7 replies to this topic

[Night Thastus]

I believe someone posted a similar titled post, but I've long since lost it, and I'm not sure if my post covers similar content or not, however, I feel this should be brought up.

This is the a series of workarounds/issues PGI has dealt with in this game:

1: Mechs have too little health (in lore) to get long enough matches in PGI's opinion so they doubled the Armor and Structure values of 'Mechs.

1.5: The engine PGI chose (Cryengine) cant handle really fast mechs, so Light mechs had to be slowed down. To keep other classes from having an advantage over lights, all mechs were nerfed speed-wise in a similar fashion. (IE: the Direwolf goes 54 in lore, 48.6 in MWO)

2: To counter the higher armor and make energy weapons not useless, they doubled the heat cap, therefore allowing weapons to fire more often without Mechs overheating. To counter this, they make it so double heat sinks only cool by 1.4x instead of 2.0x.

3: For whatever reason, weapons converge automatically, which isn't like it is in the lore. This is either due to complaining or just general belief in what would make a better shooter.

4: in the last jump jets had lore power, more or less, leading to "poptarting". This is because jump jets are strong, the heat cap is high, and that weapons converge instantly. Instead of nerfing jump-jets so harshly, they could have simply made it so the reticule continued to shake after hitting the apex of the jump, but instead PGI nerfs jump-jets to hover-jets at this point. Or, they could have removed convergance (a better fix).

5: An LRM-20 in the lore was enough to outright kill or slaughter some mechs, but since armor values are doubled, and missles don't hit well in MWO, missles are inferior.

6: Because ballistics need to be led and have travel-time, they are generally inferior. In the lore, IS ballistics should also fire multiple rounds from a "canister" of 4-100 shells, each canister being defined as one "round". If this was the case, IS ballistics would be roughly as good/bad as Clan Ballistics.

7: By all these parts, we have the result: Lasers become the Meta. Other metas have ruled in the past, like when LRMageddon happened, etc, but currently lasers are the best.

So, in essence, if weapons needed time to converge, reticules kept shaking while mid-air, jump jets were buffed to lore values, the heat cap was dropped to lore values, double heat sinks had 2.0x dissipation (truedubs), and armor/structure values went back to the lore, we'd have a working system in which all weapons would be more or less equal in power, and the laservomit "meta" wouldn't exist. This would mean that the nerfs to Clan mechs like the Timberwolf and Stormcrow would be unnecessary, as laservomit builds would not be advantageous over other builds.

Just my 2 cents.

Edited by Night Thastus, 26 May 2015 - 08:04 PM.

[MechWarrior849305]

So... All of these ... khm...features... were added in a Closed Beta, yet 'laser meta' became meta just recently. Coincidence? I don't think so.
Laser meta popped up just after unstoppable circling of nerfing everything, that was working.
PPCs? - got decrease in heat and increase in speed. Worked too good? - BAM!!! Nerfhammer. Use this sh!t now.
SRMs? - removed their splash dmg, improved hitreg. Worked too good? - BAM!!! Reduce in dmg by 20%.
Gauss rifles? - got their speed at 2kmps. Worked too well? - BAM!!! Use your charge mechanic. Also, can't really say, that they are going at 2kmps now, they are MUCH slower, yet PGI didn't even told this (Yet, it's the only weapon, that deals decent dmg even now).
Lasers? - got ghost heat. Got their long, longer, the longest beam duration. Oh, aren't them working too good even now? - We are working on it (C) PGI.

Sleep well, sweat prince, tomorrow you will see another "META"

Edited by DuoAngel, 27 May 2015 - 04:20 AM.

[Nightmare1]

Laser meta exists because all other metas have been nerfed so hard through the ground that they popped out in China, much to the bewilderment of the locals over there. Lasers are merely the latest iteration in a long series of nerf-spawned metas. Remember the days when it was PPCs? Gauss? PPCs + ACs? PPCs + Gauss? LRMs? Metas evolve overtime as they are nerfed. The things you highlighted, generally speaking, are not problems and are not what causes the laser meta. It's the never ending cycle of nerfs that cause these "Flavor of the Month" metas. Just wait until PGI nerfs lasers hard and we're all upset over that. Some beancounter of a gamer will put together a new meta, and viola! More griefing on the forums for the new meta to be nerfed.

