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May Be It Is A Good Idea To Reduce The Weapon Damage


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#41 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 08:49 AM

View PostMirkk Defwode, on 26 May 2015 - 08:41 AM, said:


Or Doubled...quadrupled if you felt it was right.

It's a matter of perspective and how you want the mechanics to break down.

All it does is create a time scale to work from - then you can develop your mechanics in the means you want for how gameplay should "feel"

Most fights I've been in is a whirlwind if chaos and then its over... Now those fights haven't included much gunfire, but combat like what MechWarrior is supposed to be about is either furious or patient so which do you want?

I like being in a whirlwind of excitement more than I do dying to paper cuts.

#42 Mirkk Defwode

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 09:01 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 26 May 2015 - 08:49 AM, said:

Most fights I've been in is a whirlwind if chaos and then its over... Now those fights haven't included much gunfire, but combat like what MechWarrior is supposed to be about is either furious or patient so which do you want?

I like being in a whirlwind of excitement more than I do dying to paper cuts.


I like a bit of both - and it's funny how some other F2P games have achieved this appropriate mix where planning and positioning pay off for a rapid furious exchange leading to either death or victory.

Right now much of the fighting in MWO feels more like Napoleonic tactics or engagements - you have your Riflemen lined up in the front, some artillery pieces off to the side, and the masses clash into each other.

Reconnaissance has a little value in the sense of letting you know where to mass up and form your lines but isn't an overall requirement. Light mechs could be seen doing the role of cavalry and harassing the flanks but don't serve that same effect as breaking the lines full...most of the time...depends on how many decide to chase the rabbit.

Either way positioning beyond going to the best high point on the map is all people do. there are the "bowls" that we're engineered to fight in through the map design and very little that is unpredictable in many of the fights.

Albeit much of this is my opinion and observations on the game and it's engagements. Though this perspective does jade my attitude toward a lot of the gameplay because of my recollection of MW4 having more variety in what you could do. Take Palace Gates from MW4 - you could send mechs with jumpjets around the edges of the walls to leap over into the enemy flank and then fight amongst the buildings. Skirt one edge into the vehicle hangers or the other edge into the Spaceport. The tiered areas of the map and the wide spread disposition of the spawn even had combat in the central areas up the middle and the addition walled sections there. In the years playing that game and the fact the map launched with MW4: Vengeance it had a variety of strategies and capable means of engaging the opposition.

The current MWO map doesn't doesn't feel as fluid...or at least it's harder to get people out of the rut for going the exact same route every single time.

I think some of that behavior boils down to map design as much as weapon mechanics. No one is willing to walk in the open for a little bit as they get extremely chewed up if not killed so rapidly - so open spaces aren't utilized for maneuvering beyond the first 90 seconds of most matches. People become entrenched in positions with cover doing the poke and hide mechanics for the same reason they're torn up really fast. This is in comparison to MW4.

#43 topgun505

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 09:01 AM

Yeah if you want to look at time issues look at any AC2 or an AC5 (especially on a Dragon 1N). In TT those weapons were only marginally useful or not at all. But how many volleys can those weapons get off in 10 sec in MWO? I've seen a number of Dragon 1Ns going around with pretty much nothing but 2 AC5s and just wrecking everything. That would have been laughable in TT.

Yeah, PGI should have looked at cooldown first as far as weapon balancing, but that seems to be the one thing they are absolutely loathe to do for some reason.

#44 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 09:06 AM

Quote

Reconnaissance has a little value in the sense of letting you know where to mass up and form your lines but isn't an overall requirement.
I miss the days of awesome scouting. (PRE ECM). Where a quick scout could apply eyes on and let his 3 Missile toting pals unleash hell!

Quote

I think some of that behavior boils down to map design as much as weapon mechanics. No one is willing to walk in the open for a little bit as they get extremely chewed up if not killed so rapidly - so open spaces aren't utilized for maneuvering beyond the first 90 seconds of most matches.
All due respect, but this shows that the player base actually has better than 2 brain cells to use man.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 26 May 2015 - 09:08 AM.


