91 replies to this topic

[CrushLibs]

For everyone's info a base TW has a 7.5 tons more engine 375xl vs 325xl and 2 DHS more 2 tons = 9.5 tons

So the EJ has technically 1/2 ton less pod space than the TW but is 10 tons lighter which is cool.

GAS you could be right depending on hit box size on its side torso. Time will tell. On paper several Clan mechs look good but in game reality kicks in and they sucks balls.

[Pariah Devalis]

CrushLibs, on 28 May 2015 - 04:24 PM, said:

For everyone's info a base TW has a 7.5 tons more engine 375xl vs 325xl and 2 DHS more 2 tons = 9.5 tons

So the EJ has technically 1/2 ton less pod space than the TW but is 10 tons lighter which is cool.

GAS you could be right depending on hit box size on its side torso. Time will tell. On paper several Clan mechs look good but in game reality kicks in and they sucks balls.

Actually, a fully armored, but weaponless, TBR has a total of 27-tons to work with. A fully armored, but weaponless, EBJ has 28.5-tons to work with. Additional built in heatsinks in the TBR are not strictly valid concerns, especially as the EBJ is an ideal platform to mount multiple ballistics on (should CUACs get some love). This includes 2xGauss Rifles as an option, since you can easily cram in 2 GR and 5 tons of ammo with the tiniest amount of armor shaving, which should be generally sufficient for most non-CW games.

Same speed, 10 tons lighter. Fantastic weapon placement on the mech, physically. Looks like a T1 contender, hands down.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 28 May 2015 - 04:35 PM.

[CrushLibs]

forgot to compensate for a lighter chassis 75t vs 65t but is that 2 tons??

[Templar Dane]

CrushLibs, on 28 May 2015 - 04:41 PM, said:

forgot to compensate for a lighter chassis 75t vs 65t but is that 2 tons??

Not sure if he was counting masc and/or how much it weighs.

edit

Apparently I'm a ****** because I thought it had masc

Edited by lordtzar, 28 May 2015 - 05:13 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

CrushLibs, on 28 May 2015 - 04:41 PM, said:

forgot to compensate for a lighter chassis 75t vs 65t but is that 2 tons??

1.5 tons in favor of the lighter mech, yes. EBJ is a gunboat.

[1453 R]

The Cauldron-Born is going to be a pretty phenomenal weapons platform. It won't be as good at da meesailes as the Timber Wolf or the Mad Doge, given that its M hardpoints are spread all over and collectively preclude energy mounts, but it takes a gigantic dump on every other Clan heavy's ballistics capabilities, and does much the same to all the Clan assaults not named Dire Whale, to boot. This is going to be the first truly viable non-Whale dual Gauss platform the Clans have, and if Clan autocannons ever stop sucking it's also going to be the premier Clan ballistics choice.

Its hitboxes might drop it down a tier or so due to fragility, but I honestly can't see the CBN being anything less than a high-performing T2. The modelers would have to be deliberately out to butcher it and take some serious licenses with Alex's art in order to mangle the geometry enough to mediocre-ize something with those hardpoints and enough pod space to make use of them.

The Cheetah and the Cauldron-Born are going to be amazeballs, the Shadow Cat's going to be a good-to-great non-traditional choice depending on M.A.S.C., and the Executioner...may or may not suck depending on final hitbox arrangement and also how M.A.S.C. works. If we get an assault 'Mech able to sprint ninety - or, and join me in prayer everyone, a hundred - with significantly more weapon load than the Garfayle and 95-tonner armor...well, that sounds like a good time to me.

[Kilo 40]

The shadow cat is going to be my go to mech with 3 ERmediums and 2 LRM10s with 6ish tons of ammo.

[InspectorG]

Im interested.

It seems like the Clan version of the Cicada. That might be able to poptart.

Kilo 40, on 28 May 2015 - 05:19 PM, said:

The shadow cat is going to be my go to mech with 3 ERmediums and 2 LRM10s with 6ish tons of ammo.

That should be able to scare some Pugs up real nice. Mobile, invisible LuRMs for the troll.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

A lot of opinions in here (and a little bit of people being pissed over an opinion, but hey, this game is for kids too).