Laser meta is better than some other metas. I'd say, leave it as is. In a game like MWO, you will never be able to fully balance all weapon systems, so trying is a waste of time, energy, and resources (especially if PGI decides to timeskip and introduce new weapons - that will undo all their balancing efforts to date!).

[Midax]

I agree with all your points. I think that instant convergence is the biggest problem. The fact that there is a skill that increases convergence shows that at one point they were planning on a system that did not instantly converge. I think that there is either a problem with the engine that prevents them from changing convergence or they are lacking in programmers that can make it happen.

It's a shame that the do not have the money to build their own engine for this game. I think this game would benefit from maps on the scale of Arma's maps.

[Nightmare1]

Midax, on 27 May 2015 - 05:18 AM, said:

I agree with all your points. I think that instant convergence is the biggest problem. The fact that there is a skill that increases convergence shows that at one point they were planning on a system that did not instantly converge. I think that there is either a problem with the engine that prevents them from changing convergence or they are lacking in programmers that can make it happen.

It's a shame that the do not have the money to build their own engine for this game. I think this game would benefit from maps on the scale of Arma's maps.

Convergence used to be in this game, but PGI couldn't make it work, so it was removed. The Pinpoint skill to which you refer is now useless and should be replaced with something else.

Convergence, though flashy, is not a viable solution. It's been tried and it failed. Time to move along.

[Wildstreak]

1 - Modding health has always been one way of various MW titles trying to make the game fun.

1.5 - I don't see how Lights have been slowed down. When I measured, all Mechs have their stock speeds, none were changed. Unless you refer to the engine cap. I am actually surprised we were allowed certain engine modifications.

2 - If DHS were reduced from 2 to 1.4 due to heat cap doubling, then lower the cap and give back 2.0 DHS. Should have a similar effect.

3 - Convergence may be a feature of the game engine.

4 - I would like actual JJs but don't see it happening due to poptarters/bunnyhoppers.

5 - Missiles hit fine. Coring got way reduced. The problems with LRMs are the boaters who ran LRM80-100 Mechs. We still have LRMers, usually now running multi-LRM5 for screen shake or LRM30+ the second being more accurate.

6 - Leading does not make Ballistics inferior. Multi-shot IS Ballistics were discussed but there is a group of hold outs that refuse to give up their pinpoint single shot. We even agreed both should be available but there seems no desire to do that by PGI if they even saw the agreement. You ignore the effect of no logistics in CW, not having reload stations helps make Ballistics less desirable.

7 - Unfortunately to fix things right, PGI would have to stop focusing on CW and possibly other development. They would have to open the TS with all changes and let people try them out. Can anyone get them to attempt this?

[WonderSparks]

Night Thastus, on 26 May 2015 - 08:02 PM, said:

...the Direwolf goes 54 in lore...

Actually, that number comes from a weird formula that is not quite the same as the one used to determine speed from an engine rating (I have a lot of spare time to figure these things out). The Dire Wolf has always gone up to 48.6 (without MASC); 54 is just a lie.


Regarding everything else, though, it looks to me like you have some solid points laid out. (I did not actually take the time to read it all just yet, I only skimmed it; just woke up and am not really up to reading a novel just yet )

[Tarl Cabot]

And it took the CW to bring out the heavy laser meta to the general public, and that is due to range, lack of cover over great distances on a number of maps and length of combat. May have seen it in the group queue but the greatest exposure has been CW, with the CW events. Of anything done to the game and other weapons, even the Clan weapons is partially due to the lack of a viable heat scale. There is no negative effects going from alpha to omega.

A light moving at 129kph at low heat is still moving at 129kph when its heatscale is riding at the max threshold of shutdown/override. That light or any other mech is still able to twist/turn at the same speeds, mech skills are unaffected, modules are unaffected, engine speeds are unaffected. Yes, there are consequences on passing that threshold, shutdown-some ct dmg/override-move at same speed-damage to any section, but nothing before it, whether ya firing lots of AC2/flamers/lasers/PPC/etc.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 27 May 2015 - 08:27 AM.