74 replies to this topic

[Kristov Kerensky]

Joe, while I personally agree with you that some people just ain't meant to be MechWarriors, that's not a good attitude to take for the life of the game, so I have to ditch it and look at the commercial side. I HATE doing that, as it means having to agree that some of PGI's decisions I consider total CharlieFranks are actually good calls, and that just..man...ugh. I'd rather face a SEAL with my hands tied behind my back after he's been told I called his mom something really nasty, I really would, but reality is, PGI has made some good commercially viable calls.

A tutorial, despite the fact that it won't make people GOOD at this game, will allow them to learn the basics, and that's all it needs to do, teach the basics. Facing vs direction of travel, weapons grouping, arm vs torso target reticules, weapon ranges and what they mean, heat, ghost heat(a MUST since it's NOT part of anything anywhere outside of MWO!), LRMs and locks, Streaks and locks, SRMs and no locks. Basics, things you and I Joe, we don't think about because we're BTech players first, and we've played the previous MW video games, they are just automatics for us. Were they automatic when we first played a MW video game however? I know the facing/direction of travel messed with me the first time I ever dealt with it, but that was in the 80s playing a particular arcade video game, so I was already familiar with the practice and NOT just the concept before I ever played a MW video game.

A tutorial won't teach the advanced stuff, it can't, there's just too much, this isn't CoD after all, it's got a lot more going on at all times than CoD ever gets close to. It can teach the basics however, and that's what stops a lot of new players from sticking around, the basics. They don't get why they can't hit someone with a medlas at 800m, they can SEE them, so why the hell can't they shoot them? Why don't these stupid LRMs work? And so on, little things, but those little things quickly add up to a negative experience.

[Sir Wulfrick]

Carcass23, on 26 May 2015 - 08:38 PM, said:

I am not suggesting that a nice tutorial with a friendly voice over to instruct you in the basics isn't warranted or needed. However, the way people describe these learning disabled new players who cannot fathom how to look at the settings in the game and see what keyboard options are available or look at the forums for assistance, these are the same people who do not have the patience to sit through a boring tutorial. Just saying..

I understand the sentiment, and it's sadly true, but the people who have that sort of issue are the last people who should be playing MWO. If COD or similar fits their needs then more power to them, but I think that probably a majority of players, and certainly a majority of the original founders, would like to see MWO become the "thinking mans shooter" rather than a COD-with-robots twitch game. MWO != Quake.

Frankly if players are unwilling to undergo a tutorial and understand the differences between the ways in which a mech moves and the ways in which a "person" avatar moves then they should expect to be crap at the game.

Not sure how PGI feels about this, but the last thing I want is for MWO to be simplified down any further.

Edited by Sir Wulfrick, 27 May 2015 - 12:34 PM.

[masCh]

Yes and the tutorial would not be reading a manual on a screen, it will be interactive, and it will encourage some practical training with scripted feedback. It will be fun in a way. It will get you through the basics, which surprisingly is annoying enough to throw people off.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kristov Kerensky, on 27 May 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

Joe, while I personally agree with you that some people just ain't meant to be MechWarriors, that's not a good attitude to take for the life of the game, so I have to ditch it and look at the commercial side. I HATE doing that, as it means having to agree that some of PGI's decisions I consider total CharlieFranks are actually good calls, and that just..man...ugh. I'd rather face a SEAL with my hands tied behind my back after he's been told I called his mom something really nasty, I really would, but reality is, PGI has made some good commercially viable calls.

A tutorial, despite the fact that it won't make people GOOD at this game, will allow them to learn the basics, and that's all it needs to do, teach the basics. Facing vs direction of travel, weapons grouping, arm vs torso target reticules, weapon ranges and what they mean, heat, ghost heat(a MUST since it's NOT part of anything anywhere outside of MWO!), LRMs and locks, Streaks and locks, SRMs and no locks. Basics, things you and I Joe, we don't think about because we're BTech players first, and we've played the previous MW video games, they are just automatics for us. Were they automatic when we first played a MW video game however? I know the facing/direction of travel messed with me the first time I ever dealt with it, but that was in the 80s playing a particular arcade video game, so I was already familiar with the practice and NOT just the concept before I ever played a MW video game.

