115 replies to this topic

[Bobzilla]

I'd argue that the range is only a factor because brawling has pretty much always been more of a risk for the reward. The advantage of range will always be a larger benifit unless something drastic changes to game mechanics or all maps are redesigned.

Current common clan loadouts are based around their advantage of range, but would loose easily to IS brawling loadouts. Unfortunately getting easily chewed up too much to reach that point isn't worth it forcing IS to play Clan style.

[Zeusus]

Elizander, on 29 May 2015 - 03:41 AM, said:

I'm more of looking at the difference rather than the weapons themselves.

And that's why the forums are full of bad ideas. Anyone who thinks clan LRMs are good needs to actually play the game... That is literally a case of 'oh noes it scared me!'

[Flutterguy]

Zeusus, on 29 May 2015 - 04:27 AM, said:

And that's why the forums are full of bad ideas. Anyone who thinks clan LRMs are good needs to actually play the game... That is literally a case of 'oh noes it scared me!'

No LRMs are good, but it's a valid point that the Clan LRMs do have a massive comparative advantage over IS LRMs.

[Elizander]

Zeusus, on 29 May 2015 - 04:27 AM, said:

And that's why the forums are full of bad ideas. Anyone who thinks clan LRMs are good needs to actually play the game... That is literally a case of 'oh noes it scared me!'

LURMageddon has happened more than once. They are under the radar now but the huge weight discrepancy remains, but if other weapons are pulled in or LRMs improved it'll float up to the surface again. Even at the point where LRMs become remotely viable the gap will be quite noticeable.

The issue is that we're going to see more 40%-50% CD quirks just so IS can match it. Clans have half weight? No problem! Just double the IS rate of fire to balance it out!

Edited by Elizander, 29 May 2015 - 07:41 AM.

[MerryIguana]

Zeusus, on 29 May 2015 - 04:27 AM, said:

And that's why the forums are full of bad ideas. Anyone who thinks clan LRMs are good needs to actually play the game... That is literally a case of 'oh noes it scared me!'

CSRMs do exist!

[Zeusus]

MerryIguana, on 29 May 2015 - 07:38 AM, said:

CSRMs do exist!

Yes which is the only clan missile worth anything. The IS cluster LRM is way better than the clan confetti. 1AMS can wipe out a clan LRM20, or an IS LRM5.

Anyone who thinks the clan vs IS LRMs are horribly unbalanced would not know balance if they saw a tight rope walker without a safety rope and doing just fine.

[MerryIguana]

Zeusus, on 29 May 2015 - 07:42 AM, said:

Anyone who thinks the clan vs IS LRMs are horribly unbalanced would not know balance if they saw a tight rope walker without a safety rope and doing just fine.

Do you see lrm mentioned in this quote?

Elizander, on 29 May 2015 - 03:41 AM, said:

I'm not sure how clan missiles are going under the radar with half weight but it might be next along with clan gauss.

Edited by MerryIguana, 29 May 2015 - 07:50 AM.

[DONTOR]

Drasari, on 28 May 2015 - 05:47 PM, said:

c-ML

I'm not familiar with this weapon. Is it new?

[Elizander]

DONTOR, on 29 May 2015 - 07:52 AM, said:

I'm not familiar with this weapon. Is it new?

Comes with the CPPC.

[Zeusus]

MerryIguana, on 29 May 2015 - 07:49 AM, said:

Do you see lrm mentioned in this quote?

Well I got 2 posts mixed up, in that the LRM posts are silly, and the guy saying all he is looking at are numbers isn't even looking at the whole issue. There are too many bad ideas in this thread to keep up.

When clan SRMs are not the only good clan missile weapon we can address them then. Or we can continue the current path of Nerf to oblivion and whine about every little imbalance.

Timber and crow were a tad OP, needed a Nerf, but all these needs across the board people are advocating are silly.

[Burktross]

Duke Nedo, on 29 May 2015 - 03:30 AM, said:

<- Liao, wtf? Suppose I have a Unit to drop when I get home from work?

One of us....

[Lugh]

lordtzar, on 28 May 2015 - 06:15 PM, said:

According to this, just one quirk would at least make them even.....

edit

I hit enter before finishing.

Was going to say that I'd like to see how they compare once you get the crazy quirks some of the IS mechs have.

The IS mech quirks put them on top by about a 10% margin on paper. Larger margin by the huge reduction is face time.

[Dolph Hoskins]

This thread should have been jettisoned immediately. A solid HELL NO is all that needs to be said here.

[Duke Nedo]

Burktross, on 29 May 2015 - 08:01 AM, said:

One of us....

