Clan vs IS equilibrium will take years. Quirks are needed for the foreseeable future. If you nerfed the **** out of all the clan lasers, what's the point? Right now, as things are, why would anybody take a TBR over a thunderbolt? People are fitting pulse lasers and missiles over the laser vomit, why not just take the thunderbolt and not have to deal with the mickey mouse ears?
IS still has their laser vomit. IS still gonna spam large lasers. The recent clan nerfs were kneejerk reactions to people using the two best clan mechs....a lot....and it never even dawned on them to consider why.
IS have good light mechs, good medium mechs, good heavy mechs, and good assaults. Clan had one good medium, two good heavies, and 1.5 good assaults. If there had been a better selection, there wouldn't have been so many TBRs and SCRs.
And then unjustified nerfs come. What as it, 40% more IS players? When the typical reaction in mmos is to join the "best" side. Devs that don't play the game, listening to biased players.....ugh
Spoiler
They need to ignore the timeline. Need to, for the sake of the game. It needs LACs, PPC capacitors or HPPCs, LPPCs, and ER Lasers at the bare minimum, and LFEs to really round it out. If you give the IS their ER lasers, if you make IS and Clan ER lasers of the same size have the same impulse damage within their ranges, and if give IS ER lasers a slight range advantage over Clan ER lasers to partially balance the max damage, and if you remove all laser quirks except maybe heat (IS still have that huge cap problem), we'd already be in much better shape than we are now. (Note, full range-damage balance would be at the intersection point where, say, a C-ERML does 5 damage, and that's an absurd 520 meters and gives the IS ERML a huge advantage in impulse damage at that range that would be exploited to high heaven). LACs allow IS 'Mechs to reasonably bring ballistics without having to either have the durability of tissue paper or the running speed equivalent to a snail, but won't provide any sort of real edge since they also have a hefty range hit. They might even allow for the toning down of heat quirks on 'Mechs with ballistic hardpoints. PPC caps and LPPCs allow the IS to bring the same level of firepower as the C-ERPPC with a two-slot and two-ton penalty and lower range, balanced out by the options to fire more frequently and with lower damage and heat. If PPC capacitor is too hard (shouldn't be, Gauss code can be modified for it), HPPC provides similar coverage. LFEs allow for a possible lowering of heat quirks since they open tonnage for sinks, but that's a maybe because they also eat slots, and IS 'Mechs with Clan-competitive firepower are usually starved for both tons and slots (STK-4N only has 20 DHS, for example).
Do all of that, and you can remove almost all of the weapon quirks, except perhaps heat. You can also give Clans full 15 pinpoint to PPCs, no negative quirks to cool-down and duration, lower heat on the Clan lasers, and other things I'm sure I haven't thought of.
Next, I do not think these Clan nerfs are good. They are terrible. Awful. Totally wrong implementation, hitting general energy and lasers on an omni-pod level. The C-ERML just needed a small, 8.7% blanket hit to duration. Leave the C-LPL alone for all I care. Nothing was necessary on cool-down. I think the C-ERLL needs a buff to 1.4 seconds duration.
As for what's the point, Clans can maintain a max damage advantage, a general speed advantage, and better damage/range per ton/slot spent. But the IS need to have definite advantages of their own. 'Mech customization doesn't mean anything if the available options can't compete without stupid and messy quirks or dramatic up-tonning of the 'Mech.
Aresye Kerensky, on 29 May 2015 - 03:41 PM, said:
I'm sorry, but that's a steaming load ofBULL F****** $&*%
The 65t TDR-5SS w/ 7 MPL weighs the same tonnage, and has the same damage output as a 6 CERML HBR with a 42 alpha. With quirks, it can do full damage with those 7 MPL up to 385m, giving the HBR a whopping 20m advantage in range (aka: yes, that's "twenty" meters).
Now, the 5SS can do all those 42 points of damage within 0.6s. The HBR, at 1.15s, has to stay exposed for nearly DOUBLE the amount of time in order to do its full 42 points of damage.
