231 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 28 May 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

Would you prefer untouched lasers and vanilla agility, or nerfed lasers and buffed agility?

What if our blanket nerfs are defective?

[Y E O N N E]

WM Quicksilver, on 28 May 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

I would be ok with this, though future tech is gonna throw some wrenches in balance, specifically Heavy Lasers since they are two IS standard lasers for the tonnage of one traditionally (meaning they will be heavily adjusted from their TT values if ever added).

Heavy lasers are a bit of a pickle. They really shouldn't have been added into the Table Top game at all because they are superfluous, and they certainly throw a wrench in the balancing act. Three of those C-HML gives you 30 damage for 24 heat? That's identical to six IS ML, but you can fit 6 of them? Ouch. Would need a 1.78 second burn-time under my current model to match burn parity with the other medium-class lasers, and I find that unacceptable. Instead, perhaps shorten the Heavy Laser range to the ballpark of standard IS pulse ranges and let duration sit between 1 and 1.5 seconds? Having them sit at standard normal laser ranges I think is too generous for that level of firepower. Maybe make them all Imperoved Heavy lasers and let them explode like Gauss Rifles?

I really don't know. I didn't even know about them until you brought them up. Blazer only sort of offsets the C-HLL, but not really and nothing for the rest.

[Khobai]

Quote

Three of those C-HML gives you 30 damage for 24 heat? That's identical to six IS ML, but you can fit 6 of them

I really dont see the big deal. x4 CERMLs do 28 damage for 24 heat. And have way better range.

And heavy lasers will probably be ghosted heated starting at 2-3 so you wont be able to fire 6 simultaneously anyway. But even if you could, why would you want to? 60 damage for 48 heat is pretty awful compared to what other loadouts are capable of (x2 gauss + x4 ERML does 58 damage for 26 heat with much better range)

Quote

Maybe make them all Imperoved Heavy lasers and let them explode like Gauss Rifles?

Then thered be even less reason to use them. The shorter range is already bad enough. If you make them explode theyd be totally useless.

The main advantage of heavy lasers would be the fact you basically get 2 lasers for 1 hardpoint. It helps out clan mechs that lack energy hardpoints. Like the shadowcat would benefit from heavy lasers since it only has 3E hardpoints. Theres basically no other legitimate reason to use them.

Edited by Khobai, 29 May 2015 - 12:10 AM.

[Nightshade24]

How to fix problem: Give Kitfox and Adder proper quirks. like T4-5 grade quirks instead of the watered down T2 quirks they got for being the worst mechs in game

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 28 May 2015 - 11:52 PM, said:

I really dont see the big deal. x4 CERMLs do 28 damage for 24 heat. And have way better range.

And heavy lasers will probably be ghosted heated starting at 2-3 so you wont be able to fire 6 simultaneously anyway.

Since you compare with x4 CERML, you may as well make the comparison with 4 HMLs.
4 CERML = 28 Damage for 24 Heat at 405m range
4 HML = 40 Damage for 28 Heat at 270m range

Something is wrong either way.

Khobai, on 28 May 2015 - 11:52 PM, said:

Then theres even less reason to use them. The shorter range is already bad enough. If you make them explode theyd be totally useless.

You mean IS laser range, while IS lasers aren't perfect, two for the price of one on giant engined Clan mechs would be absolutely scary if their duration was short enough. Exploding is kind of a half-assed attempt at balancing them like Gauss explosions and the charge mechanic were at balancing the best ballistic in the game (still).

Khobai, on 28 May 2015 - 11:52 PM, said:

The main advantage heavy lasers should be the fact you basically get 2 lasers for 1 hardpoint. It helps out clan mechs that lack energy hardpoints. Like the shadowcat would benefit from heavy lasers since it only has 3E hardpoints.

It would be great for mechs that are limited on hardpoints, but the problem is the IS tech parity which is already pretty bad outside of super quirked mechs.



Regardless, probably the best way to deal with Heavy Lasers, is to treat them as the Clan's non-ER lasers rather than some special heavy hitting lasers, even if mechs like the Ferret, Summoner, Gargoyle, etc could really use them.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 29 May 2015 - 12:32 AM.

[Gyrok]

WM Quicksilver, on 29 May 2015 - 12:12 AM, said:

Since you compare with x4 CERML, you may as well make the comparison with 4 HMLs.
4 CERML = 28 Damage for 24 Heat at 405m range
4 HML = 40 Damage for 28 Heat at 270m range

Something is wrong either way.


You mean IS laser range, while IS lasers aren't perfect, two for the price of one on giant engined Clan mechs would be absolutely scary if their duration was short enough. Exploding is kind of a half-assed attempt at balancing them like Gauss explosions and the charge mechanic were at balancing the best ballistic in the game (still).