#45 DaZur

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 09:06 AM

Posted Image

Weapons dispense too much damage... HSR is crap and only half the damage registers... PPD is ruining the game... Alphas are ruining the game... Pop-Tarts are ruining the game... VoIP is ruining the game... Lasers are to prominent... Ballistics are too prevalent... Teamwork is OP... ECM is too powerful... Clans are too powerful... IS is to powerful... Quirks ruined the game... DoT is ruining the game blah...blah...blah.

Did I miss anything?

Edited by DaZur, 26 May 2015 - 09:16 AM.


#46 Yokaiko

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 09:11 AM

There is no point playing with weapon damage or heat AS LONG AS EVERY WEAPON ON A MECH HITS THE SAME PIXEL

Fix....by fix I mean erase....instant pinpoint convergance and you probably don't even need double armor anymore.

#47 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 09:13 AM

View PostYokaiko, on 26 May 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

There is no point playing with weapon damage or heat AS LONG AS EVERY WEAPON ON A MECH HITS THE SAME PIXEL

Fix....by fix I mean erase....instant pinpoint convergance and you probably don't even need double armor anymore.

I am a full tilt Alpha supporter. I am a full tilt Convergence hater. I am in full support of your opinion. :) B)

View PostDaZur, on 26 May 2015 - 09:06 AM, said:

Posted Image

Just so I could like Herman again!

#48 Koniving

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 11:03 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 26 May 2015 - 08:26 AM, said:

The underlined is not accurate. It isn't 10 seconds of firing on TT. Its 10 seconds of maneuvering, firing AND venting of heat... for both sides!

Since this is real time a turn can be literally be cut in half, including venting time.

Correct (and I think you would probably know I know this; if this Invasion Wave I versus Phoenix fight is any indication; especially when the Summoner and Nova begin fighting the Thunderbolt, Battlemaster and Shadowhawk). I short-handed it because rushing to get it out before having to leave to help the now-live-in girlfriend to find some local jobs.

I'll make sure to slip in an edit to help avoid the confusion.

Also, for random food for thought... Two real time versions of a tabletop-esque cooling system designed to keep a 1:1 scale here. Sadly couldn't find the original thread with it, but that does have it.

#49 FupDup

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 11:35 AM

View PostDaZur, on 26 May 2015 - 09:06 AM, said:

Posted Image

Weapons dispense too much damage... HSR is crap and only half the damage registers... PPD is ruining the game... Alphas are ruining the game... Pop-Tarts are ruining the game... VoIP is ruining the game... Lasers are to prominent... Ballistics are too prevalent... Teamwork is OP... ECM is too powerful... Clans are too powerful... IS is to powerful... Quirks ruined the game... DoT is ruining the game blah...blah...blah.

Did I miss anything?

My favorite contradiction is this:

Mech X's hitboxes are too good! I can't kill it in one alpha strike!
...The TTK is way too low! Mechs are dying left and right in mere seconds!

Lel.

#50 MechWarrior5152251

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 11:41 AM

This would further separate the elites from the underhive.... The elite skill of shooting a side torso would become more valuable while the sprayed damage of the underhive would make killing anyone nearly impossible...

#51 Koniving

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 11:46 AM

View PostMirkk Defwode, on 26 May 2015 - 07:36 AM, said:


I'm starting to feel like I need to create a mega spreadsheet taking the TT values for weapons and converting them to a consistent time scale to demonstrate this principle for weapon tuning and variations based off that time scale and some mechanical functionality.

Make sure to share it with me. I could use a bit of filler for my own.

#52 Moldur

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 11:49 AM

Revert to closed beta? :)

#53 Pathos

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 12:01 PM

View PostMoldur, on 26 May 2015 - 11:49 AM, said:

Revert to closed beta? :)


This and double the cool down rates.

#54 Yokaiko

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 12:04 PM

View PostFupDup, on 26 May 2015 - 11:35 AM, said:

My favorite contradiction is this:

Mech X's hitboxes are too good! I can't kill it in one alpha strike!
...The TTK is way too low! Mechs are dying left and right in mere seconds!

Lel.


All while screaming about Timber and Stormcrow being to tanky.