What do you think the 5SS is doing after it's done firing? Lingering around letting the HBR do full damage? Not twisting? No, it's going to go back behind cover to recharge, or twist away to spread incoming damage.
That's what you don't understand about this argument. You say the IS player has to shoot more often, which is true with certain builds, but then you go on to say that the IS pilot can only shoot while the Clan player is exposed, which I guess is also true, but you're doing your calculations with the assumption that the IS player will continue to stand there taking it while its weapons are recharging, which is plain idiotic.
The TDR-5SS weighs the same as the HBR, yet its side torsos have 15 more HP each, does the same damage for less heat in half the duration, has NEARLY the same range, runs a standard engine, has at least 3-4 of its weapons left if it gets either torso shot off, no heat penalty for losing a side torso, and runs just under 7kph slower.
Spoiler
No, you still don't understand. You have the general concept, but you are not grasping the details.
Let's take a look:
C-MPL has impulse damage of 9.85 DPS. That, multiplied by 5, gives an impulse rate of 49.25 and by 6 is 59.1.
The IS MPL has an impulse damage of 10 DPS. Multiplied by 7, the resulting impulse rate is 70.
Looking at that, no sh*t the Thud is winning, it's demonstrating my described concept and math cleanly and perfectly in spite of the fact that one of the 'Mechs has more guns, which should normally invalidate the comparison. Higher impulse damage at a given engagement range equals winning because you can do at least the same damage as your enemy in less time, thereby lowering your exposure. This is part of why the C-ERML and C-LPL are so superior to their current IS answers (LPL is not the answer to C-LPL, btw) and why you can't just look at duration alone. The edge on the Thud is massive per-laser and stacks very quickly with the number of lasers. Whether we're talking about the damage over 0.1 seconds or 0.9 seconds between two lasers is immaterial, because you have to divide total damage over total duration to get there. That's the number you should be concerned with, and that's the number where most Clan lasers have an advantage on top of all their other advantages.
And it's not even as simple as doing that math. Let's go back to C-ERML and ISML:
C-ERML has impulse damage of 6.09 DPS. That, multiplied by 3, gives an impulse rate of 18.27.
The IS ML has an impulse damage of 5.56 DPS. Multiplied by 3, the resulting impulse rate is 16.67.
The C-ERML user can pull off of the target at 0.83 seconds of burn and do the same 15 points of damage as the IS ML, lowering its exposure. There's no penalty that won't be recouped within two seconds. IS user can bring more lasers to compensate, but he's always behind on damage per gun and impulse per gun. It never catches up.
So like I said earlier, normally greater impulse is balanced by drawbacks in weight, heat, and/or range. It is balanced that way with a regular MedPulse. The Thud is broken as hell because it's been mega-buffed to 352 meters fully moduled. It's using super-charged MedPulse to fill the role that Medium X-Pulse are supposed to fill but doing it without adjusting duration like X-pulse ostensibly would to balance firepower against C-Pulse. It's utterly insane in all the wrong ways. If it were the normal 220 meters, then it would have every right to clobber the crap out of a Hellbringer because it is spending more tons and slots on guns while starved for tons and slots by nature of IS engines, DHS, and endo, while the HBR was stupid enough to let it get that close despite its hefty range and speed advantages.
What I want to do is remove all of these bullsh*t weapon quirks, bring in the appropriate IS response weapons from up to 3070, make some minor adjustments for utility parity, and call it a day. Weapon quirks mean you have to adjust over 200 'Mech variants, which invites opportunity for totally broken sh*t like the Thunderbolt 5SS.
I'm going to stay out of this for the most part but where are you getting that number? By my calculations including the range module it should be 220*1.6 = 352m and then you're being disingenuous anyways by not including the range module on both sides so a proper comparison would be 352 to 445.5 or a range difference of 93.5 meters, not 20 meters.
You can go back to your rant now.
Perhaps you are forgetting to factor in the 50% Medium Pulse Laser range quirk along with the 25% Energy Weapon Range quirk? That's a 75% range quirk to the 7 MPL build.
220 * 0.75 = 165
220 + 165 = 385
It's cute you forgot to factor in the most important part of the mech for your rebuttal though.
