108 replies to this topic

[LordKnightFandragon]

Alistair Winter, on 28 May 2015 - 02:41 AM, said:

Yeah, it kind of blows. But that's pretty much an inevitable consequence of 12 v 12, no respawn and relatively high TTK compared to other games. If instant kills were a factor in this game, then there would be a lot more unpredictability. A gauss sniper or a fast heavy mech would be able to take out a whole team, given a high enough skill disparity.

12 v 12 on small maps and high TTK ensures that individual skill is less of a factor.

8 v 8 will still make each death more significant, but at least the matches will last longer and TTK will be increased. But the biggest issue is the fact that the maps and game modes are basically meat grinders designed to funnel 12-man teams against each other. If there was more lance vs lance engagements, matches would last longer and - in my opinion- be a lot more entertaining.


I imagine there's strong correlation, but of course that doesn't say anything about causality. The team with the highest number of 0 kill players also tends to lose (though not always).

OMG this game needs no instant kill factors of any kind...

ITs a mech game, were supposed to be tanky.....

Dont even say Instant kill on these forums, that is where changes like that start...someone says it and others support it and soon its a spam of threads asking for it...just no...

[Mystere]

mogs01gt, on 28 May 2015 - 06:43 AM, said:

Which is why promoting randomize spawns and lance combat will create a different play style than what we have now with the "lets all funnel into one area and play peak-a-boo" style.

Then again, I want more maps Alpine but I doubt players will ever use different strategies in this game.

I want the players to figure things out, and not PGI imposing the play style.

And so I say let the idiots be idiots. If they're on the enemy team, I'll exploit that situation. And if they're on my team, I'll exploit them too.

[Alistair Winter]

LordKnightFandragon, on 28 May 2015 - 09:18 AM, said:

OMG this game needs no instant kill factors of any kind...

ITs a mech game, were supposed to be tanky.....

Dont even say Instant kill on these forums, that is where changes like that start...someone says it and others support it and soon its a spam of threads asking for it...just no...

I'm not saying it needs instant kills. I want TTK to be higher, not lower. But high TTK is obviously a relevant factor when explaining predictable matches. This isn't like a twitch shooter where a joker with an AK-47 can take out a whole squad of opponents single-handedly, just by having superior aim, a good position and the element of surprise.

In the pug queue, you will regularly see some of the very best players, guys who rank #1-5 in tournaments, find themselves on the losing side of a roflstomp. They'll die with 0 kills, having done less than 300 damage. It happens quite often. Because if their teammates die early and they are outnumbered, their superior skills simply won't be enough to take out the army of bads fast enough.

Like I said above, the solution is to have more lance vs lance engagement. In a 4 v 4 engagement, the highly skilled player will shine brighter despite high TTK. His or her superior skills will have a bigger impact, and being isolated from the other 8 enemy mechs means that he or she will have a bigger impact on the match as a whole.

[DaZur]

I cannot understand how anyone cannot understand combat loss attrition and compounding force strength is beyond me...

[C E Dwyer]

Its not all ways the case, i've been in plenty of matches where a teams been 3 down and gone on to win, both won and lost under those circumstances.

However when these matches happen, its usually caused by the 9 left, and not the three that died, to many pugs fall over themselves to be last (usually the one screaming you left me when a locust crits them through back armour), that hide when they take a couple of hits( these are also the ones that poke over a ridge get shot, wait 10 seconds poke over the same ridge at the same spot and then call cheater when they can no longer take part in the match).

Its not always the case as sometimes the first three dead are the 'champion' lights that charge off and get flattened before the group is formed, but usually the stomps are caused by people more concerned with avoiding damage than dishing it out to the other team

[mogs01gt]

Alistair Winter, on 28 May 2015 - 09:17 AM, said:

Nope, that's not the phrase I'm looking for. I said exactly what I meant.

High TTK means it takes longer to kill people. Which means that unlike CounterStrike and similar games, a good player cannot easily beat a large number of bad players by taking them out 1 by 1. In other words, teamwork becomes more important than individual skills. And losing 3 people early in the match is thus quite often a certain prelude to defeat.

I want the game to have even higher TTK, but it does come at a price.

This!! Increasing TTK would give the opposing team a bit of counter play.

Mystere, on 28 May 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

That is true only if you're a fundamentalist member of The Church of the Bigger is Better.
The 3/3/3/3 system is already bad enough. Now you want each lance to be composed of one of each class too? Hell no!

Bigger is better. This is a TDM game remember, more power=better.

I like the 3x4 system, I want them to improve it by implementing it into lance combat.

Edited by mogs01gt, 28 May 2015 - 10:29 AM.

[Pjwned]

There are multiple problems really.

1. People so often allow the enemy team to get a 2-3 kill lead by playing terribly, though I have seen plenty of games where the other team made a comeback and won.

2. The critical damage system in this game is absolutely terrible and most mechs walking around with components completely exposed still have just as much firepower or heatsinks or ammo or whatever else as they would otherwise have because it's pretty rare to have equipment destroyed before the component is destroyed. This is because ammo explosions are implemented terribly because you're either fine or you're extremely unlucky and die instantly, equipment health values are stupid & unbalanced, and the crit system favors 10+ damage pinpoint weapons to a ridiculous degree.

3. The game and its maps were not originally made for 12v12 matches.

[DaZur]

I'm noticing a lot of players playing with little fear of repercussion leading to what I affectionately call "Rambo Syndrome"...

In short, they become so focused on getting a kill, they take so much ablative damage in the process that they position themselves in such poor condition to live through to the end of the match that they actually become team liabilities.