ROLL MOFOS ROLL!!1!11!1!!!

#55 ArchSight

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 12:04 PM

View PostMechWarrior5152251, on 26 May 2015 - 11:41 AM, said:

This would further separate the elites from the underhive.... The elite skill of shooting a side torso would become more valuable while the sprayed damage of the underhive would make killing anyone nearly impossible...


No, it won't make less skilled player's have impossible time killing mechs because not all weapons spread damage. They'll find the instant hit damage weapons and use those instead of the longer track time weapons if they can't track aim well. They can also use newbie friendly lock on weapons like LRMs , sense; they'll have brawlers that can spot mechs for them and can be supported on the battle feild because they don't die instantly to a teams constant alpha strike shooting.

This game can be played a different way besides alpha striking all the time. It has almost everything in it already that a player wants. It just needs to stop being out done by constant and mass shooting alpha strikes.

A balanced MechWarrior Online is where the alpha strikes are not used all the time.

EDIT: Oh look, I mentioned it also creates a few roles to do on the battle field. Does anyone want Role Warfare?

Edited by ArchSight, 26 May 2015 - 12:29 PM.


#56 Pjwned

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 12:05 PM

View PostKiiyor, on 26 May 2015 - 02:20 AM, said:


I vote for vastly increased internal structure, and a fleshed out crit system that actually means something.

I'd love for components to be hit and lose effectiveness as they are damaged. Longer burn times for lasers as they malfunction, chance of jamming for regular ballistics, engine power surges for damaged engines, random leg lockups for damaged actuators...


I don't know if I agree with just increasing internal structure a buttload, but having a proper crit system would be great. The first couple steps for having a decent crit system would be to get rid of the ridiculous auto-crit when breaching armor, give internal equipment health values that actually make sense instead of setting everything to 10 health so that ammo packs are as durable as 12-ton autocannons, and making ammo explosions ACTUALLY MATTER EVER instead of being the most unlucky occurrence possible and thus not really worth considering; more adjustments could come after that as needed.

Edited by Pjwned, 26 May 2015 - 12:08 PM.


#57 Jetfire

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 12:15 PM

Scaling heat penalties. We need this most of all to reduce the TTK. The higher your heat the longer your CD's and the lower your top speed.

#58 Pjwned

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 12:19 PM

View PostFupDup, on 26 May 2015 - 11:35 AM, said:

My favorite contradiction is this:

Mech X's hitboxes are too good! I can't kill it in one alpha strike!
...The TTK is way too low! Mechs are dying left and right in mere seconds!

Lel.


Well, it does kind of suck if the mech you're piloting has terrible hitboxes and most of your mech is yellow except for 1 or 2 vital components while you see a mech spreading damage everywhere from your shots like how it should be.

The proper answer is to rework dozens of mechs so they're not so overly huge, but PGI has clearly made a decision to dig themselves so deep into that hole that it will never EVER be viable to climb back out.

HSR can also be an issue on particular mechs and that just makes things worse.

Edited by Pjwned, 26 May 2015 - 12:25 PM.


#59 topgun505

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 12:57 PM

Have to call you out on this one (or, at least, clarify). You are taking those complaints out of context.

You can have those exist at the same time because they are not referring to the same units.

What units have absurd hitboxes? FSRs for sure. Maybe Spiders. The only other ones that even remotely stand out may be the STs of the TBR and CPLT.

You pretty much will never get instagibbed in those. But yes with the alpha quantities we have most other mechs can be cored or one shotted with a single alpha.


View PostFupDup, on 26 May 2015 - 11:35 AM, said:

My favorite contradiction is this:

Mech X's hitboxes are too good! I can't kill it in one alpha strike!
...The TTK is way too low! Mechs are dying left and right in mere seconds!

Lel.


#60 Weeny Machine

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 12:59 PM

They should not nerf the overall weapon damage. They should increase the damage degradation beyond max. range. This would break up the current pattern of:
big alpha - big alpha - walk into cover - cooldown - rinse repeat

The TTK would go up and more melee oriented mechs wouldn't be soften up too much before they are in range





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