Sources:
Smurfy's Mech Lab
Snafet's Quirk List
Edited by Aresye Kerensky, 29 May 2015 - 06:12 PM.
Perhaps you are forgetting to factor in the 50% Medium Pulse Laser range quirk along with the 25% Energy Weapon Range quirk? That's a 75% range quirk to the 7 MPL build.
220 * 0.75 = 165
220 + 165 = 385
It's cute you forgot to factor in the most important part of the mech for your rebuttal though.
Sources:
Smurfy's Mech Lab
Snafet's Quirk List
There's no 75% range quirk. The quirks give it +50% on the MedPulse (25% general energy, 25% MedPulse), plus 10% module is 1.60 * 220 = 352.
I have a TDR-5SS. I've never played it outside of Testing Grounds, but I do have one. You need to go look at Smurfy again, because it doesn't have 75% improvement to range.
I stand corrected then. Snafet's quirk list is out of date, but it doesn't change my position, because my position is based on real experience playing these very IS and Clan mechs in CW, with the loadouts used in my examples.
*Edit: That was done with a STK-4N, TDR-9SE, TDR-5SS, and RVN-2X. I've only had 4 3500+ damage matches in CW. 2 of them I got over the course of 4 months while playing Clan mechs. The other 2 I got within the same week playing IS mechs.
Edited by Aresye Kerensky, 30 May 2015 - 12:43 AM.
Do we want to do all this juggling with different chassis quirks and stuff? Are clan lasers supposed to compete with unquirked IS lasers and be inferior to quirked IS lasers? What's the goal here? Do we just pick and choose, because that's what it looks like right now.
Which side has range advantage? Right now I believe the longest range lasers in the game beloag to the Zeus-9S,with an 810m range before drop-off on erLL. "Ohhh, but that's just one chas-" so ******* what?! What? Do you want to compare clan lasers to every single chassis?! Is it supposed to be balanced with every single IS chassis in the game? Well it's not! (Big surprise.) Quirks make sure that it will never be balanced across the board... Ever! Not even IS lasers are balanced with every IS chassis in the game. Why? Because PGI seems to semi-arbitrarily jerk their quirk juice out of their balance stick and smear it all over whatever it touches. We have a select few IS chassis with superior lasers dominating the top rung of laser-vana, below them there are clans and regular IS quirked lasers to some arguable degree, then below them are IS mechs with unquirked lasers. How are clan and IS lasers supposed to be balanced when Clan mechs are in the middle of the disgusting quirk sandwich mess? Go up? Go down? Go around? Make it so clans dominate all? nah. Make it so stock IS lasers are better than clans while quirked IS mechs are far better than clans? Noooo.
Quirks were a mistake.
CW was a mistake.
But before we blame PGI for balance issues, just remember that PGI works long and hard on their mistakes, so it makes it ok.
I stand corrected then. Snafet's quirk list is out of date, but it doesn't change my position, because my position is based on real experience playing these very IS and Clan mechs in CW, with the loadouts used in my examples.
I'm not questioning and have never questioned your position on the Thunderbolt. I agree, it's totally out of line. What I am and have been questioning is your take on the math behind it and laser mechanics in general, which is only half-informed.
Moldur, on 29 May 2015 - 11:46 PM, said:
Do we want to do all this juggling with different chassis quirks and stuff? Are clan lasers supposed to compete with unquirked IS lasers and be inferior to quirked IS lasers? What's the goal here? Do we just pick and choose, because that's what it looks like right now.
No, we don't want to do all this juggling. IS futuretech needs to get here and IS equipment needs to be tweaked to some sort of parity with Clan tech so no quirks are needed at all. Then we can all live happily ever after...
...except for the inbreds demanding Clans be straight-up superior in a game where they can't be. They won't be happy.
No, we don't want to do all this juggling. IS futuretech needs to get here and IS equipment needs to be tweaked to some sort of parity with Clan tech so no quirks are needed at all. Then we can all live happily ever after...