A tutorial won't teach the advanced stuff, it can't, there's just too much, this isn't CoD after all, it's got a lot more going on at all times than CoD ever gets close to. It can teach the basics however, and that's what stops a lot of new players from sticking around, the basics. They don't get why they can't hit someone with a medlas at 800m, they can SEE them, so why the hell can't they shoot them? Why don't these stupid LRMs work? And so on, little things, but those little things quickly add up to a negative experience.

A game can die if there aren't enough players to sustain it. I would rather MW:O die today, than become a hand holding shadow of a game because Money!

Well teh Med/Laser says what 380m range and is red when the target is 500m away. I'm no genius but I'd say its enough to know I can't use that weapon now!

LRMs may be a little more involved. But how dumb does the game have to be made to make it all users friendly? AND will we like it when it has reached that level?

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 28 May 2015 - 05:59 AM.

[masCh]

A tutorial isn't meant to dumb the game down though.

Taking your driver's license test is not about dumbing the traffic system down for you, it is about getting you up to speed to meet the standards of the traffic system.

[Joseph Mallan]

masCh, on 28 May 2015 - 06:06 AM, said:

A tutorial isn't meant to dumb the game down though.

Taking your driver's license test is not about dumbing the traffic system down for you, it is about getting you up to speed to meet the standards of the traffic system.

I just had to take a "refresher test" to avoid points for failure to Stop.

Whats knowing the clinical term for the effects of mixing drugs got to do with driving? Or What the technical name for road rage is?

I'm not against a bootcamp for new players. But really the game is not hard.

WASD to move

Right mouse Left Mouse to fire weapons. If I fire to much I'll shut down. Shutting down is bad.

A printable "Key Card" for new players would be really helpful!

[Scyther]

Aphoticus said:

"If the goal is to groom competative players out the gate then they might has well put all the energy into a PVE content where a little bit of everything is introduced through mission-style objectives that touch on every aspect rather than 'JUST' a tutorial."

(sorry, quote doesn't seem to work for me)

Very much agree. From the players I have shown the game to, torso/leg alignment, weapon grouping, heat/shutdown, and managing range/weapon mix have been the key issues.

Take a look at World of Tanks intro tutorial: it is interactive (not just a video). "This is your tank. This key moves forward. Now turn your turret with the mouse. Target the object to your right with the R key. Press LMB to fire at it." That sort of thing. DO the actions as they teach it, show how the HUD works, a little extra highlighting of things like tank direction vs. gun/turret direction.

Same with the EVE tutorial series, walks you through each aspect by making you DO it.

If, as Aphoticus said, you had some repeatable PvE tutorial/mission combos (more feedback/direction than Training Grounds), new players could get a feel for the game before they stumble out on the battlefield and get chopped down like practice dummies.

Two tutorials (Taking your Mech into battle, and MechLab/Customizing), plus 2 guided-action PvE missions would probably suffice to intro new players to all the mechanics and let them get some practice in.

Lastly, the OP's idea of doing a 'background intro' while downloading is a great one. Most successful games have a story/role setting that is a big part of you mentally fitting yourself into the game and picturing a niche or goal for yourself beyond "shoot things til dead". (Because let's face it, if that's your only hook you will get buried under the 500 other games that do that)

"The Future of War", "Inner Sphere Factions", "The MechWarrior-Light/Med/Heavy/Assault", "The Clans" would probably cover it, give some story, a little bit of light/med/heavy/assault philosophy/tactics, allow showing some flashy graphics (always a bonus) and get them a little intro in the Factions/IS/Clans tug-of-war that is the basis for the whole setting.

Without spending some development/graphics time on backgrounders/tutorials, MWO is going to be judged SOLELY on its merits as a modern shooter. I don't think it will come out of that comparison looking too hot.