As many of you say, the Shadow Cat will have a different role, but that does not mean, that you cannot compare it with other mechs surrounding it. We have the Ice Ferret, which will be instadropped once the Shadow Cat is out, just because of having JJ and ECM alone, this makes this mech more usable in CW.

But, I'm not talking about CW here. CW can and will change. If you compare mechs, you look around the overall lineup. Maybe some of you have noticed the other bad mechs I mentioned which need some love too - and with this, I layed out some generalized methods to solve bad mechs being bad without making the good ones up and away.

This includes:
- Making JJ dynamic
- Switching Endo with Ferro if possible
- Adapt some hardpoints on mechs who deserve it (Summoner as prominent example)

Those changes can be adapted to other mechs too, like in this case the Shadowcat and thus my suggestions to adapt some hardpoints.

After that, you can now compare any Clan mech with each other. There will still be a difference, they will berform in a different way (which is good) but they are not artificially nerfed by the (often stupid) lore stock loadout.

And yes, I can compare the Shadow Cat with the Storm Crow, as I can compare a Blackjack with a Shadow Hawk.

[Beastbear]

Túatha Dé Danann, on 29 May 2015 - 01:16 AM, said:

A lot of opinions in here (and a little bit of people being pissed over an opinion, but hey, this game is for kids too).

As many of you say, the Shadow Cat will have a different role, but that does not mean, that you cannot compare it with other mechs surrounding it. We have the Ice Ferret, which will be instadropped once the Shadow Cat is out, just because of having JJ and ECM alone, this makes this mech more usable in CW.

But, I'm not talking about CW here. CW can and will change. If you compare mechs, you look around the overall lineup. Maybe some of you have noticed the other bad mechs I mentioned which need some love too - and with this, I layed out some generalized methods to solve bad mechs being bad without making the good ones up and away.

This includes:
- Making JJ dynamic
- Switching Endo with Ferro if possible
- Adapt some hardpoints on mechs who deserve it (Summoner as prominent example)

Those changes can be adapted to other mechs too, like in this case the Shadowcat and thus my suggestions to adapt some hardpoints.

After that, you can now compare any Clan mech with each other. There will still be a difference, they will berform in a different way (which is good) but they are not artificially nerfed by the (often stupid) lore stock loadout.

And yes, I can compare the Shadow Cat with the Storm Crow, as I can compare a Blackjack with a Shadow Hawk.

You cant argue that on 1 front and not the other though. Yes cw may change, but then so could the stats on any mech you're comparing it to, as evidenced by the recent crow nerfs(or side grades or whatever you want to call the change).

As has been mentioned several times it has a different role and play style, and will be closer to a better light than a heavily armed medium. I intend on running 1 Lpl 2mpl and sticking to hit and fade attacks/support roles, which should be quite effective till it runs into pack light hunters

[STEF_]

Túatha Dé Danann, on 29 May 2015 - 01:16 AM, said:

And yes, I can compare the Shadow Cat with the Storm Crow, as I can compare a Blackjack with a Shadow Hawk.

Of course we can, but a mech with 10 tons more is (usually) better inside the same weight bracket.
And this is a reason why I would like PGI to change that 3/3/3/3 mode, and a tons based drop should be fair and much better, imo.

That's why a lot here are compairing the thwo mechs in CW: crows is better in medium solo/group que, but in CW Shadowcat is 10 tons less, so you can have 10 tons more for the other 3 mechs; and it can be useful since the other contender (the ferret) is quite meh.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

Beastbear, on 29 May 2015 - 01:36 AM, said:

You cant argue that on 1 front and not the other though. Yes cw may change, but then so could the stats on any mech you're comparing it to, as evidenced by the recent crow nerfs(or side grades or whatever you want to call the change).

As has been mentioned several times it has a different role and play style, and will be closer to a better light than a heavily armed medium. I intend on running 1 Lpl 2mpl and sticking to hit and fade attacks/support roles, which should be quite effective till it runs into pack light hunters

You are correct - we may not know what or what not will be done with other mechs. But thats a point hard to discuss about, as we do not know what will happen anyway.

