance from ever being achieved.

Ballistic weapons are supposed to be as limited by ammo as Lasers are by heat. Heat is supposed to be as much a system to be managed as anything, sadly, like you said, PGI has no clue what they are doing or where they want this game to go.

SO yeah, I personally think ammo on cannons and missles should be 1x, so yeah, 8 shots per gauss instead of 10, 10 shots per AC10 instead of 15......but like wise, heat should be at about 40-50 points max, no additional threshold.

You use missiles and cannons when your lasers are to hot and lasers when your cannons are either low on ammo or out of ammo.



As for PPD, I would love to try a CoF mechanic in this game. Players would QQ about it just becoming kisswarrior online as mechs get to knife fight range to avoid CoF, but still, it would alleviate the issue to a degree. I would make the CoF less noticeable, or none at all, if you fired 1 or 2 weapons at a time, but if you rapid fired off weapons or group fired alot of weapons, that is when you would notice the heavy bloom. But if anyone has PLayed Planetside 2 and used a LMG after firing a steady burst of maybe 10-12 rounds and how your rounds hit near the target or in the outer portions of the target, but dont hit dead center? That is about all the worse I personally would make it. Enough to pretty much remove large PPD alphas and to also help convince people to fire slower and fewer weapons overall, helping with what I would make as a 40-50 point heat scale.

[Joseph Mallan]

speleomaniac, on 26 May 2015 - 06:48 AM, said:

I came from other MMOs that I played mostly the tank role, I enjoy protecting my follow players, when I got my first Atlas, men that was a shock.

3 Alpha's and I was done for it, a 100 ton mech should be more then that don't you think. I don't think you would built 100 tons monster to die to 3 shots.

Only way I can protect my fellow players in my Atlas in the current state of the game is just to kill others faster, not by soaking damage for them.

Cause There is no healing in this game thats why. no regen no potions its just You your armor and thats it. Tanking only works in a Game where someone is a ranged damager or DPS, tank and healer. Do you see any MedMechs in the lists?

100 ton Mechs have died quickly under heavy fire for 30 years. In both TT and the MW series.

[Joseph Mallan]

Koniving, on 26 May 2015 - 05:07 AM, said:

Actually what I think he was implying is that the mechanics from battletech which prevented mass single-area impacts are not here, allowing for mass weapons to hit one place.

Damage over time is the primary reason for BT's RNG; not every weapon is fired at the same time (in fact most are not) and thus the damage spread.

The weapons not being fired at the same time in Battletech can be due to a number of reasons including:

• Limited heat threshold at any single second (tabletop's 30 + cooling is due to 10 seconds of firing time).
  
• Damage delivered are at ratings of 10 seconds, or depending on rules ratings of 5 seconds (where most guns in MWO fire on a 4 second or less principle).
  
  • With 10 seconds worth of damage and given the huge variety of weapon variants, literally hundreds to thousands of weapons could be created from the base stats with fairly unique feels, massively increasing potential meta variety. Of course this would mean an AC/20's damage would be 20 damage within a 10 second period. A large laser would be X damage in a 10 second period, with (1/2 or 1/3rd)X damage per actual shot. Very easy to restore 1x armor/internals and dramatically increase the value of standard engines and fewer weapon systems.
• Lack of pinpoint instantaneous convergence.
  
  • PPIC is a horrendous issue in MWO which is one of the largest enablers of mass pinpoint damage.

That's just a couple of the reasons.

The underlined is not accurate. It isn't 10 seconds of firing on TT. Its 10 seconds of maneuvering, firing AND venting of heat... for both sides!

Since this is real time a turn can be literally be cut in half, including venting time.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 26 May 2015 - 08:27 AM.

[stjobe]

Joseph Mallan, on 26 May 2015 - 08:26 AM, said:

The underlined is not accurate. It isn't 10 seconds of firing on TT. Its 10 seconds of maneuvering, firing AND venting of heat... for both sides!

Since this is real time a turn can be literally be cut in half, including venting time.

Sure, but that is actually part of the problem.

PGI cut firing rates by roughly 1/3 (and in the case of the AC/2 down to 1/20), but they kept heat dissipation rates unchanged. They also kept damage and heat values unchanged from TT.

Which means that MWO weapons have about three times the DPS and HPS as their TT counterparts, while dissipating at the same rate as those TT counterparts.

Triple DPS pin-point accurate, instantly converging, front-loaded damage? Yeah, it breaks the armour system. They had to double internal structure values (and thereby armour) to compensate, because TTK was ridiculous with single armour values.

Why they didn't just simply cut damage and heat values by the same ratio as they increased rate of fire is beyond me, but I regard that as perhaps the gravest design mistake in a long line of epic-scale design mistakes in this game.

And yeah, I know Joe is going to say "buh-buh-buh then my AC/20 won't do 20 damage per hit! I want my big hammer!" - to which I say, come off it Joe. You're fine with your lasers doing their damage over a duration (they did it all in one hit in TT, same as your precious AC/20), but can't stomach the same treatment for other weapons?

The "20" in AC/20 is "kilograms of ammo thrown downrange in ten seconds" according to lore - it doesn't say it has to be in one single projectile; in fact it explicitly says it isn't, for any known AC.

Bah, lured into another MWO vs TT mechanics discussion again. It's like honey to a bee, I swear...

Edited by stjobe, 26 May 2015 - 08:44 AM.

[Mirkk Defwode]

Joseph Mallan, on 26 May 2015 - 08:26 AM, said:

The underlined is not accurate. It isn't 10 seconds of firing on TT. Its 10 seconds of maneuvering, firing AND venting of heat... for both sides!

Since this is real time a turn can be literally be cut in half, including venting time.

Or Doubled...quadrupled if you felt it was right.

It's a matter of perspective and how you want the mechanics to break down.

All it does is create a time scale to work from - then you can develop your mechanics in the means you want for how gameplay should "feel"

[Mirkk Defwode]

stjobe, on 26 May 2015 - 08:41 AM, said:

...

Bah, lured into another MWO vs TT mechanics discussion again. It's like honey to a bee, I swear...

This feels like going back to our old discussion for Lasers bettering Ballistics.

And again I think it goes back to appropriate time scale, then variance in manufacturer differences.