It would be great for mechs that are limited on hardpoints, but the problem is the IS tech parity which is already pretty bad outside of super quirked mechs.



Regardless, probably the best way to deal with Heavy Lasers, is to treat them as the Clan's non-ER lasers rather than some special heavy hitting lasers, even if mechs like the Ferret, Summoner, Gargoyle, etc could really use them.

I would like to point out...the crit slots of the weapons are also substantially different as well, and you get significantly fewer heatsinks with the heavy varieities, and you will have less range as well.

[topgun505]

You shouldn't be looking at lights if you are looking for clan agility (for now).

It may not technically be a light but Ice Ferret laughs at the clan lights. I got 8 kills last night in HPG with one, and 7 kills in a match the night before, and it wasn't even fully elited.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 28 May 2015 - 11:52 PM, said:

~snip~

Everything WM Quicksilver said, plus the clarification that exploding Improved Heavy Lasers is part of the rules and not something I made up. Given how we're going past 3070 for some of the IS tech we need to balance the game, the IHL is the newest and shiniest Clan laser on the block.

Gyrok, on 29 May 2015 - 04:51 AM, said:

I would like to point out...the crit slots of the weapons are also substantially different as well, and you get significantly fewer heatsinks with the heavy varieities, and you will have less range as well.

Welcome to the Inner Sphe -- wait a minute...

[Mcgral18]

topgun505, on 29 May 2015 - 07:00 AM, said:

You shouldn't be looking at lights if you are looking for clan agility (for now).

It may not technically be a light but Ice Ferret laughs at the clan lights. I got 8 kills last night in HPG with one, and 7 kills in a match the night before, and it wasn't even fully elited.

Still doesn't explain why the Crow gets better agility than the Lights.


Hankyu will have unquirked Fridge agility due to the same speed. Smurfy has unquirked stats.

[VoodooLou Kerensky]

Gas Guzzler, on 26 May 2015 - 03:15 PM, said:

Probably stems from long standing complaints of how Mediums have no role as they are slower and less agile than lights don't hit as hard as their heavier brethren. In other words, all mediums in the past have been "useless". Most 55 ton mediums on both sides (Clan and IS) have some significant twist buffs don't they?

There is no real Role Warfare anyways, the maps are too small, you know where the drop locations are so that eliminates scouts to find the OpFor. The 30 minute timer eliminates the need for the defenders to go hunt the attackers, since they can sit back and wait out the clock. And no matter what planet your on, wether its a heavy gravity planet or a low gravity airless rock, you fight in a sulphurous area, or a lush mountainous area etc ad nauseum. And yes I realize it would be impossible for PGI to make individual maps to suit each planet, but does no one else find it strange that the Planetary Leagues, since Mech 2, were always able to assign every planet a set of maps to represent them (and yes not all of them made sense)? And yes there were alot of Player made maps that got adopted, but that was all to the good since that helped spread the maps over all the planets so that no 2 were the same. What CW is now is just base rushing.

Ive been a part of the BTech fandom since 1985 and Ive played all the Computer (I played the Amiga version of Crescent Hawks 1 on a Commodore 64 but the rest were on PC) games and have been in every Closed Beta Test since Mech 3, and 6 months after release the Planetary leagues had maps assigned etc etc that created the Community Warfare of the time. If amatuer Players can do it why cant Professional Developers?

But what do I know, Im just some uneducated clown whose been playing the games in one form or another for 30 years.

[Mcgral18]

I've just noticed, the B-RT also gives +5 torso twist degrees....but actually gives 6 (156+5 apparently equals 162)

So, the Crow can now cap at a 25% twist speed bonus, or 198 Deg/s with a 162 twist arc.


So, the Crow twists even further, still as fast. Makes you wonder about the ShadowCat. Most mediums tend to get a torso twist buff, some better than others. Crow gets 15 CT, Nova gets 10 on the Prime. Nova Prime has a max at 15, Crow at 25.
Fridge Prime gets (wow) 5%, but has the insane engine.

Shadowcat, as a 45 tonner, might get the Crow's level, or might not get anything.
BJs get between 25 and 45, which I don't expect the Shadowcat to get at launch because MASC.
I'm wondering if it's going to become a SadCat...twisting slower than the Crow without MASC, or equal to it with MASC equipped, in a smaller arc.

[Mcgral18]

Although I think I've figured out the 5+6=12 part...5*1.2=6


So, quirks are added together, then efficiencies added.

130+5
*1.2
=162

As opposed to 156+5=162

Makes a lot more sense.

Edited by Mcgral18, 17 June 2015 - 12:41 PM.