144 replies to this topic

[Sarlic]

To be honest. No joke: i think we should downgrade to 8 vs 8 again.

I don't see how bigger maps will improve 12 random guys to work together.

4 vs 4 was good, 8 vs 8 was very manageable, but 12 vs 12 is just one miss. (Apart from groupplay).

[Sjorpha]

Sarlic, on 30 May 2015 - 05:54 AM, said:

To be honest. No joke: i think we should downgrade to 8 vs 8 again.

I don't see how bigger maps will improve 12 random guys to work together.

4 vs 4 was good, 8 vs 8 was very manageable, but 12 vs 12 is just one miss. (Apart from groupplay).

Why not mix it up and randomly have matches of all 3 different sizes? Should help out the MM too, it could reduce the match size before relaxing the other valves. I'd love some random variety in team sizes.

[omessiaho]

Sjorpha, on 30 May 2015 - 05:39 AM, said:

Having a matchmaker increases the chances of a good match with worthy opponents. No MM would be much worse.

Why would it be worse without matchmaker? The vast majority of players are average so in a random drop you are likely to be matched up with and against average players. If you have a high ELO the game will intentionally put you with bad players to even it out. This isn't conjecture, it is the intended purpose of the system!

[Manei Domini Krigg]

Max waiting time 1 min - after must drop and dont care elo level.

Edited by Krigg, 30 May 2015 - 08:26 AM.

[Grey Ghost]

Huh, I had no idea the group que used ELO. I thought it was solo que exclusively.

[MischiefSC]

I miss winning 18 out of 20 games when I dropped with 3 friends, I admit, in a strange sort of way.

Then I realized that it's a horrible game design and every other PvP experience you have that could be defined as 'professional' has a matchmaker/leagues/means of splitting people by skill.

Chess, being the obvious example.

How about any/all sports? There isn't just one big football group - it's broken up approximately by skill and you play against other teams in your skill bracket and range.

OP says they don't want a MM, right up until we go back to how it was and you've got ~10% of the game winning 99% of the time (there were folks with 100 game winning streaks) getting bored and 60% of the game losing 70% of their matches.

Having a MM is a more legit test of your sills. You play each match within a reasonable range of success. You succeed or fail in the long run based on your ability to IMPROVE, not just random chance. Which it is without a MM; your skill becomes less and less relevant the more random the field population is and it becomes more and more about dropping with the exceptional players or the lack of exceptional players on the other team.

The MM is why your skill matters and why some people get pissed at it. It becomes far more about how good you specifically are by balancing out the other players around you on both teams.

Want to win more? Get better. All the time, constantly. Keep pushing yourself and doing better and you'll consistently win. Flatten out or play mediocre and you'll be lucky to hit 50%, but at least then you are not a constant dead weight to your team; you're just part of the statistical sea of mediocrity in which the exceptional swim like a dolphin and the terrible flail and drown.

[Gierling]

Dedicated servers solve all problems, a dedicated server setup with respawns and drop in progress allow the playerbase to self segregate into communities of their own choosing and to freely navigate between those communities.

A noob dropping into a hardcore comp server would likely be given the names of some friendlier servers and sent on his merry way instead of being raged on. That's how videogames used to work, and it was wonderful.

[Sjorpha]

omessiaho, on 30 May 2015 - 08:16 AM, said:

Why would it be worse without matchmaker? The vast majority of players are average so in a random drop you are likely to be matched up with and against average players. If you have a high ELO the game will intentionally put you with bad players to even it out. This isn't conjecture, it is the intended purpose of the system!

Yes, and when randomly matched up mostly both with and against average players the good players would have much easier matches, therefore less challenging and more boring. This is the current problem with CW, it is way too easy mode for good players.

The optimal would of course be to have the good players play primarily with and against other good players, and according to Karl Bergs explanation in a NGNG podcast (the MM strives for a minimal standard deviation of ELO) the MM actually tries to do this, but when there is a lack of good players it has to compromise in order to reduce waiting times.

I'm also sceptical to the average ability to gauge your own skill level, most people think they are better than they are and bolster this impression with projections (blaming the "bads" on their teams) and other types of confirmation bias. In many cases having bad teammates can just as well be because you ain't really that good and are being matched accordingly.