As for the Shadowcat, you could of course play it with 2x LPL an 1x Medlaser. But would you, if you could... for example fit in 6 medium lasers and the rest with DHS? (Just in theory speaking)

Its the "Summoner" problem. The limited hardpoints combined with the fixed internals throw that mech down. Its only saving grace is the ECM and the rest must be compensated with sneak attacks, limiting its use for the team as you lose variety of usage. This mech got the firepower of an Adder with similar hardpoints, but JJ and ECM. Its practically the mech we wanted the Adder to be - but 3 Laser hardpoints won't cut it. The DPS is much too low, esp. regarding the fact, that after that you have tonnage for just two more DHS, which will make this mech rather hot.

You can still play it, but it will be "meh" like the Ferret.

Edited by Túatha Dé Danann, 29 May 2015 - 01:59 AM.

[Vellron2005]

I'm probably gonna run the Shadowcat... might even squeeze out some of my other mechs from my dropdeck..

[Túatha Dé Danann]

I will use it too (just not for CW because I'm in an IS aligned unit) - at least this should give you a hint, that I don't care about Clan or IS in that regard, I just don't want to see mechs on the battlefield which are always "bad".

IS mechs can compensate with Quirks - a stop gap method that works for some mechs, but threw away the former Tier 1 mechs down into nothingness. Thats a problem that still has to be adressed.
But the same thing goes for the Clan mechs. There are mechs which are always a worser choice than there surrounding ones - like the Summoner. 5 tons more, you have a Mad Cat, 5 tons less, you have the Hellbringer/Cauldron Born. Now, is the sommoner somewhere in between those mechs in terms of performance? Or does it show any kind of special usability that still makes this mech useful? Are the JJ worth the tonnage? Are the hardpoints justified? Would the ability to equip Endo Steel solve its bad performance?

This goes into the realms of cross-balancing - and when watching it from this perspective, the Shadow Cat is just another "meh" mech, because of the reasons I stated in my initial post. It wouldn't hurt to make 4 of the 6 JJ flexible so that the player has the choice. It wouldn't hurt to add 2 or 3 more energy hardpoints. Thats all I want and the mech would be "fine".

For other "bad" mechs, we could have a similar discussion.

[Kilo 40]

Túatha Dé Danann, on 29 May 2015 - 01:57 AM, said:

but 3 Laser hardpoints won't cut it. The DPS is much too low,

there are other weapons besides lasers, and the SC has a good mix of all the weapon hard point types.

expand your horizons.

Quote

esp. regarding the fact, that after that you have tonnage for just two more DHS, which will make this mech rather hot.

with 12 double heat sinks 2 lpl and 1 ermed would run about 37% heat efficiency. very playable.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

Kilo 40, on 29 May 2015 - 02:18 AM, said:

there are other weapons besides lasers, and the SC has a good mix of all the weapon hard point types.

expand your horizons.

I've posted 4 alternatives already. Thank you.

Quote

with 12 double heat sinks 2 lpl and 1 ermed would run about 37% heat efficiency. very playable.

And with just one Medium Laser it runs even cooler!
Again: I said DPS - which is on Smurfy on a substitude mech below 3. Thats lower than my Adder with 4 MPL, thats lower than an IS-Light. You still think its good?

It will still have its usage, but it underperforms.

Edited by Túatha Dé Danann, 29 May 2015 - 02:28 AM.

[Kilo 40]

Túatha Dé Danann, on 29 May 2015 - 02:26 AM, said:

I've posted 4 alternatives already. Thank you.

yet the point I was replying to is that 3 energy points just isn't enough. It is.

Quote

And with just one Medium Laser it runs even cooler!
Again: I said DPS - which is on Smurfy on a substitude mech below 3. Thats lower than my Adder with 4 MPL, thats lower than an IS-Light. You still think its good?

you said 2 LPL and 1 medium with only 2 DHS would run too hot. and as I said, 37% is far from too hot. especially for a clan mech.

[Widowmaker1981]

Túatha Dé Danann, on 29 May 2015 - 01:16 AM, said:

A lot of opinions in here (and a little bit of people being pissed over an opinion, but hey, this game is for kids too).

As many of you say, the Shadow Cat will have a different role, but that does not mean, that you cannot compare it with other mechs surrounding it. We have the Ice Ferret, which will be instadropped once the Shadow Cat is out, just because of having JJ and ECM alone, this makes this mech more usable in CW.