No offense, genuine surprise just.. ;-)

[Aresye]

Bobzilla, on 29 May 2015 - 04:22 AM, said:

Current common clan loadouts are based around their advantage of range, but would loose easily to IS brawling loadouts. Unfortunately getting easily chewed up too much to reach that point isn't worth it forcing IS to play Clan style.

I beg to differ good sir. The CERLL is practically useless. At close range, it's incredibly difficult to fight with, and at long range, the duration of 1.5s (or longer) leads to a lot of spread damage. At medium range, the CERML is a better choice, and at that same range, most of the IS mechs built around LL quirks can both outrange and outdamage them. The only range the Clans have a true advantage in lies between a very narrow 350-500m. Close enough that CERML and CLPL can do their max damage, but not close enough to where the IS MPL boats pose a serious threat yet.

[Grimm Hammer]

Well I would like to see the IS ERLL get nerfed as well. The vast majority are now running them in CW and they are brutal. The clan mechs get less tonnage per drop, aren't they supposed to be a little stronger?

Edited by Grimm Hammer, 29 May 2015 - 10:02 AM.

[Flutterguy]

Aresye Kerensky, on 29 May 2015 - 09:57 AM, said:

I beg to differ good sir. The CERLL is practically useless. At close range, it's incredibly difficult to fight with, and at long range, the duration of 1.5s (or longer) leads to a lot of spread damage. At medium range, the CERML is a better choice, and at that same range, most of the IS mechs built around LL quirks can both outrange and outdamage them. The only range the Clans have a true advantage in lies between a very narrow 350-500m. Close enough that CERML and CLPL can do their max damage, but not close enough to where the IS MPL boats pose a serious threat yet.

What? I'll have you know the CERLL is THE premier head laser!

[Moldur]

"Clams have superior range because I try to laserboat in unquirked mechs like an idiot even though there are IS mechs with laser range quirks that outdo clans, not to mention the superior duration and heat generation."

[Aresye]

Flutterguy, on 29 May 2015 - 10:08 AM, said:

What? I'll have you know the CERLL is THE premier head laser!

For a single head energy slot it can help round out the mech, but I'm more of talking about builds like the 4 CERLL HBR. Don't get me wrong, they're great against enemies that stand perfectly still, but for a normal team, they're going to close that distance you have the advantage in very fast, and at normal fighting ranges the CERML is a better choice.

Plus, have you ever faced an IS light rush when the majority of your team is running CERLL? It literally feels helpless. You'd likely be better off running 4 Clan Laser Pointers to distract the lights.

Edited by Aresye Kerensky, 29 May 2015 - 10:20 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Widowmaker1981, on 29 May 2015 - 02:14 AM, said:

While i agree IS lasers dont need any global nerfs, why do you discount duration as a factor? The duration is 95% of the reason when i decide to use LLs over ERLLs, the heat difference is far less of a factor tbh.

You have to remember that human reaction time from your eyes seeing something to giving your hand a command to move is around 0.5s or slower for most people (those tests where you wait for a dot to change colour and click on it give overly fast results, because they remove the 'thinking time' where you need to process what is happening and what you should do)

So a laser with a 1 second duration is 50% done by the time a normal person can even start to twist, allowing maybe 30% of the beam to be defensively spread. A C-ERLL though, the reaction time is the same, so there is still 1 second of beam left when you start twisting, allowing more like 60% of the beams damage to be defensively spread. IS pulse lasers, from a defensive twisting POV are effectively PPFLD. This also applies to offense, seeing the beam, following back to the source and shooting.

TL:DR Duration is a HUGE factor in lasers effectiveness and is underestimated by too many - a large cause of the Clan laser OP belief - if you dont think duration is important, then Clan lasers seem incredibly OP. But it is important, so much so that i consider the IS-LPL to be easily the best energy weapon in the game, clans included.

Duration alone doesn't mean anything without damage, though. The trade for more up-front damage damage is supposed to be either face-time or range, but look at the numbers. A C-ERML does 6.08 damage per second over the course of the burn, while an IS ML does 5.56. If you pull your C-ERML off the target at 0.9 seconds like the IS ML does, you deal 5.48 damage. If you pull off after 0.82 seconds, you do 5 damage flat.

You can trade exposure for more damage or heat-cap for less exposure and same damage. In both cases, there is more usable range available, too. In the end, it's an unmitigated advantage. If you run the numbers for stock ERLL and the 540 m LL vs. C-ERLL and C-LPL, or any laser outside of the IS MPL and LPL, you will find a similar result. The MPL and LPL will flip the tables, but they also give up tremendously on range and can be beaten by bringing a pair lighter, lower-classed, longer-ranged Clan weapons.