41 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Reference:
http://mwomercs.com/...oner-leg-armor/

If you have a Summoner and have a wish to test things "for science", here's your chance!

The amount of "internal structure" a leg has determines the damage dealt from falling. This is documented...

http://mwomercs.com/...02-02-jul-2014/

Quote

How Fall Damage Triggers:

In order for fall damage to trigger, the following conditions must be true:
The 'Mech has been airborne for 1 second minimum.
The 'Mech has a vertical fall rate of at least 30 ft/s. (9.144 m/s)

How much damage is determined by it's fall velocity and the weight class of the falling 'Mech.
Light 'Mechs = (Internal Structure Health * 1.9) * 0.04
Medium 'Mechs = (Internal Structure Health * 1.9) * 0.03
Heavy 'Mechs = (Internal Structure Health * 1.9) * 0.035
Assault 'Mechs = (Internal Structure Health * 1.9) * 0.04

The actual fall damage "trigger" and the multiplier for the different weight classes has changed over some time (I don't know the exact values, unless I want to dig, but I don't), but the overall basic formula and premise is the same.... "internal structure" based on the weight class dictates how much damage you take in the legs.


My hypothesis/theory is that mechs with quirked internal structure in the legs take MORE damage than quirked armor bonus in the legs.

The Summoner-D's legs have afforded us this opportunity...

Smurfy's mechlab said:

SMN-D LEFT LEG
ADDITIONAL ARMOR (LL): 22.00

SMN-D RIGHT LEG
ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (RL): 22.00

So..... how about that? For science!

Please report back your findings...

[Wintersdark]

Can't help, but very interested!

[Mcgral18]

So, since the D right leg gives additional armour, I put that on the +15 structure side, and just put 10 armour on the +15HP leg.

The other mech has the D left for 22+structure and the C right for +15 structure, with one having 10 armour.

Difference of 22 structure between the two.


5 jumps remove armour from the lesser structure (and makes it yellow).

It only took 4 jumps to remove the 22 structure one of 10 armour.



Theory seems correct.

[Mcgral18]

New fall damage values :
http://mwomercs.com/...45-21-oct-2014/

Quote

The fall speed limits over which a Mech takes damage have been updated to:

• Light Mechs: 46 m/s.
  
• Medium Mechs: 39 m/s.
  
• Heavy Mechs: 35 m/s.
  
• Assault Mechs: 33 m/s.

Now testing either structure leg with 30 armour. Both break at 10 jumps. Not sure if legs are calculated individually or as a sum of IS?

Edited by Mcgral18, 25 May 2015 - 12:48 PM.

[Mcgral18]

A new method of testing, go into the forest colony river. Flat, even ground, with no obstacles. Jump up for all of your JJ fuel, and just repeat in a straight line.

It took 19 jumps for both fully armoured (60) legs to break, simultaneously, for the +22 and +15 legs together.

For the +15IS and +22armour legs, it took an entire 25 jumps to remove the 60 armour (with the +22 armour still intact)



So, it seems it's very obvious structure affects fall damage, and that it's also a sum of both legs.

I'll try testing with a Phract 3D, but it might not jump as high (which means less damage if it doesn't reach 44 M/s)

[stjobe]

Mcgral18, on 25 May 2015 - 12:46 PM, said:

New fall damage values :
http://mwomercs.com/...45-21-oct-2014/

Quote

The fall speed limits over which a Mech takes damage have been updated to:

• Light Mechs: 46 m/s.
  
• Medium Mechs: 39 m/s.
  
• Heavy Mechs: 35 m/s.
  
• Assault Mechs: 33 m/s.

Interestingly enough, these numbers show us how way out of whack the MWO physics is; for something to reach 33 m/s (119 kph) in free fall, it needs to fall from 56 meters up. To reach 46 m/s (165 kph) it needs to fall from 108 meters.

Falling from 108 meters takes 4.7 seconds in 1 gravity.

In 3 gravities, however, a fall from just 16.5 meters (which takes 1 second) ends up with a falling speed at impact of... drumroll please... 33 m/s.

A fall from 28 meters in a 3 g environment makes for an impact speed of 46 m/s, and takes 1.4 seconds.

So it would seem MWO gravity is roughly 33 m/s² (or about 3g) and the fall speed limits are simply
* A fall of 1.4 seconds for lights (46 m/s)
* 1.2 seconds for mediums (39 m/s)
* 1.1 seconds for heavies (35 m/s)
* 1 second for assaults (33 m/s)

Try it out for yourself with this free fall calculator.

TL;DR: MWO gravity is three times Earth gravity.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 25 May 2015 - 12:46 PM, said:

New fall damage values :
http://mwomercs.com/...45-21-oct-2014/

The multipliers have changed AFAIK, in favor of Mediums and Lights (not the trigger, but the damage multiplier per class).