Absolutely, players should be actively contributing but not necessarily sacrificing themselves in the process...

Again, combat force attrition + compounded force strength = stomp.

A little self-preservation goes a long way in team games...

[Deathlike]

Not all "first 3 kills" are the same.

Sometimes to get the 3 kills, 3 other mechs could be critical in the process.

The thing is, you have to honestly work through adversity.

Sometimes when you have the lead, you can still lose it with bad play (or terrible teammates)...

So, if you plan on giving up... don't expect to win. If you plan on making life miserable for the enemy before your own death... kudos to you.

[Raggedyman]

Hans Von Lohman, on 28 May 2015 - 01:57 AM, said:

Does it seem odd to anybody else that there are not a lot of closer run games? It seems to me that the first team to score 2 or 3 kill over the enemy is the team that will win.

That leads to the majority of the match essentially being cleanup, and the team with the fewer players can only hope to score a moral victory by at least taking down a few more enemies so it isn't as one-sided.

It seems weird to me as I have been playing World of Warships a lot lately, and there the matches nearly always seem to be a lot closer run things. Especially with the ability to capture the enemy flag and win that way. Since we got base turrets I think I've seen can count base capture wins on one hand in total.

If a game is truly balanced then it should be effectively decided on the first kill as that gives the 12 the only edge it has over the 11.

[Zolaz]

I have come back from being down 6 mechs in PUG queue. I have killed the last four mechs on the opposing side while I was the last pilot on my team, also in the PUG queue. Sorry original poster but your premise isnt always right.

Now, if you have a bunch of scrubs and you are suppose to carry ... and you arent carrying, then nothing can be done.

[Mystere]

mogs01gt, on 28 May 2015 - 10:27 AM, said:

Bigger is better. This is a TDM game remember, more power=better.

Were you not around the time when light wolf packs ate much heavier enemy teams? Those were the glory days before 3/3/3/3 killed them.

Edited by Mystere, 28 May 2015 - 12:37 PM.

[Goose]

bad arcade kitty, on 28 May 2015 - 09:12 AM, said:

play conquest

[FupDup]

Sometimes games are set before even the first kill...

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 28 May 2015 - 01:21 PM, said:

Sometimes games are set before even the first kill...

You mean TL;DR ggclose?

[DaZur]

FupDup, on 28 May 2015 - 01:21 PM, said:

Sometimes games are set before even the first kill...

You mean when you see "that guy" in your drop team and you know as soon as the match starts he's hanging a left and heading to the neighborhood of make believe?

[Mirkk Defwode]

DaZur, on 28 May 2015 - 01:27 PM, said:

You mean when you see "that guy" in your drop team and you know as soon as the match starts he's hanging a left and heading to the neighborhood of make believe?

Hey now! I resemble that remark.

[DaZur]

Mirkk Defwode, on 28 May 2015 - 01:30 PM, said:

Hey now! I resemble that remark.

I'm sure it's a case of mistaken identity...

[Revis Volek]

This is no different then other games its just we have 12 players with 12 spawns instead of 30 or 60 with 500.

BF4 is the same way...when you are down 1/3 of your tickets to the other side its a hard fight back more often then not.

[Kiiyor]

Hans Von Lohman, on 28 May 2015 - 01:57 AM, said:

Does it seem odd to anybody else that there are not a lot of closer run games? It seems to me that the first team to score 2 or 3 kill over the enemy is the team that will win.

That leads to the majority of the match essentially being cleanup, and the team with the fewer players can only hope to score a moral victory by at least taking down a few more enemies so it isn't as one-sided.

It seems weird to me as I have been playing World of Warships a lot lately, and there the matches nearly always seem to be a lot closer run things. Especially with the ability to capture the enemy flag and win that way. Since we got base turrets I think I've seen can count base capture wins on one hand in total.

IMHO, the game is won or lost after the first exchange of fire.

It's all about which team gets the better position first.

It almost always boils down to a peek fest after first contact. One team will almost always have a superior position to the other, and will have more guns pointed in the general direction of the enemy. More guns at fewer targets = win.

The team with the inferior position will be losing trades when they peek, yet the PUG mindset means that every player has to be always trying to shoot, so they will insist on continuing the doomed peek-fest. The team rarely relocates, because PUGS are an odd beast, and will stubbornly continue with losing tactics to the exclusion of all else, despite the odd handful of players losing their **** over voip or in chat. Eventually, frustration sets in, and the odd hero will try and force a push, only to wither and die in front of the fearful eyes of their allies.

Before you know it, you've lost two mechs - but worse than that, your team has taken huge amounts of damage. You'll have players with missing limbs, or worse, open torsos. They'll have pulled back because they aren't combat effective, and they're about as useful in an enemy push as an all-TAG PartyBack. It's all about weight of numbers after that, because the firepower available to a 12 man team as opposed to the old 8 man format is an order of magnitude more deadly than it was in days of yore. Mechs melt in record time, and lone mechs out of position or weakened mechs die far quicker to concentrated fire than they used to.

Sometimes, if you're lucky, and you spot a problem early enough, you can bully your team into a better position, so that the roles are reversed. Mordor is a good example of this. If you think the enemy has won the race to the center, you can sometimes get your team to pull back, even though "ZOMG WE MUST TAHKE TEH CENTER" is apparantly the only winning tactic ever. Once the dude saying that is dead, and you've moved, the enemy can't resist peeking and suddenly it's your team with more guns pointing at less enemies.