Parity would be giving Clans the option to run IS tech. Autocannons, lasers, etc. Same tonnage, crits, and stats.
I'd gladly take a reduction in range and damage if it meant I didn't have to face tank a stalker line waiting for my 1.5s ER Large to finish.
cerml time between shots is 3+1.15 seconds
IS ml time between shots is 3+0.9 seconds
cerml is 405 range
IS ml is 270 range
there are not big differences in the first three cases, however the 50% more range is very big difference
since it is an ER laser and we do not want the clan and IS equipment to be the same, lets say it keeps the 405 range
what to trade?
biggest problem is the long range high alpha for low tonnage, so i would reduce the beam dps to reduce the alpha capability and keep the damage and range
new cerml beam dps = 66% of IS ml beam dps (to mimic the IS ml range being 66% of clan erml range) = 3.704 beam dps
new cerml beam duration = 7/3.704 = 1.89 seconds
do something like this for all weapons, unlock clan equipment and upgrades, remove overdone IS quirks
Parity would be giving Clans the option to run IS tech. Autocannons, lasers, etc. Same tonnage, crits, and stats.
I'd gladly take a reduction in range and damage if it meant I didn't have to face tank a stalker line waiting for my 1.5s ER Large to finish.
It doesn't have to be quite like that. I wouldn't even mind making Inner Sphere auto-cannons burst or Clan auto-cannons slug so that both sides have the same utility. If LFEs, LACs, LPPCs, HPPCs, and Magshots show up, there's really nothing to complain about in that department for the Inner Sphere pilots. Clans can even get their full 15 pin-point C-ERPPCs, maybe even heavy lasers, too.
But what does have to happen is all like-named, non-pulse lasers need to deal the same impulse damage, with Clan tech having the option to hold on-target longer to deal greater damage and IS tech having slightly longer range to balance out that extra damage and the lower speed. IS pulse lasers need to be reverted to short range; impulse damage is their game and if you extend their range they become insanely broken. Broken on the Thunderbolt, broken on the Locust, broken on the Firestarter.
This way, nobody has an impulse advantage. All of those lasers deal the same impulse damage as their opposite numbers within the same size class, so no matter how many you stack you can always match the enemy by stacking the same quantity. If you play Clans, you can return to cover after the same number of seconds as the IS player and have done the same damage to the target as he would have done to you, but you have the option to stay exposed longer and let the beam finish to deal that extra Clan damage if you want to. The IS players get the option to engage the faster Clan 'Mechs sooner and with slightly higher impulse just outside the Clan optimum range, but the window is narrow enough that when Clans are outside their max ranges, IS 'Mechs are only really scratching paint. The greater damage values on the Clan 'Mechs causes the damage to ramp up faster than it does on the IS 'Mechs; un-moduled C-ERSL without any targeting computers do 3 damage at 280 meters, C-ERML do 5 damage at 520 meters, and C-ERLL do 9 at 900 meters.
So, technically, the Clans still have a slight range advantage, because they can do more total damage than the IS 'Mechs at IS ranges with any given gun, they just pay for any extra after the IS values with face time and lower impulse for that damage when outside optimum. Since I'm proposing that quirks be removed, Clans also have the option of combining targeting computers with modules to match and exceed the numbered range values on the IS 'Mechs, dramatically closing the gap even if the IS players bring modules of their own. The Clans remain vastly more efficient in damage per ton and retain significant advantages in heat capacity and dissipation.
Every other game balances damage with range, speed, and/or cycle time limitations. As they are, vanilla Clan equipment gets damage, speed, and range advantages with better cyclic performance over vanilla IS gear (despite burn times, Clan lasers have higher DPS and typically higher impulse). If you allow one side to have damage and general agility and the other to have range and durability, the problem disappears. Huzzah, we'd no longer need quirks at all.
biggest problem is the long range high alpha for low tonnage, so i would reduce the beam dps to reduce the alpha capability and keep the damage and range
new cerml beam dps = 66% of IS ml beam dps (to mimic the IS ml range being 66% of clan erml range) = 3.704 beam dps
new cerml beam duration = 7/3.704 = 1.89 seconds
Have you ever used lasers at a 1.8 or greater duration? There's a very good reason why the CERLL was never used when it had its short period of being up at 2.0s duration. Between mech movement, defensive twisting, hitboxes, and hitreg issues, it was basically like shooting a pillow, virtually useless against everything that doesn't stand 100% still.