Look at the videos some of the player base has produced (Phoenix Legion, for one). If the *players* can produce videos like that - PGI looks pretty sad if they can't knock out a couple themselves.

(Note: all the videos should be playable/replayable from inside the game)

Edited by MadBadger, 28 May 2015 - 11:04 AM.

[Carcass23]

What about the Training Grounds section of the webpage? It's been ignored completely and I am wondering why? There are also in game tutorials, why are they not mentioned? I imagine someone will say, "They suck!" What exactly will improve them? They do in fact, teach what you need to know to play the game.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 May 2015 - 05:56 AM, said:

A game can die if there aren't enough players to sustain it. I would rather MW:O die today, than become a hand holding shadow of a game because Money!

Well teh Med/Laser says what 380m range and is red when the target is 500m away. I'm no genius but I'd say its enough to know I can't use that weapon now!

LRMs may be a little more involved. But how dumb does the game have to be made to make it all users friendly? AND will we like it when it has reached that level?

Do you remember when you first played BattleTech? Were you able to just pick it up and go? Now, today, if someone wants you to play BattleTech, do you need to re-read all the stuff you read all those years ago? However, if you want a friend who's NEVER played BattleTech to join you today, do you just hand them some dice and tell them 'it's easy, you'll be fine?' or do you have them read the manual a bit to figure out what's going on?

Same thing here for MWO, some of us know what we're doing, we've been doing it for decades. Others have NEVER done anything like it, so they need that help to figure out what the hell is going on.

This is MWO, it's not CoD or Quake or any of the other FPS games out there, it doesn't play like them, you don't do things like you do in them, so they really don't prepare you for playing MWO. Knowing WASD doesn't mean you can figure out facing AND direction of travel. Seeing the weapons on the screen with the range and group doesn't tell you what those mean, especially since very few games today HAVE weapon ranges that actually mean anything. As I said, my grandson did NOT understand why he couldn't shoot someone with his medlasers when he could SEE them on the screen, ALL of the video games he plays allows you to hit what you can see, from CoD to Borderlands, if you can see it, you can hit it. MWO, that's not how it works, and that confuses the hell out of people who have some video game background.

And lets keep in mind something else Joe, most people playing video games do NOT see anything but what's in the middle of the screen where the reticule is. They don't notice the minimap, they don't see the NARC warning, ECM warning, hells man, they don't even see the Atlas standing to their left while they fire on the neutered Raven directly in front of them and they call HAX! because a weaponless Raven is doing damage to them. Not an exaggeration btw, I've seen that happen more than a few times, few players have anything even remotely like situational awareness, and few pay attention to anything but what's under the reticule, because in most FPS games, that's the only thing that matters besides your health, so they just don't pay any attention, it's not needed and they've never learned to do otherwise.

MW games really are a different critter from standard FPS genre games, there really IS a lot more going on at all times than you deal with in them. New players need to be made aware of that BEFORE they get tossed into the fire, WE got that training years ago, remember? The tutorials for MW through MW4...I know I went through them, so I figure you did too because they weren't optional

[Tyler Valentine]

Great job. Another advantage would be the universe immersion from learning some of the lore, 'mounting your 'mech' and the voice acting that would be required to guide you through the training. This game has absolutely nothing in it to make me feel like I'm in the actual Battletech Universe...something it desperately needs.

[TheArisen]

In light of the current trend towards a decent tutorial, here's a poll.
http://mwomercs.com/...nd-new-players/

I don't mean to hijack the the thread, I think this is part of the discussion.

[MauttyKoray]

I would suggest a slow light chassis being used. As lights are the true starting point for any Mechwarrior, and a slower light chassis would help while not being as restrictive as a hunchie. They're great mediums, but they're a niche chassis.

[CptGier]

Kristov Kerensky, on 27 May 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

Joe, while I personally agree with you that some people just ain't meant to be MechWarriors, that's not a good attitude to take for the life of the game, so I have to ditch it and look at the commercial side. I HATE doing that, as it means having to agree that some of PGI's decisions I consider total CharlieFranks are actually good calls, and that just..man...ugh. I'd rather face a SEAL with my hands tied behind my back after he's been told I called his mom something really nasty, I really would, but reality is, PGI has made some good commercially viable calls.

