96 replies to this topic

[Tywren]

Chimperator, on 28 May 2015 - 10:41 AM, said:

Guys the one and only Problem is PGI`s 12men Groups against solo or small random group philosophy.
More then 4 poeple against random or solo players is just a community killer, MWO is the only f2p game I know where its possible.

Correct, and this is why people have been asking for a split que. The thing is, acording to PGI is that there aren't enough players in CW to do that. And therein lies the catch 22; people don't play CW because there is no spliting the groups from the regular players, and that spit won't happen until there are enough people who play CW.

If PGI ever wants to see CW at more than 13.5% population usage, they're going to have to give those people what they want, which means split que.

Quote

btw: CW should be the end game content, right?
Why the f..k people can play it when they are in there first 20 matches? Without a unit, with trial mechs... as a solo player against a organized 12 men drop ? PGI wants to kill them self...

No, it should not be "end game" content, nor "hard mode", it should be COMMUNITY WARFARE, as in FOR THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY, and that includes the new player making their first drop. Honestly i'm to the point that i wish PGI would just fulling intigrate the public que into CW so that people would get this through their heads.

sycocys, on 28 May 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

People SHOULDN'T be able to play CW without a gate to cross, and that will likely be added down the road - (un)fortunately for everyone this is their idea to beta it out so everyone gets a chance to try it out.

Bull

*******

****!

Like i said, this is for the entire community, it's not some clubhouse for a bunch of elitest douchbags!

[Koshirou]

Whatever became of the 4 vs 4 CW mode, btw?

[Moldur]

Tell all the pugs to join units.

[Tywren]

Moldur, on 28 May 2015 - 01:49 PM, said:

Tell all the pugs to join units.

No, they shouldn't have to join a unit to enjoy the ******* game!

[Monkey Lover]

Koshirou, on 28 May 2015 - 01:47 PM, said:

Whatever became of the 4 vs 4 CW mode, btw?

They're working on it Russ said on the last town hall.

[BearFlag]

Well, Romeo was right about not jumping to conclusions. I'm not going to tattle on people for one instance. It's a ~possible~ trend, not a certain one.

I think this was on Vulcan where we were losing over and over again. Frustration levels were high - higher even than 'normal' CW evokes.

I know CW has its defenders, but I suspect the majority think of it like I do - it's just not FUN. There are also some bad open matches 12-0, 0-12 but the good ones - battling down to the wire - are what make this game. CW needs that fun too.

But it lacks it for all reasons cited earlier. I would add the 2x death rate ramps up the tempo too much. 48 mechs dead in 30 minutes vs. 12 in 15 minutes. Combine this density with choke points and there's not room for maneuver and tactics. Which ever side has the discipline to mass their lasers carries the carnage. If both sides have or lack that discipline you may get a decent match, but all the other problems remain.

Edited by BearFlag, 28 May 2015 - 08:27 PM.

[Gerwig]

You know I have been on the side of the stick being farmed at spawn many times and I really have no sympathy. 12 Mechs walk up to a gate and start to push, 3 commit and the rest back up and watch as the few get mauled. If I was on the other team I would not want to wait half an hour for a push that never comes either.

[bad arcade kitty]

yeah, i would dc (or rather eject to deny them c-bills/exp) too

pgi shouldn't match pugs vs 'one of the best units in the game' and think pugs would actually play that
consider it surrender

[Romeo Deluxe]

oldradagast, on 28 May 2015 - 03:16 AM, said:

Why?

The match was already lost. No point in feeding ego and "ggclose" by continuing the meaningless charade.

Maybe if more people disconnected and otherwise walked out, PGI would wake up and realize what a pointless farce CW is:

1) The repetitive, single objective
2) The idiotic maps, full of spawn camping and obvious lanes
3) The total lack of role warefare
4) Punishment for fulfilling objectives - you get few, if any cbills or XP for killing objectives
5) Total lack of team balance and match-making, resulting in games decided at pairings.

Keep walking - that's the only way they'll learn.

I'm not the kind of person that loses the match in my mind before it even begins. I also look to improve myself even in apparently insurmountable odds. Losers on the other hand never look to improve themselves.