Quote

Now testing either structure leg with 30 armour. Both break at 10 jumps. Not sure if legs are calculated individually or as a sum of IS?

I think the legs are calculated individually assuming the right leg gets removed before the left due to the testing.

The internal structure in the damage math referenced is probably the initial/starting value (factoring in the quirks), and not the current value of the internal structure of the leg. If it were the current value of the leg, you'd do less damage on subsequent falls when the leg has its external armor removed (which would make no sense, but let's not leave that to PGI's machinations ).

Remember that the color-scale for damage is altered because of the new armor+structure values, so you gotta be careful in testing that.

Edited by Deathlike, 25 May 2015 - 01:15 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

stjobe, on 25 May 2015 - 01:11 PM, said:

TL;DR: MWO gravity is three times Earth gravity.

One of my biggest grievances with the physics engine in this game.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 25 May 2015 - 01:06 PM, said:

A new method of testing, go into the forest colony river. Flat, even ground, with no obstacles. Jump up for all of your JJ fuel, and just repeat in a straight line.

It took 19 jumps for both fully armoured (60) legs to break, simultaneously, for the +22 and +15 legs together.

For the +15IS and +22armour legs, it took an entire 25 jumps to remove the 60 armour (with the +22 armour still intact)



So, it seems it's very obvious structure affects fall damage, and that it's also a sum of both legs.

I'll try testing with a Phract 3D, but it might not jump as high (which means less damage if it doesn't reach 44 M/s)

Hm, that makes the breakdown interesting... so if it factors in both legs internal structure and damage them equally...

That would make the Mist Lynx legs an interesting further test...

MLX-C legs have +15 to IS

MLX-D legs have +12 to IS, +6 External Armor

MLX-Prime/A/B legs +12 to IS

It's worth a look into.

Edited by Deathlike, 25 May 2015 - 01:22 PM.

[Mcgral18]

The 3D only reaches -40 M/s, but I'll test anyways.
31

It took 31 jumps to remove the 60 armour, although did travel 5 M/s slower than the Summoner. Not sure how significant that is.
It gets no structure buffs.


Someone with a Grasshopper should do this test; put 49 armour (since it gets 11 armour per leg, but no structure, although that's only one variant) to match the Summoner, then put 5 JJs. That should get nearly identical distance, and much better testing material.

Edited by Mcgral18, 25 May 2015 - 01:32 PM.

[MauttyKoray]

stjobe, on 25 May 2015 - 01:11 PM, said:

Interestingly enough, these numbers show us how way out of whack the MWO physics is; for something to reach 33 m/s (119 kph) in free fall, it needs to fall from 56 meters up. To reach 46 m/s (165 kph) it needs to fall from 108 meters.

Falling from 108 meters takes 4.7 seconds in 1 gravity.

In 3 gravities, however, a fall from just 16.5 meters (which takes 1 second) ends up with a falling speed at impact of... drumroll please... 33 m/s.

A fall from 28 meters in a 3 g environment makes for an impact speed of 46 m/s, and takes 1.4 seconds.

So it would seem MWO gravity is roughly 33 m/s² (or about 3g) and the fall speed limits are simply
* A fall of 1.4 seconds for lights (46 m/s)
* 1.2 seconds for mediums (39 m/s)
* 1.1 seconds for heavies (35 m/s)
* 1 second for assaults (33 m/s)

Try it out for yourself with this free fall calculator.

TL;DR: MWO gravity is three times Earth gravity.

I remember having multiple gravity variations in MW4...

MWO doesn't have this does it... sigh

[Alistair Winter]

MauttyKoray, on 25 May 2015 - 01:41 PM, said:

I remember having multiple gravity variations in MW4...

MWO doesn't have this does it... sigh

Didn't even MW2 have this? Or MW2:Mercs? I seem to remember it predated MW4.

[CocoaJin]

stjobe, on 25 May 2015 - 01:11 PM, said:

Interestingly enough, these numbers show us how way out of whack the MWO physics is; for something to reach 33 m/s (119 kph) in free fall, it needs to fall from 56 meters up. To reach 46 m/s (165 kph) it needs to fall from 108 meters.

Falling from 108 meters takes 4.7 seconds in 1 gravity.

In 3 gravities, however, a fall from just 16.5 meters (which takes 1 second) ends up with a falling speed at impact of... drumroll please... 33 m/s.

A fall from 28 meters in a 3 g environment makes for an impact speed of 46 m/s, and takes 1.4 seconds.

