91 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

lordtzar, on 28 May 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

An ERLPL is nearly the equivalent of two ERML. If all you care about are energy hardpoints, Scat can do 3 and 2 missile with ecm. So, like 2x LPL, 1x ML and a couple of SRMs.

While the scat's stuck with 3 tons worth of jumpjets, it's engine is 10 tons lighter and doesn't have any fixed heat sinks(ferret has 2).

And because of that, it laservomits worse, nor can it bring SRMs if it brings LPLs (12 tons, that leaves 3 tons...unless you want to sacrifice the Jesus Box, or bring SRM2s)

I did the Math; it does less for more heat, and more range. Fridge will win brawls due to hardpoints. That 5th hardpoint makes a difference.

Eyepop, on 28 May 2015 - 10:39 AM, said:

But you can't fit two LPL on the Arrow with a STD, so we're talking different builds. 6MG, 2 LPL Arrow

2 ML, LPL, 3 tons ammo

21 damage, as opposed to 22 and 26.
15 heat VS 14 and 20

[Templar Dane]

As long as it's scaled well it'll be a good mech. If it's the size of a 60 tonner, it'll probably suck pretty hard. It should be shorter but wider than a ferret.

[Eyepop]

Mcgral18, on 28 May 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

2 ML, LPL, 3 tons ammo

21 damage, as opposed to 22 and 26.
15 heat VS 14 and 20

Not to mention the ShadowCat gets an extra trudub

Do people really run the Arrow stock? I tried it for a while, but found that it just didn't work.

[Templar Dane]

Mcgral18, on 28 May 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

And because of that, it laservomits worse, nor can it bring SRMs if it brings LPLs (12 tons, that leaves 3 tons...unless you want to sacrifice the Jesus Box, or bring SRM2s)

I did the Math; it does less for more heat, and more range. Fridge will win brawls due to hardpoints. That 5th hardpoint makes a difference.

3 tons = 2x CSRM 4s and one ton of ammo. Or could drop the ML, and do 3x CSRM 2s and 2x LPL and have more ammo. Or Just do 3x MPL and CSRM 6s.

While multiple ballistics aren't as good as multiple energy, at least it can do things the ferret can't.

[Nori Silverrage]

I think it'll do well as a assult support mech and as a ecm sniper, whether it be jump or not. I'm thinking of it as a Clan JJ ECM Raven with more firepower and likely better hitboxes.

2xLPL with 13DHS and ECM is a great sniper build.
2xERLL with some SRMs, or just lots of heatsinks.
Can do streaks pretty well too.

Should be able to do Gauss 3t ammo and a backup ERML.

[Widowmaker1981]

Mcgral18, on 28 May 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

Actually, it doesn't.


Fridge laservomits better.

Silly, I know, but 5 ERMLs and 16 DHS, with a TC1 is a built the Cat can never do. While consistently running 142.

30 heat for 35 damage, with 16 heatsinks.
Best the Cat can do is 2 LPLs and a ERML with 12, without ghost heat. That's 36 heat for 33 damage.


The Cat severely lacks firepower, with fewer E hardpoints than the already hardpoint lacking lights.
It will do long range better; one of the best, likely (between hardpoints, ECM and JJs). But it will be pretty bad in a 1 VS 1 fight. A slightly hotter Arrow (while being faster, and less durable) is the other option, if you remove the Jesus Box.

except its 26 heat for 33 dmg, not 36, at far longer range, with high mounted hardpoints, jump jets and ECM.

2xLPL + 1xERML on the Scat craps all over 5 ERMLs on the Fridge, any day of the week, for me at least.

[Khobai]

Quote

I mean: Its not a bad mech, but it will have to compete against the Stormcrow which that mech simply can't.

I disagree. Shadowcat has MASC, Jumpjets, and ECM. Stormcrow doesnt even come close to that amount of tech.

Shadowcat is going to be the best harasser/flanker medium in the game. Its going to be like a Shadowhawk on steroids.