Edited by Romeo Deluxe, 28 May 2015 - 11:34 PM.

[Gagis]

bad arcade kitty, on 28 May 2015 - 08:39 PM, said:

yeah, i would dc (or rather eject to deny them c-bills/exp) too

pgi shouldn't match pugs vs 'one of the best units in the game' and think pugs would actually play that
consider it surrender

So the guy who gets mad about rule breaking when people reveal the location of non-contributing players thinks breaking the rules is ok when it comes to betraying your teammates in CW...

k.

[Koshirou]

I can sympathize with people who consider their time too valuable to be cannon fodder. At this time, my advice for casual and solo players would be not to bother with CW at all. Save yourself the frustration.

[bad arcade kitty]

Gagis, on 28 May 2015 - 11:45 PM, said:

So the guy who gets mad about rule breaking when people reveal the location of non-contributing players thinks breaking the rules is ok when it comes to betraying your teammates in CW...

k.

it's not really betrayal when you would lose anyway

well, honestly, during the event i would try to persuade them and if i failed i wouldn't probably eject for a chance that some (for a hard stomp it's usually around 1/2-2/3) may get 80 score points
but when there is no 80 points rule...

or may be i would try anyway to make them follow my example

Edited by bad arcade kitty, 29 May 2015 - 12:12 AM.

[Hangfire]

Been seeing a lot more discos in CW recently, it's a bit of a buzzkill. I enjoy CW and have seen stomps overturned in the 3rd or 4th wave, so when someone dcs after losing their 1st mech it pisses me off to no end. You've got 4 of them folks the 1st ones in ALWAYS get trashed if your opponents are even half-assed organized.

[sycocys]

Tywren, on 28 May 2015 - 01:00 PM, said:

Like i said, this is for the entire community, it's not some clubhouse for a bunch of elitest douchbags!

Having a gate that prevents new and inexperienced players from engaging in a part of the game that is too hard for them is not a bad thing.

A gate that prevents the low elo casual players from participating, while frustrating for those particular players, is also good for the life of CW - because these are the players most likely to leave a match that they are obviously not prepared for and ruin it for the other 23 players.

Its not only good to keep those players out of that queue until they gain some much needed experience with the game, but it is also good for all the players that have crossed that gate to not have the people dropping that instantly think the match is too hard because they simply haven't made themselves ready for more of a challenge yet.

[StraferX]

228 or any other organized 12 man is not the problem. A drop ship pilot that is so stupid he drops you on the enemy is a big part of the problem unless he can drop massive napalm on them and kill them off. A smart drop ship pilot would be scanning and if 75% of the mechs are out of base he would drop you behind the gate, or at least just behind your fighting line so back up needs not travel 9000m to get to the front.

Also make the generator in the base require that A certain% of living mechs remain in the proximity or the unguarded base starts turning over allowing a light to sweep in and steal. Some sort of objective but right now its not even fun.

I want to pilot the drop ship.

[Triordinant]

Koshirou, on 29 May 2015 - 12:00 AM, said:

I can sympathize with people who consider their time too valuable to be cannon fodder. At this time, my advice for casual and solo players would be not to bother with CW at all. Save yourself the frustration.

The way CW is now, this is very good advice. Facts.

StraferX, on 29 May 2015 - 03:33 AM, said:

I want to pilot the drop ship.

They should give us the option to be the pilots and gunners on the drop ships.

[ElDuckerino]

I remember that specific drop.
As soon as we saw what we assumed to be a disorganized group of 12 individuals, we had a brief discussion how we could make this match less aggrevating for the opposition.
We tried to hold back at both gates and maybe get some fast movers to create a poking flank by moving out an unopposed gate. But since people tend to position themselves in the most advantagous fashion as soon as they have enemy contact, we soon had 12 people out of the gates.
When you reach that point of a cw battle (with the score being anything from 12-0 to 12-4), you are stuck with roughly two options: either retreat back behind the gate and wait for the next wave, or commit to a "suicide rush" near the enemy drop zone.
Both of these options have to be disheartening for the enemy team. Either you send another wave at the fortress, or you get overrun at your own spawn.

So where does this leave you as the 12-man?
You either apply a lot of discipline and keep defensive (which most of the time involves a lot of boring waiting) or you just go out there and finish the job.