So it would seem MWO gravity is roughly 33 m/s² (or about 3g) and the fall speed limits are simply
* A fall of 1.4 seconds for lights (46 m/s)
* 1.2 seconds for mediums (39 m/s)
* 1.1 seconds for heavies (35 m/s)
* 1 second for assaults (33 m/s)

Try it out for yourself with this free fall calculator.

TL;DR: MWO gravity is three times Earth gravity.

It's not so much out of whack, but a choice to help keep JJs in check and to give the impression that mechs were heavy. Using 1g made mechs seem to float/linger too long after exhausting their JJs during pop-tarting. With 3gs That's why it's best impossible to reverse sinkage after coming off your JJs briefly, or if are falling prior to firing your JJs.

So the velocity to cause damage us irrelevant since ultimately they are suggesting a free fall of 1.4 secs equates to too much of a fall without stressing the structure....which makes sense in a 1G would also. I shutter to think what much more than 1.4 sec of free fall would do to our airplanes.

Edited by CocoaJin, 25 May 2015 - 03:42 PM.

[El Bandito]

Alistair Winter, on 25 May 2015 - 03:09 PM, said:

Didn't even MW2 have this? Or MW2:Mercs? I seem to remember it predated MW4.

MW2 did have multiple gravity. Playing the space mission in GBL was a cool experience.

Edited by El Bandito, 25 May 2015 - 05:55 PM.

[Deathlike]

El Bandito, on 25 May 2015 - 04:42 PM, said:

MW2 did have multiple gravity. Playing the space mission in BGL was a cool experience.

Though MW2 Mercs underwater (with super hard gravity) was a complete PITA.

[Alek Ituin]

stjobe, on 25 May 2015 - 01:11 PM, said:

Interestingly enough, these numbers show us how way out of whack the MWO physics is; for something to reach 33 m/s (119 kph) in free fall, it needs to fall from 56 meters up. To reach 46 m/s (165 kph) it needs to fall from 108 meters.

Falling from 108 meters takes 4.7 seconds in 1 gravity.

In 3 gravities, however, a fall from just 16.5 meters (which takes 1 second) ends up with a falling speed at impact of... drumroll please... 33 m/s.

A fall from 28 meters in a 3 g environment makes for an impact speed of 46 m/s, and takes 1.4 seconds.

So it would seem MWO gravity is roughly 33 m/s² (or about 3g) and the fall speed limits are simply
* A fall of 1.4 seconds for lights (46 m/s)
* 1.2 seconds for mediums (39 m/s)
* 1.1 seconds for heavies (35 m/s)
* 1 second for assaults (33 m/s)

Try it out for yourself with this free fall calculator.

TL;DR: MWO gravity is three times Earth gravity.

It's my understanding that 3g of acceleration would be 29.4m/s, not 33m/s, due to 1g being 9.8m/s.

[CocoaJin]

MauttyKoray, on 25 May 2015 - 01:41 PM, said:

I remember having multiple gravity variations in MW4...

MWO doesn't have this does it... sigh

Supposedly it's a limitation of the engine. They can modify the level of gravity, but supposedly it's a universal value across all maps.

[aniviron]

CocoaJin, on 25 May 2015 - 06:08 PM, said:

Supposedly it's a limitation of the engine. They can modify the level of gravity, but supposedly it's a universal value across all maps.

I thought the issue was HSR-related? I feel like we heard something about that in one of the town halls.

[YueFei]

CocoaJin, on 25 May 2015 - 03:36 PM, said:

It's not so much out of whack, but a choice to help keep JJs in check and to give the impression that mechs were heavy. Using 1g made mechs seem to float/linger too long after exhausting their JJs during pop-tarting. With 3gs That's why it's best impossible to reverse sinkage after coming off your JJs briefly, or if are falling prior to firing your JJs.

So the velocity to cause damage us irrelevant since ultimately they are suggesting a free fall of 1.4 secs equates to too much of a fall without stressing the structure....which makes sense in a 1G would also. I shutter to think what much more than 1.4 sec of free fall would do to our airplanes.

You might like this. F-18 drop test:


Dropped from a height of 6 meters. It'd be a free fall of 1.1 seconds, and reach a speed of 10.8 meters/sec.

[CocoaJin]

YueFei, on 25 May 2015 - 10:05 PM, said:

You might like this. F-18 drop test:


Dropped from a height of 6 meters. It'd be a free fall of 1.1 seconds, and reach a speed of 10.8 meters/sec.

Oh **** that made me cringe. Considering Naval aircraft have special design requirements to handle such landings, our standard/terrestrial birds would likely leave skid marks from the tires on the underside of the wing, blow what's left of the tires and snap our wing spar.

Consider our mechs lucky we aren't getting total structural failure of legs and CT damage at 1.4 secs of free fall...especially our straight legged chassises.

Edited by CocoaJin, 25 May 2015 - 10:59 PM.