But, I'm not talking about CW here. CW can and will change. If you compare mechs, you look around the overall lineup. Maybe some of you have noticed the other bad mechs I mentioned which need some love too - and with this, I layed out some generalized methods to solve bad mechs being bad without making the good ones up and away.

This includes:
- Making JJ dynamic
- Switching Endo with Ferro if possible
- Adapt some hardpoints on mechs who deserve it (Summoner as prominent example)

Those changes can be adapted to other mechs too, like in this case the Shadowcat and thus my suggestions to adapt some hardpoints.

After that, you can now compare any Clan mech with each other. There will still be a difference, they will berform in a different way (which is good) but they are not artificially nerfed by the (often stupid) lore stock loadout.

And yes, I can compare the Shadow Cat with the Storm Crow, as I can compare a Blackjack with a Shadow Hawk.

But in CW, the mechs perform completely different roles. StormCrows are brawlers and light hunters, Shadow Cats will be snipers, not to mention the fact that they are 10 tons lighter, giving space elsewhere for heavier mechs.

The fact is, if the Shadow Cat could mount the same firepower as a Storm Crow it would be hideously OP. Its 10 tons lighter, it has better located hardpoints, can Jump (and it will really FLY btw) and has ECM. So of course it can't run the same kind of damage output, that would be ridiculous. The 6 laser hardpoints you suggest would make it brokenly good.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 29 May 2015 - 02:32 AM.

[Beastbear]

Túatha Dé Danann, on 29 May 2015 - 02:26 AM, said:

I've posted 4 alternatives already. Thank you.





And with just one Medium Laser it runs even cooler!
Again: I said DPS - which is on Smurfy on a substitude mech below 3. Thats lower than my Adder with 4 MPL, thats lower than an IS-Light. You still think its good?

It will still have its usage, but it underperforms.

does the 3l underperform? I envision it will play out the same role in it's own class, but with the agility of jumpjets and able to hit harder. To follow your logic it means it's a bad mech, because it can only take 3e compared to the fs9's

Edited by Beastbear, 29 May 2015 - 02:46 AM.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

Widowmaker1981, on 29 May 2015 - 02:31 AM, said:

But in CW, the mechs perform completely different roles. StormCrows are brawlers and light hunters, Shadow Cats will be snipers, not to mention the fact that they are 10 tons lighter, giving space elsewhere for heavier mechs.

The fact is, if the Shadow Cat could mount the same firepower as a Storm Crow it would be hideously OP. Its 10 tons lighter, it has better located hardpoints, can Jump (and it will really FLY btw) and has ECM. So of course it can't run the same kind of damage output, that would be ridiculous. The 6 laser hardpoints you suggest would make it brokenly good.

Its hard limited by its pod space. I still see your arguments, but here is the thing: A sniper does not really need MASC, right?

In CW, an ECM mech always runs with the pack, in CW a mech equipped with MASC to be fast is used as a flanker/brawler (like we use lights), its fast and it has Jump Jets. Every piece of equipment in the screams "I'll make it possible to get close, fast and then unleash my firepower once I can see the red in their eyes".

Using it as a sniper may be possible, but is NOT the way the rest of the mech is build upon.

What I see in this mech is more like the Nova - like 8-10 Small lasers. THAT would fit the bill.

Beastbear, on 29 May 2015 - 02:40 AM, said:

does the 3l underperform? I envision it will play out the same role in it's own class, but with the agility of jumpjets and able to hit harder. To follow your logic it means it's a bad mech, because it can only take 1 llas compared to the fs9's

Luckily the LPL got a somewhat reasonable buff esp. towards the non 2.0 heatsinks, every point of less heat counts. Thats why they work... barely. They still use a lot of tonnage for their performance, esp. compared to the Medium Lasers. You could go 2 Medium lasers or 1 LPL - the difference is small in the overall performance, but you save yourself 4 tons, which you can use on mechs which have a lot of space free for DHS to compensate. But you still see them esp. on mechs with limited energy hardpoints.

For the Shadow Cat, 4-5 Energy hardpoints would be "balanced", 6 would bring it into the realms of a pocket Hellbringer.

Edited by Túatha Dé Danann, 29 May 2015 - 02:51 AM.