Theres how much damage you do and then theres where you do the damage. A Shadowcat shooting an assault in the back is worth a heck of a lot more than a Stormcrow shooting it in the front. A Shadowcat played properly will be every bit as deadly as a Stormcrow if not moreso.

Edited by Khobai, 28 May 2015 - 11:34 AM.

[Eider]

Comparing any mech to the trinity is why clanners think no mech is good enough.

[1453 R]

Túatha Dé Danann, on 28 May 2015 - 10:03 AM, said:

Well, the 11 tons were already with the additional DHS you need to have this thing halfway cool. Its just the overkill on stuff which make this mech worser than it should be, like 6 Jump Jets. Nobody needs 2 JJ, 2 are more than enough. Same goes with assault battlemechs with fixed JJ - they just destroy the mechs performance for close to no reason.

In the end, 1 Gauss + 2 Medlaser might be the best solution anyway, but I don't really like it. :/

Horse. P!ss.

Everyone complains about HoverJets and how unbearably awful jump jets are, and yet no one is ever willing to take more than two jump jets.

Has anyone ever thought that maybe, just maybe, if you want to jump instead of hover, you need to take more than one jet?

My six-jet GHR-5J jumps just fine for its size. The 5-jet Summoner jumps well enough as well, and 5-jet mediums like the Nova jump about as well as anyone could reasonably expect. Now don't get me wrong, jump jets aren't much fun right now - I feel like they really, really need better acceleration, and if we get shorter burn times so Piranha can keep the overall jump height the same then oh well - but the days of one-and-done for jump jets are over. People need to get that antique notion out of their head.

Anyways.

The Shadow Cat has a bevy of toys I'm looking forward to using. It's not going to be popular with the folks who cut absolutely everything that isn't gun or ammo out of their 'Mechs, but for folks who go in for electronics or special functionality? This is going to be a blast. I don't have a Stormcrow's firepower, but I can jump, I get ECM stealth, I get a burst of SupahSpeed, and what weapons I do have are all pretty much cockpit height or better. It's not intended to fight like a Stormcrow; we have Stormcrows for when we want to fight like Stormcrows. This sucker is intended to be a sneakity stabbity guerrilla that shoots you in the rear o'da pants with some nasty heavy-gun payload, then fades out of sight before you can bother finding where it went. I am honestly considering cER-PPCs for it; sluggard projectiles or not, a midrange bandit build with PPCs might well be worth investigating.

if you want it to compete directly with the Stormcrow...well, prepare for disappointment. If you want it to be a Shadow Cat instead, then let's have some fun.

[Khobai]

they need to make jumpjets on non-S omnipods removeable. only the jumpjets on S-omnipods should be locked because the entire point of S-omnipods is to add jump capability to the mech, so being able to remove jumpjets from S-omnipods would make no sense.

[Mcgral18]

Widowmaker1981, on 28 May 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:

except its 26 heat for 33 dmg, not 36, at far longer range, with high mounted hardpoints, jump jets and ECM.

2xLPL + 1xERML on the Scat craps all over 5 ERMLs on the Fridge, any day of the week, for me at least.

You're right.


Still, run that build on the Crow (same TrueDubs, same hardpoints available, good template, aside from longer burn times)

Too hot for my liking, and 16 heatinks do cool better than 12, and offset that 4 heat difference.

Edited by Mcgral18, 28 May 2015 - 11:47 AM.

[1453 R]

Crow doesn't jump, sprint, or benefit from ECM. Or weigh ten tons less than itself.

People keep wanting the Shadow Cat to compete directly with the Stormcrow. It's not going to do that - yes, the Stormcrow will take the Shadow Cat apart in a direct face-to-face firefight. The point is that the Shadow Cat is supposed to use its jets, sprint, and ECM to ensure it's never caught in that sort of lopsided firefight in the first place.

[Widowmaker1981]

Mcgral18, on 28 May 2015 - 11:41 AM, said:

You're right.


Still, run that build on the Crow (same TrueDubs, same hardpoints available, good template, aside from longer burn times)

Too hot for my liking, and 16 heatinks do cool better than 12, and offset that 4 heat difference.