A tutorial, despite the fact that it won't make people GOOD at this game, will allow them to learn the basics, and that's all it needs to do, teach the basics. Facing vs direction of travel, weapons grouping, arm vs torso target reticules, weapon ranges and what they mean, heat, ghost heat(a MUST since it's NOT part of anything anywhere outside of MWO!), LRMs and locks, Streaks and locks, SRMs and no locks. Basics, things you and I Joe, we don't think about because we're BTech players first, and we've played the previous MW video games, they are just automatics for us. Were they automatic when we first played a MW video game however? I know the facing/direction of travel messed with me the first time I ever dealt with it, but that was in the 80s playing a particular arcade video game, so I was already familiar with the practice and NOT just the concept before I ever played a MW video game.

A tutorial won't teach the advanced stuff, it can't, there's just too much, this isn't CoD after all, it's got a lot more going on at all times than CoD ever gets close to. It can teach the basics however, and that's what stops a lot of new players from sticking around, the basics. They don't get why they can't hit someone with a medlas at 800m, they can SEE them, so why the hell can't they shoot them? Why don't these stupid LRMs work? And so on, little things, but those little things quickly add up to a negative experience.

And beyond that, the scale of the grind. If they ever do manage to maybe live a while, dish out some damage, win, live, get a kill or 2 and realize they made like 80K on a 13 million cbill grind.....then realize t hey need to do t hat 3 times, and even more to really get their mech tricked out. I can see why MWO has a player retention issue. Idont want 4.5 million for doing nothing, but just like now in my game i just got out of.

491 dmg, 4k, 7a, win, survive, 80 some score, 131K base, 175K cuz of R mech bonus. I did the basic math on my proposed changes. 20% more Dmg Cbills, woulda netted me 12K up from 10K 5000 per assist up from 4500, woulda put me at like 35K up from the like 26K I think I was at. THen a win, 50K up from 25K. In the end, the math added up to an extra 57k, which woulda put my base earnings at around 180K, then added in R bonus for an over 200K match. Perfect really.

That way, when a newer player gets in an does his first 200 dmg game, gets his first kills and maybe a few assists and a win and survives, he is earning some 120-150K. THen its only like 10 games to get his first million. TOss in Cadet bonuses and the grind seems less painful. DO well, get paid well.

[Sir Wulfrick]

Replace the trainer with a narrated drill instructor and this video is exactly the sort of thing that an MWO tutorial introduction video ought to be:

https://youtu.be/aZT878Rylhw

[masCh]

MauttyKoray, on 07 June 2015 - 12:50 PM, said:

I would suggest a slow light chassis being used. As lights are the true starting point for any Mechwarrior, and a slower light chassis would help while not being as restrictive as a hunchie. They're great mediums, but they're a niche chassis.

I had that thought initially, as I'm sure many more people have had that same thought because it's obvious.

The reason for opting for the Hunchback is primarily due to its weapons loadout as well as the fact that it is slow:
1) The slow mech helps newer player navigate through a simple maze without much frustration
2) Ability to carry two different weapon types (laser + LRM) to teach how to hit two different targets separated by min/max range.
3) Ability to destroy a target mech without taking too much time, but not too quickly either.

As the other comments about the grind - of course you'd find me in agreement with those ideas. However I presented a different approach, one that would "skip" the initial grind completely : have cadets queue in a cadet-only queue, or alternatively (after 10-20 initial matches), a trial mech-only queue. Therefore they will only play against other people of their own skill level and of their own technology level. The "grind" would not be seen, it would be hidden. They won't notice anything they are grinding for because all their opponents are at the same level. By the time they have reached the completion of their cadet days (+ a few more matches) they would have already qualified to purchase their first mech and unlock all the basic tier skills for that mech.

I hope this idea is reasonable to you veteran players.