[Johnny Z]

Nothing wrong with leaving ELO and MM in game from where I stand. But there should definately be a newbie queue for many obvious reasons. The best use of ELO would be to fill a newbie queue.

Edited by Johnny Z, 30 May 2015 - 09:18 AM.

[xe N on]

SilentWolff, on 29 May 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

That's right, I said it. This is a PvP game after all. You play to win and test your skill against your enemy, so why are we hand holding the bads that complain they can't compete?
I can see a separate queue for the first 25 games for your cadet bonus, but after that, the big boy pants need to be put on.
For me, the biggest issue is you actually punish the higher ELO players.

The matchmaker tries to emulate some sort of league tiers. League tiers are common in all sports, because there are pro athletes and causal athletes.

While the matchmaker might be replaced by some sort of league system, no tier system is bad game design.

There is a reason in sports why e.g. a causal village team consisting of people that maybe 1 time per week is not set against 1st liga professional team that train every day.

[MemeCreamSupreme]

That's utterly ********. There's no sugarcoating it. Even after Cadet matches people will drop the game if they keep losing. I certainly didn't know **** about torso twisting after cadet. and assuming you're as good as you say, you really want to constantly fight new players that can't hope to offer you a challenge? The answer to shortening comp play queues is to make the game easier to learn for new player, and get more players in general, not discourage new players. Plus that will vastly reduce the profits PGI brings in.

I mean every single competitive game on the market has some kind of Match maker. How do you even arrive at this conclusion? MWO simply doesn't have the population to support the current matchmaker, so we either need more players or a new matchmaker.

xe N on, on 30 May 2015 - 09:20 AM, said:

There is a reason in sports why e.g. a causal village team consisting of people that maybe 1 time per week is not set against 1st liga professional team that train every day.

Edit: THIS or better yet, kids play this game, there's a reason kids don't get to play professional Soccer players.

Edited by Apocalypticoreo, 30 May 2015 - 09:28 AM.

[Johnny Z]

I have been piloting lights during the event to be a good sport mostly, light mechs being the least used for MM, but there is a huge advantage to being able to get out of harms way when needed. Allows me to get a good score 90% of the time, even on bad losses, except once today where a Streak Crow came right for me and didnt let up. His mech didnt survive, my team got it, but neither did mine. Oh almost forgot the Firestarter that got my rear ct red before I knew what hit me. Same outcome.

Edited by Johnny Z, 30 May 2015 - 09:31 AM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

SilentWolff, on 29 May 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

That's right, I said it. This is a PvP game after all. You play to win and test your skill against your enemy, so why are we hand holding the bads that complain they can't compete?
I can see a separate queue for the first 25 games for your cadet bonus, but after that, the big boy pants need to be put on.
For me, the biggest issue is you actually punish the higher ELO players.
Why should I have to wait 10 minutes in the group queue to get a game?
Why should I have to be in a group of 6 or more to compete because the MM thinks I should be able carry the whole team while leveling a non elited, non meta mech?
Why does the MM pit groups of 2 and 3 high ELO players against 8, 10 or 12 man comp teams? And how is getting rolled by those group of comp teams any different than a new player getting rolled by veteran players?

So yeah, the MM needs to go.
/rant off

play CW

problem fixed

[RussianWolf]

SilentWolff, on 29 May 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

That's right, I said it. This is a PvP game after all. You play to win and test your skill against your enemy, so why are we hand holding the bads that complain they can't compete?
I can see a separate queue for the first 25 games for your cadet bonus, but after that, the big boy pants need to be put on.
For me, the biggest issue is you actually punish the higher ELO players.
Why should I have to wait 10 minutes in the group queue to get a game?
Why should I have to be in a group of 6 or more to compete because the MM thinks I should be able carry the whole team while leveling a non elited, non meta mech?
Why does the MM pit groups of 2 and 3 high ELO players against 8, 10 or 12 man comp teams? And how is getting rolled by those group of comp teams any different than a new player getting rolled by veteran players?

So yeah, the MM needs to go.
/rant off

Don't know that I've ever seen you in match,,,, But I have seen the likes of TwinkyOverlord and other high ranked players. In those same matches are players that I believe are beginners. So your point is?