Let's have a look at the game mode this match was played on. We had the objective "hold territory". On boreal, sulfurous and hellebore, rushing out the (already opened) gates puts you in disadvantages positions until you established complete control of the drop zones. Therefore, "rushing out" is actually a gift towards the enemy.
On portico, taiga and vitric, there is no downside to being outside the gates. The terrain gives you equal or better positioning possibilities than staying behind the gate. Since the Omega objective has little to no meaning for counter-attacks, you can't even be punished by cheese tactics. As long as you can get out of your gates savely, this is very compelling.

In my opinion, this is the real problem. For units with a strife towards playing to the best of its abilities, not going out the gates just feels wrong on these maps. Hell, I usually have a really hard time convincing people not to do it.


So, do i feel like I'm roughing pugs in these situations? Yes. Do I have ways to "ease the pain"? None that aren't insulting.



TL:DR

- Big groups have little ways to improve the gaming experience of their pug opposition in cw
- Grim Portico, Emerald Taiga and Vitric Fortress on "Hold Territory" offer little alternative for the defenders to moving out

[masCh]

Quote

Guys the one and only Problem is PGI`s 12men Groups against solo or small random group philosophy.
More then 4 poeple against random or solo players is just a community killer, MWO is the only f2p game I know where its possible.

How about no split queues (population is already bad).. however do something like this:

There can be no 12-mans. Maximum 8-man premade and you only drop with 8-man against 12 pugs.
But then what if you have a 6-man premade, then you should have a 10-man team or something against 12 pugs.
Ah well I hope PGI has better ideas.

[Saint Atlas and the Commando Elf]

I am one of the guys, who dc'd in OP's game.

I did it on purpose.

I've stated my reasoning throughout several other (older) threads. Right now, I'm too tired to repeat them.

[White Bear 84]

BearFlag, on 27 May 2015 - 06:10 PM, said:

Three of the four disco'd fairly early in the game. It was supposed to be a "counter-attack" (which of course is meaningless). But the Clan attacked us. The number of undropped and disco'd mechs was actually larger earlier in the game. Once it became obvious they were going to camp our landing areas, some people simply disconnected.

I imagine this is a violation of the rules. On the other hand, it's hard to blame the disco's. Who wants to play a game when you know your next 2 or 3 mechs are going be shredded? You know there's zero chance of reorganizing a mutually supporting line.

Possibly the "228" unit has an internal rule against camping because they didn't directly camp. But they stayed close enough for the effect to be the same.

This was on Vitric Maze. With the drop points scattered and guarded, we were picked apart. Indeed, before it was over, the 228 boys got bored and started having private jousts. Numerous

"RED has killed RED"

messages flashed by (i.e. we didn't really get 17 kills).

Vxheous Kerensky, on 27 May 2015 - 06:28 PM, said:

228 is one of the best units in the game, and wreck pretty much 95% of their opposition, whether they are pugs or dropped as 12 mans

I really cannot reiterate how many times I have told other groups or pugs to work together and not be overly timid against these guys.. ..you would think people learn.

Credit where credit is due for the team being skilled.. ..but you guys must get bored of continuous stomps like this? I mean im seeing Mag, Bulbasaur, Sherrod.. ..not to rub ego's or anything but these three alone are pretty damn skilled, let alone another 9

Edit: Read Mag's post above. Interesting idea.. ..be even better if PGI could ensure your 12 man groups match up against other 12 man groups rather than pugs. I mean to be fair, a pug group coming up against one of the best units in game is a pretty raw deal...

At the end of the day, it comes down to the discipline of the team too like Elduck said.. ..I have been on voip/chat telling people to stick together, then everyone runs of like headless goose and gets stomped & QQ's about it. EVERY game against the 228 where the teams have organised have been way way less painful..

Kay Wolf, on 27 May 2015 - 06:41 PM, said:

Regardless, this is not something that should be happening. This is ridiculous, and it needs to change, and soon. Objective-based combat, several different types of mission objectives introduced rapidly, to give us the real possibility of having games that fit more what they should be.

^^This.

Edited by White Bear 84, 29 May 2015 - 06:20 AM.