You are right in that it will probably be a touch hot - ill probably end up running it with 2xLPL, stripped left arm and 14 DHS

[Templar Dane]

1453 R, on 28 May 2015 - 11:44 AM, said:

Crow doesn't jump, sprint, or benefit from ECM. Or weigh ten tons less than itself.

People keep wanting the Shadow Cat to compete directly with the Stormcrow. It's not going to do that - yes, the Stormcrow will take the Shadow Cat apart in a direct face-to-face firefight. The point is that the Shadow Cat is supposed to use its jets, sprint, and ECM to ensure it's never caught in that sort of lopsided firefight in the first place.

Yeah, scat is a 45 ton mech, crow is 55 ton. What they should be comparing it to is the ice ferret, and if you ask me the scat is the better of the two.

[Brody319]

2 LPLs + 6 Machine guns.

[Xetelian]

Khobai, on 28 May 2015 - 11:23 AM, said:

I disagree. Shadowcat has MASC, Jumpjets, and ECM. Stormcrow doesnt even come close to that amount of tech.

Shadowcat is going to be the best harasser/flanker medium in the game. Its going to be like a Shadowhawk on steroids.

Theres how much damage you do and then theres where you do the damage. A Shadowcat shooting an assault in the back is worth a heck of a lot more than a Stormcrow shooting it in the front. A Shadowcat played properly will be every bit as deadly as a Stormcrow if not moreso.

Break this mech down into 2 distinct variables.

Stormcrow has more E hardpoints
Stormcrow has less fixed equipment (if any).

These two things make me think that the Scat is going to be trash.

DoA because I said so.

[Templar Dane]

Xetelian, on 28 May 2015 - 12:49 PM, said:

Break this mech down into 2 distinct variables.

Stormcrow has more E hardpoints
Stormcrow has less fixed equipment (if any).

These two things make me think that the Scat is going to be trash.

DoA because I said so.

Scat also is 10 tons lighter, has jets, ecm, and doesn't suffer from any negative quirks.......

[1453 R]

The six-MG model is hilarious but I don't see it making much of an impact. You give up ECM for three of those machine guns (clearly Piranha's intent, the jerkwhales), and even with six of the things you need to do the Care Bear Stare to get any work done with them. Shadow Cats aren't built for that sort of thing even in short bursts - if you're staring down a target at machine-gun range in a Shadow Cat, you're shortly going to find yourself in a bunch of Shadow Scrap instead.

Now, a cLBX/20 model using the ECM and M.A.S.C. to dive in, unload a faceful of buckshot on someone, and dip out again? That could be both amazing fun and also surprisingly effective. Mate it to a pair of cSPL and see what you can get done with a backstabbing rogue style build.

[Mcgral18]

1453 R, on 28 May 2015 - 12:54 PM, said:

The six-MG model is hilarious but I don't see it making much of an impact. You give up ECM for three of those machine guns (clearly Piranha's intent, the jerkwhales), and even with six of the things you need to do the Care Bear Stare to get any work done with them. Shadow Cats aren't built for that sort of thing even in short bursts - if you're staring down a target at machine-gun range in a Shadow Cat, you're shortly going to find yourself in a bunch of Shadow Scrap instead.

Now, a cLBX/20 model using the ECM and M.A.S.C. to dive in, unload a faceful of buckshot on someone, and dip out again? That could be both amazing fun and also surprisingly effective. Mate it to a pair of cSPL and see what you can get done with a backstabbing rogue style build.

Impossible to mount an LB20x, fixed armour slots and JJs in the torso.

UAC20 it can do; but not recommended.

[1453 R]

Mcgral18, on 28 May 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:

Impossible to mount an LB20x, fixed armour slots and JJs in the torso.

UAC20 it can do; but not recommended.

BEH.

They need to knock that off, mang. The GigaShotgun is so much fun, and this woulda been such a great delivery platform for it. Freg. Stupid locked internals...and the Spheroids keep saying those're a nonissue for inter-tech balance...Y_Y