[Appogee]

The Matchmaker we have now has more "release valves" than a sieve.

Edited by Appogee, 30 May 2015 - 10:19 AM.

[Void Angel]

omessiaho, on 30 May 2015 - 08:16 AM, said:

Why would it be worse without matchmaker? The vast majority of players are average so in a random drop you are likely to be matched up with and against average players. If you have a high ELO the game will intentionally put you with bad players to even it out. This isn't conjecture, it is the intended purpose of the system!

That's a huuuge misunderstanding of statistics and the matchmaker. The average will tend to be the largest demographic, bu the vast majority of players are not average - they're above or below the average. The matchmaker tries to match people with others of their own projected skill via the Elo (not an acronym) rating system; this works well for players who are close to the average, and even for most others - but less well for those on the extreme upper or lower end of the curve. What the OP is attempting to argue - all at once- is that since: long wait times are often experienced at the upper and lower ends of the scale; the Elo penalty given groups in the queue sometimes generates matches larger groups of moderately skilled player v. smaller groups of better players, or vice versa; and that the matchmaker will often match higher-Elo players with lower-Elo players due to low High-Elo population - and that therefore the entire matchmaker which works for the great majority of players should be scrapped.

The problem is that none of the facts cited actually argue for scrapping the system - they argue for overhauling it - and the last argument would not cause him not to be matched with lower-Elo players (though it wouldallow him to stack a four-man team and roll PuGs all day; good for him if he likes bullying people to feed his ego - but bad for the vast majority of the player base.) I am unimpressed with his logic, and with his character, to the extent he's shown me either.

[Zaccheus]

Mystere, on 29 May 2015 - 09:15 AM, said:

We need player separation because many have been collecting these all their lives:

Holy cow the irony of this post is delicious. The OP is effectively asking for massively one sided battles so he can curb stomp news and avoid equal-ish opponents and teams, and you are agreeing with him by pooping on the idea of participation trophies...lol. "look at these babies who need to get coddled with easy to win trophies...oh wait...I might have to play more even skilled opponents because of the match maker...I might actually face someone who can beat me...well SCREW that! Kill the matchmaker, lemme beat up on news and lower skilled players!"

The guy bemoaning participation trophy wants to be in matches that are equivelent to the new England Patriots vs a high school team when he's on the Patriots team...the irony is so ******* delicious

[Rogue Jedi]

I suspect I am an average player, but I invest a fair amount of time helping new players.

it is my opinion that we need some form of matchmaking,

I do sympathize with those of you who have to wait a long time for a match or are frequently placed on a team of "inferior" players but please try to see this from the alternate point of view, it is likely to take someone 100+ games to become competent, then another 200+ to become "good", if a new player in a stock Mech comes up against "ace" players in there fully outfitted "Meta" Mechs that new player will get frustrated and leave relatively quickly, and if the game stops getting new players it will not last much longer.

so those of you in favor of removing matchmaker do you want MWO to go offline?

I could accept the idea or putting in a "no Elo" mixed solo/group queue, however CW phase 3 with the options for 4 man teams could well be suitable for those of who do not want any form of matchmaking, unfortunately it is still a few months off

[Fleeb the Mad]

Yeesh.

Elo aside, does anyone like teams having the same kinds of mechs? You know, each side having roughly the same number of assaults and heavies, or having a similar total weight?

Need a matchmaker for that. Random matches actually means random. Teams with six lights vs teams with six assaults. Anything. Everything. With totally random matchmaking, it would be rare to get two sets of mechs that weren't lopsided one way or another, let alone players. Close matches would become exceptionally rare, due to the sheer number of cooincidences that would need to occur in order for the teams to be equal.

Also, before you decry the matchmaker invest some time into figuring out how it works. I have. This thread and most complaints are founded on utter misconception of how the system works. High Elo score players aren't made to 'carry' teams, nor does the matchmaker attempt to average team Elo scores with highs and lows. The matchmaker tries to make teams of people with similar scores, and discrepancies happen when it has to borrow people from different pools just to fill the matches.

[LORD TSARKON]