Pretty much no laser should be above a 1.5s duration, and even that's pushing it. PGI should be looking at other ways to balance Clan tech, such as cooldown time, heat, etc. Either that, or they should fix HSR, so when I DO keep my aim on a component for the full duration, I do the damage I'm supposed to do.
LocationPeriphery of the Inner Sphere, moving toward the core worlds with each passing day.
Posted 31 May 2015 - 04:04 PM
Aresye Kerensky, on 30 May 2015 - 07:54 PM, said:
Have you ever used lasers at a 1.8 or greater duration? There's a very good reason why the CERLL was never used when it had its short period of being up at 2.0s duration. Between mech movement, defensive twisting, hitboxes, and hitreg issues, it was basically like shooting a pillow, virtually useless against everything that doesn't stand 100% still.
Pretty much no laser should be above a 1.5s duration, and even that's pushing it. PGI should be looking at other ways to balance Clan tech, such as cooldown time, heat, etc. Either that, or they should fix HSR, so when I DO keep my aim on a component for the full duration, I do the damage I'm supposed to do.
I would totally be fine there...give us a .25 sec longer cooldown...fine...it effectively limits the DPS beyond even heat.
Have you ever used lasers at a 1.8 or greater duration? There's a very good reason why the CERLL was never used when it had its short period of being up at 2.0s duration. Between mech movement, defensive twisting, hitboxes, and hitreg issues, it was basically like shooting a pillow, virtually useless against everything that doesn't stand 100% still.
Pretty much no laser should be above a 1.5s duration, and even that's pushing it. PGI should be looking at other ways to balance Clan tech, such as cooldown time, heat, etc. Either that, or they should fix HSR, so when I DO keep my aim on a component for the full duration, I do the damage I'm supposed to do.
currently cerml is the same as IS ml (tonnage, nearly same damage per heat, beam dps), except having more initial damage (offset by longer beam duration) and 50% more range
now, how would you balance this 50% more range (which IS can get for 4 tons more)?
also keep in mind, clans have cersl for close range (200, more comparable to IS ml 270)
People are looking at Clan laser weapons and assuming they should have 1 to 1 parity with IS laser weapons. They shouldnt.
IS can customise engine sizes. this is a BIG THING, especially for heavier mechs. Taking the Gargoyle as an example: in TT, your movement speed in hexes is engine rating/tonnage, and this must be a whole number, since you cannot move 1/2 a hex. So the Gargoyle has 2 choices: 4 movement from a 320, or 5 from a 400. You decide that you want a faster mech, so you use the 400. However in MWO speeds are done in KM/H because its real time, so this restriction is gone, your Gargoyle COULD use a 375, saving a lot of tonnage, and only moving a couple KM/H slower, its very very worth doing. The optimal engine size from MWO perspective is, for heavier mechs especially, almost never a TT possible size. Hence literally all clan mechs are saddled with an inefficient engine size (Yes, even the Timber. If it could drop to a 350 it most certainly would), because of TT construction rules that do not apply in MWO.
Clan mechs also frequently dont come with sensible upgrades (endo steel), have locked in Jumpjets and Heatsinks reducing their build options (along with not very good burst fire mode this is why you dont see clan AC builds, because you dont need heatsinks for AC builds), and have crappy ACs.
Given all these drawbacks, if all their weapons are balanced 1 to 1 with IS weapons, what would that make clans? oh yes, WORSE. I agree that clans should not be strictly better than IS mechs, but they also shouldnt be strictly worse.
Buffing clan ACs to be as good as their lasers will just make clans vastly OP. Buff their autocannons, and nerf their lasers gently. I'd really like AC's to be viable on my clan mechs.
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lordtzar, on 29 May 2015 - 02:56 PM, said:
