94 replies to this topic

[IraqiWalker]

DI3T3R, on 03 June 2015 - 04:26 AM, said:

IIRC, the novel "Gift of the Emperor": A Grey Knight takes a shower with the retinue of an Inquisitor and one of the women smirkingly remarks something like "What a shame."

While surgical castration is nowhere mentioned, the novels indicate that the transformation into a Space Marine kills sexual desires. They aren't sexually attracted to women and in some cases are even unable to discern whether a female is pretty or not.


Comparing BT and WH40k:
Let's say, a Clan Galaxy fields 250 Mechs and 500 Elementals. A Space Marine Chapter fields up to 900 Space Marines, up to 100 Scouts and about 20-50 (?, gut-feeling) battle-tanks. A fair fight.
A RCT fields 108 Mechs, 324 tanks, ~3000 infantry-men, some air-support. A regiment of the Imperial Guard ranges anywhere from 500 to 8000 or more infantry-men, plus tanks. Again, a fair fight.
Fairness ends when we add Waaaghs that are millions of Orks strong. Or Tyranids. Or psykers. Or daemons.

While BT and WH40k have about equal firepower n' stuff, WH40k wins with sheer numbers.

Actually, 40K doesn't use "regiment" properly. For example, one of the Cadian regiments was about half a million Guardsmen. Plus the several tens of thousands of tanks, and artillery.

Fairness really ends when we measure the tech. A single Warhound titan has more armor on it's leg than an Atlas does on it's entire body, and some of it's weapons have a smaller radius, but pack more destructive power than nukes do. The Warhound is the tiniest titan and it's taller than most mechs in BT (Shortest one is 15 meters tall, and that's the baby one). While still moving as fast as a Locust. Did I mention that it has a version of MASC that doesn't lock up the leg joints, and it can LEAP really friggin high without JJs or anything?

A common tactic Warhounds used to employ when hunting bigger titans is hide inside a building. Wait for the bigger titan to lower it's shields, and literally leap out of the building, latch onto the titan using their foot claws, and pump the head full of melta (Melta is basically directed thermobaric explosions) and plasma.

Two of it's tiniest weapons are a Megabolter that is the equivalent RAC80, and a Turbo Laser Destructor that is the equivalent of being bathed by a miniature sun. It's damage is not a number value. It's just called "Destroyer" Meaning anything the template touches regardless of it's toughness will die if hit (technically your roll to wound, and if it's wounded, it's gone, that applies to EVERYTHING. There are like a handful of things with a special rule that prevents them form being instagibbed, but they still get wounded)

Spoiler

For scale, the tiny planes attacking that warlord titan are the size of a leopard dropship, if not bigger.

That one titan is worth at least 3 Steiner companies, maybe more.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 03 June 2015 - 09:53 PM.

[Azeem447]

Iraqiwalker and Exarck do bring up some wonderfull points. If I may try to defend some of my numbers in an attempt to show how I came to them?

First of all even in lore the space marines BOLT GUN is defenently not as strong as a cannon but is instead a glorified (and REALLY COOL) grenade launcher.

for the titans, I looked up their stats and all I found was that their armor was NO better than a land raider. every one who says that a titan has more armor than a 55 ton mech or a land raider, SHOW ME! Even if I double the armor and weapons, vehicles are still inferior to battletech. yes LORE says that a titan CAN NOT BE BEAT! but CLEARLY they can. even in lore a titan falls by the hands of a (granted large amount) of orcs. if a titan was as strong as you claim than no amount of orcs should ever be able to bring even just one down.

those of you who say that warhammers range is just as good as battletech have no leg to stand on as even the battle fields show the scale of range. all fights happen around only one or two buildngs = about 30-60 meters. sorry but my measurements are correct in this.

Also I will stress that my conversions were based almost strictly off the table top games, the ONLY thing these two universes have in common! I TOTALLY concede and have conceded that lore wise warhammer 40k wins! but table top wise battle tech actually has most of the advantages.

[IraqiWalker]

Azeem447, on 04 June 2015 - 08:20 AM, said:

Iraqiwalker and Exarck do bring up some wonderfull points. If I may try to defend some of my numbers in an attempt to show how I came to them?

First of all even in lore the space marines BOLT GUN is defenently not as strong as a cannon but is instead a glorified (and REALLY COOL) grenade launcher.

Actually, If you look at it, the Bolts fired by the tiny space marine bolter is the equivalent of RPG 7s hopped up on steroids, and PCP. At it's fire rate, it's at least a RAC 5.

Azeem447, on 04 June 2015 - 08:20 AM, said:

for the titans, I looked up their stats and all I found was that their armor was NO better than a land raider. every one who says that a titan has more armor than a 55 ton mech or a land raider, SHOW ME! Even if I double the armor and weapons, vehicles are still inferior to battletech. yes LORE says that a titan CAN NOT BE BEAT! but CLEARLY they can. even in lore a titan falls by the hands of a (granted large amount) of orcs. if a titan was as strong as you claim than no amount of orcs should ever be able to bring even just one down.

That's because the scales are different, a Land Raider has more armor on it than City walls twice as tall, and thrice as thick as most mountains. So think of it this way. Your armor conversion scale was off. A single point of vehicle armor in 40K might start off the equivalent of 30 points of BT armor, but the increase is almost exponential, not linear. AV 10 is about 100+ (that's on a single facing). AV 14 is 800, on a facing. Even if we go linear, AV 10 is 300 armor on a single facing. That's the lowest vehicle armor value. Keep in mind, that it''s not distributed like in BT. Nope, every inch of that facing has that much armor protecting it. So it's not CT has 400, and STs have 200. It's CT has 800, STs have 800. Also, it's not that the titan has no better armor than a land raider, it's that a Land Raider has almost as much armor as a Titan.

Actually here's another, more BT friendly way to look at it:

Armor is based off total tonnage. A 100 ton mech can mount no more than 618 points of armor max. An Atlas weighs 100 tons. A Warhound titan weighs more than 200 tons. A Warlord is several thousand metric tons of armaggeddon. An Emperator is even bigger. So off available tonnage alone (assuming both sides use identical armor), A Warhound would have at least as much armor as an Atlas (while still moving at around 150 Kph, and having MASC that doesn't lock it's joints), and any titan bigger than that has the tonnage available to BT large capital ships, and up.

This is of course before factoring in the different materials used for armor. 40K has better armor material.

Also Orks can't really bring a titan down. Almost none of their weapons can do it. What you need to bring a titan down, is use another titan, or something almost as big, that can mount titan killing weapons. Also, Orks aren't the best choice since they are literally magic (their "teknology" works, because they think it does. Most of their guns are literally pipes welded onto boxes, with bullets inserted in them, and that's it. They didn't know about "reloading" until they started to really fight the imperium, and that's when some of their weapons started to malfunction. The ork literally yells "MOAR DAKKA!!!", and the gun automagically starts firing again.)

The problem is that the 40K scale is very off.

Azeem447, on 04 June 2015 - 08:20 AM, said:

those of you who say that warhammers range is just as good as battletech have no leg to stand on as even the battle fields show the scale of range. all fights happen around only one or two buildngs = about 30-60 meters. sorry but my measurements are correct in this.

That's another problem you have. See, in BT a hex is represented by 30 meters. However, nothing is to proper scale in 40K. The Basilisk Artillery vehicle can literally shoot shells so far, they could perform re-entry to hit something on the other side of the planet. Yet it's represented by a 270 inch range on the table.

Your measurements are wrong, because they are based on a flawed system. Why are the battlefields 30 to 60 meters? A single Warlord Titan stands taller than 60 meters.

The problem that you have is the fact that you assumed the scale is static. Let me give you an example:

Because 40K is so focused on huge, and huger. We've had matches on identical sized tables, where the scale was absolutely off. For example, an infiltration mission into a manufactorum (factory planet). While at the same time, we had another team doing an assault inside a hive city. We still used the exact same inch range numbers given to use by the rulebook. The difference is that 6 inches in the factory, translated to something along the lines of 10 meters. While in the city battle 6 inches was about 400 meters.


BT has a fixed scale: Hex = 30 meters. Half Hex height = 6 meters. 40K doesn't have that. So yes, if you converted your numbers based off the infiltration mission, sure, 40 K has shorter range. While realistically (as loosely as that word can be used here) and based off all physical descriptions of the weaponry, and armor, plus the scale of a proper battlefield, 40K has stupid long range. The King David Light Gauss Rifle has a max range of 1575 meters. That's a stunningly good range in BT. A Long Las (a sniper rifle), has about as much range in 40K. A bolter certainly doesn't reach that far, but it gets pretty close (Stalker pattern bolters can land accurate shots up to 1.2 kilometers away), and Exitus Rifle used by the Vindicare Assassins has actually more than double the range of the King David.

Azeem447, on 04 June 2015 - 08:20 AM, said:

Also I will stress that my conversions were based almost strictly off the table top games, the ONLY thing these two universes have in common! I TOTALLY concede and have conceded that lore wise warhammer 40k wins! but table top wise battle tech actually has most of the advantages.

Which I can understand, but it's flawed because BT has fixed distances. 40K, not so much. 6 inches on one battlefield can be a kilometer, on another they are 10 feet.

I've tried to merge the two games together, which is quite possible, because you can just go "the Warp did a thing", and now we're here. It can work, but the scales are so off, it's frustrating. BT has more depth, and restriction in it's TT rules than 40K does. Which is why they don't measure up on the table right.

40K doesn't represent it's own universe right on the Table (a 1000 point Space Marin army, if lore-accurate, would be about 6 marines), yet somehow it's the more successful one. Doesn't that make you wanna smack someone across the face?

Edited by IraqiWalker, 04 June 2015 - 12:28 PM.

[Nebfer]

Out side of scout Titans Battletech is in for a really bad day, they will need Capital class weapons to really start to effectively deal with them (you don't see many Assault mechs running around with Naval lasers no do you?).

So Titan legions are Generally out of Battletechs league
On the other hand Space marines and the Guard are in the range of Battletech to deal with, though vehicles like the Baneblade are going to be tough nuts to crack, not to mention some of them do carry the equivalent of B-tech capital weapons.

Comparatively a Space marine with his Bolter and Chainsword vs an Elemental with a small laser, Space Marine armor is probably a high end Light class battle armor equivalent. So if equal skills are assumed an Elemental could win fairly well. However I would rate the average space marine as a high end elite (2/3s or better) as after all IIRC most do have a fair number of decades of experience... A Bolter is roughly equivalent to a B-tech MG (a Bolter being a 19mm gun fired Gyrojet with a APHE round, where as many B-tech MGs are 20mm automatic cannons). On top of all this Space marines have many enhancements done to them, so in effect their closer to Manei Domini (or a Manei Domini is closer to them). In short I would say that a Star of Elementals (25) is probably roughly equal to 15 to 20 or so Space marines in armor given a Space marines advantage of...
Greater speed
More experience
Better enhancements
Better Melee weapons
Less need for sleep ...
Over a Elementals advantage of
Better armor (notionally as unlike B-tech armor WH40k armor dose not degrade over time if subjected to enough hits)
Better firepower ("MGs" vs Laser or Gauss based weapons (AP Gauss))

Vs IS battle armor I would rate them as being equivalent of 2 IS BA vs 1 Space marine (Baring heavier suits, though Space Marines do have heavier suits as well).

On the other Hand vs the Guard battletech will do fairly well.
Las Guns are equivalent to B-tech laser weapons though with better battery packs... However If we go with the idea that a lasgun is not significantly better than a Autogun in terms of power but better in terms of ammo supply (more shots from it's battery and no need to supply bullets any way), then it's possible that B-tech las guns are possibly far more powerful (which could go a long way to explaining the ammo per battery difference), as per Tactics of Duty a Laser Pistol has a yield of 100 kilo joules per shot (or 20g of TNT it mentions both when describing the weapons power). Though I feel that all in all both weapons are fairly equal. In terms of Body armor and electronics I would say that again a Generic B-tech infantrymen is roughly equal to his IG counter part. Vehicle wise it's a bit harder to compare, but AFAIK the Leman Russ has a 120mm cannon, which could make it roughly equivalent to a AC-2 or Medium Rifle in terms of power. Worse off is that the Tech descriptions make it a very slow tank by B-tech standards (like 2/3 slow), though some fluff dose make it to be a fair bit faster than that. Las Cannons are roughly medium lasers perhaps Clan versions if one wants to be generous. Autocannons are in the AC-2 to 5 range. Plasma guns are probably comparable, though at the lest B-tech ones are not as hazardous to ones health as the IGs are...

The largest problem with the Guard is that it's quite often depicted as a late WW1 or WW2ish era force (with a touch of Vietnam), with some forces being pre WW1, which would make them a bit slow and ponderous compared to the mobile B-tech forces (remember Mechcommander, that system is in cannon use in the B-tech universe, well at lest limited use (see the book Imminent crisis)), Battletech is a data networked force, though perhaps not to the same ideas as current real life data networking.

To the best of my knowledge a B-tech force in WH40 would probably play closer to the Tau or perhaps Eldar, fast and hard hitting but not one to get into a pitched fight. As after all IG forces can easily outnumber a B-tech force, an IG infantry company can easily be the size of a B-tech infantry battalion!
Aircraft wise their roughly comparable, though IIRC their space fighters are closer to a Small craft than what B-tech uses.
It's when you get to WH40ks High end tech that you start getting to overpower B-techs capability's to effectively respond.

[IraqiWalker]

Nebfer, on 04 June 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:

AWESOME response

I love everything about that post. I just have one thing to clarify. a 120mm cannon is not an indication of damage. For example, the Pontiac 100 AC 20 (mounted on the victors) is actually a 20mm cannon that fires 100 shells in 10 seconds, each dealing 0.20 damage. While the Chemjet AC 20 is a 185mm cannon that fires 4 shells each dealing 5 damage in 10 seconds.

Then we have to deal with the different shell types. The standard Leman Russ uses a very powerful APBCHESh shell, It's designed to wreck infantry, and armor alike. However, the Leman Russ Eradicator uses low yield nuclear shells (as shown by the Ignores Cover rule it gets). Then there's the Punisher which has two cannons that are basically Gatling cannons made of GAU 8 Avengers.

If we're being realistic, no one would send tanks out to the field, with only one type of ammunition, it makes them too binary. A Leman Russ in a BT setting would carry varying types of ammo. (Also, the thing weighs something along the lines of 80 tons, so being slow is okay, since it can fire colossal ordnance weapons on the move).

Everything else you mentioned is beautiful. It's almost perfectly spot on.

[Azeem447]

I really Loved both of your posts and now can see how and why my calculations sadly do not work. I certainly see how a 100 ton atlas would not stand a chance against a 1000 ton titan.

this kind of information certainly shines new light on warhammer for me. though I have played the table top and looked into the lore I could never get diffinitive answers as to the scale of anything. in some cases space marines are made out to be walking tanks, and then the very next page will have 3 space marines ghosted buy hydrolis---UH I mean genestealer. (hee hee sorry).

God warhammer sucks at giving you anything resembiling consistency. maybe that's one more reason why I still prefer battletech universe more.

Excelent posts to both Iraqiwalker and Nebfer. really enjoyed reading those.

[IraqiWalker]

Azeem447, on 04 June 2015 - 02:57 PM, said:

I really Loved both of your posts and now can see how and why my calculations sadly do not work. I certainly see how a 100 ton atlas would not stand a chance against a 1000 ton titan.

this kind of information certainly shines new light on warhammer for me. though I have played the table top and looked into the lore I could never get diffinitive answers as to the scale of anything. in some cases space marines are made out to be walking tanks, and then the very next page will have 3 space marines ghosted buy hydrolis---UH I mean genestealer. (hee hee sorry).

God warhammer sucks at giving you anything resembiling consistency. maybe that's one more reason why I still prefer battletech universe more.

Excelent posts to both Iraqiwalker and Nebfer. really enjoyed reading those.

I enjoyed yours too. I hope it didn't seem like we were attacking your posts.

The main problem with 40K is that we have all kinds of authors, and they aren't very consistent. Similar issues happen with BT (ghost mech, anyone?), but not to the extent of Matt Ward, or C.S. Goto (also known as "The Great Beast", and "C.S. Multilazor", respectively).

[Void Angel]

Mazzyplz, on 29 May 2015 - 05:15 PM, said:

an elemental would wreck a space marine.

Azeem447, on 29 May 2015 - 05:43 PM, said:

I certainly agree with you on all but one of your points. the basic comparison of a elemental vs. a space marine is, in my opinion, the spot on base line for why battletech's tech is in most ways superior.

DI3T3R, on 03 June 2015 - 04:26 AM, said:

While BT and WH40k have about equal firepower n' stuff, WH40k wins with sheer numbers.

...for real?

So, you guys are telling me that a genetically modified, literally superhuman warrior with centuries of combat experience, using technology which includes teleportation and force-field enhanced weapons - not to mention actual psychic powers - would "get wrecked..."

By some dude with controlled giantism using high explosive missiles and physical-leverage claws - and only a normal human lifetime of training and combat experience?

Sure, the Elemental is genetically engineered to be the ideal human warrior within his specialty; Space Marines are culled from the best their Chapter recruiting worlds have to offer and then genetically enhanced beyond human capability. We are talking about someone whose ribcage is bulletproof, and for whom the record for active combat without rest is 328 hours. True, the Elemental is trained from birth in a very demanding process which many do not pass; Space Marines are culled from the best potential, then put through extensive training, and then they get to survive in a light suit doing recon and skirmishing combat before ever even putting on the full armor - and Chapter veterans boast centuries of combat experience.

Of course, the Elemental has power armor - but so does the Space Marine, and his is partially composed of nigh-indestructible science fantasy materials. While the Elemental has machine guns, missiles, lasers, flamers and a mechanical-leverage claw for close combat, the Space Marine is armed with plasma cannons, warp teleporters, gravity weapons, fusion-powered flamethrowers, and the occasional freaking hyperspace grenade. To say nothing of the occasional force-field enhanced melee weapon that disrupts matter on contact. Heck, we haven't even mentioned the mind lightning and whatnot yet

Now, I love Battletech; I have a ton of sourcebooks, and not one single Warhammer figurine or codex, though I have played some of the 40K games. But any comparison between the Space Marines - or any of the insanely dangerous and powerful factions in 40K - is laughable. Any of those guys would go through the entire BattleTech universe like a hot wind filled with malice and laughter.

Edited by Void Angel, 04 June 2015 - 05:50 PM.

[Void Angel]

PS: Azeem, I totally realize that you're trying to do a mash-up, like playing different CCGs against each other - Iraqi, with his vastly superior knowledge of the game and its mechanics/backstory, is doing a good job of talking about that - my objection is directed primarily at the BT fanboys who think that a Space Marine would have any trouble whatsoever with an Elemental.

[IraqiWalker]

Void Angel, on 04 June 2015 - 06:13 PM, said:

PS: Azeem, I totally realize that you're trying to do a mash-up, like playing different CCGs against each other - Iraqi, with his vastly superior knowledge of the game and its mechanics/backstory, is doing a good job of talking about that - my objection is directed primarily at the BT fanboys who think that a Space Marine would have any trouble whatsoever with an Elemental.

In all fairness, the elemental can pose a challenge. To put it more accurately, the odds of which one winning are closer than 80% in favor of the SM.

A lot of people were trying to simplify things down, and just get the rough estimates of why things are off.

It's easier to go SMs have big friggin full auto bazooka guns, and armor like a heavy tank. If someone wants to go more in-depth then we can bring up all the implants. (My personal favorites are the Betcher's gland which is like a cobra's venom tube, it's under the tongue, and allows the space marines to spit acidic saliva. The other is the Omophagea which allows a Space Marine to learn the memories of a person or animal, by eating their brains -Yes, this is canon-).

Also, OP did state that he was using the TT rules, and numbers specifically, which don't translate well to lore, or BT.

[Azeem447]

Ah yes Void, good to see someone who plays devils advocate. yes I have admitted multiple times that I am bias on this matter. I had hoped to try to find a fun way to cross over the table top games while still being fair to both sides. to this I actually still stand by my original conversion methods, though I will have to make some modifications all the way around for warhammer.

just because lore wise the warhammer universe is way beyond over powered doesn't mean people should be dissuaded from trying to have fun with either or both universes.

I had hoped this post would be more about how we could balance to two universes to each other for a fun crossover fight but that will clearly not happen, since the lore for both are just incompatible.

Edited by Azeem447, 04 June 2015 - 06:53 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Azeem447, on 04 June 2015 - 06:53 PM, said:

Ah yes Void, good to see someone who plays devils advocate. yes I have admitted multiple times that I am bias on this matter. I had hoped to try to find a fun way to cross over the table top games while still being fair to both sides. to this I actually still stand by my original conversion methods, though I will have to make some modifications all the way around for warhammer.

just because lore wise the warhammer universe is way beyond over powered doesn't mean people should be dissuaded from trying to have fun with either or both universes.

I had hoped this post would be more about how we could balance to two universes to each other for a fun crossover fight but that will clearly not happen, since the lore for both are just incompatible.

I wouldn't go THAT far. Your methods had a flawed foundation, but you just need to modify them to do a conversion. It's just that you need to get ready for some frustration. I need to go do some laundry right now, but when I come back, I'll post some numbers from my attempt at crossing the two systems over. It works, it's just not easy, since you'll end up with a handful of 40K minis versus an entire army of BT minis, because the BVs are that skewed.

[Nebfer]

IraqiWalker, on 04 June 2015 - 01:07 PM, said:

I love everything about that post. I just have one thing to clarify. a 120mm cannon is not an indication of damage. For example, the Pontiac 100 AC 20 (mounted on the victors) is actually a 20mm cannon that fires 100 shells in 10 seconds, each dealing 0.20 damage. While the Chemjet AC 20 is a 185mm cannon that fires 4 shells each dealing 5 damage in 10 seconds.

Then we have to deal with the different shell types. The standard Leman Russ uses a very powerful APBCHESh shell, It's designed to wreck infantry, and armor alike. However, the Leman Russ Eradicator uses low yield nuclear shells (as shown by the Ignores Cover rule it gets). Then there's the Punisher which has two cannons that are basically Gatling cannons made of GAU 8 Avengers.

If we're being realistic, no one would send tanks out to the field, with only one type of ammunition, it makes them too binary. A Leman Russ in a BT setting would carry varying types of ammo. (Also, the thing weighs something along the lines of 80 tons, so being slow is okay, since it can fire colossal ordnance weapons on the move).

Everything else you mentioned is beautiful. It's almost perfectly spot on.

Actually per Heir to the Dragon the Pontiac 100 is a 100mm based gun, With about 70 rounds per ton given by the Warriors series as Justin Allard uses a Pontiac 100 on Yen-lo-Wang, and in the Warriors series when hes on Solaris he has to dump a full load of ammo (3 tons of it -15 shots) at one point, and some 200 rounds are said to spill out of it's chutes.

But you are right a direct comparison of calibers will only yield a rough comparison of capability's, as the shell type could be different, or the velocity of one might be notably higher than the other, and so on. That said an AC-20 is most commonly 120mm in the fluff, though their are notable exceptions like the 150mm on the Hetzer or the 185mm on the Demolisher (though interestingly in Threads of Ambition the Hetzers gun is stated to be 120mm... -I tend to view the TRO to be more accurate, though im not to fond of the stated Rate of fire it gives (a 150mm 20kg cartridge is a bit light)). And what I was going off of was that at 20kg per cartridge (acceptable for a 120mm -as that is roughly how heavy current tank rounds rounds are) a 120mm based AC-20 will fire 10 rounds in a single burst (which is in under 10 seconds, likely no more than 2 seconds, as the combat segment of a turn dose not last the entire 10 seconds -note per the rules your attacks are based on where the units end up, not where they start from). Though how much Dmg a Russ's gun will do is debatable and in part is how one interprets WH40ks capability's, and is partly why I gave bit of a range. 1 to 3 dmg is in all likeliness a fairly good range for a single 120mm round (my self tend to view modern 120mm ammo as doing about 1 point of dmg). Though I have seen some attribute a modern 120mm round as doing 6 dmg to B-tech armor, so their is that.

Well as such the weapon deals 20 damage so each round deals 2 points of damage. Incidentally at this weight of ammo and caliber will work with the rest of the auto cannon series, an AC-10 will only need 5 rounds which works with it's 100kg shot mass, an AC-2 only needs 1 round to do it's stated damage and 20 kg works with the 22kg shot mass... AC-5s are the exception, however it's also the only other AC that is canonically stated to have a model to be 120mm caliber, the Marauders AC-5 is a 120mm based auto cannon 5 that fires IIRC 2 or 3 rounds per burst, which if we average out the damage over 2 shots would work out to 5 per turn as would the mass of the two shots (one shot doing "4" the other "6"), so even that works out well enough. Though in general damage for auto cannons is largely based on how much "mass" one can throw down range in a given time frame, which results in the amount of damage to the target.

In General from the fluff AC-2s range from 20mm to 50mm (30mm being typical), AC-5s are the most varied ranging from 40mm to 120mm (50 and 80mm being the most common), AC-10s being 75 to 100mm (the IS seems to like 80mm the Clans 75mm), with AC-20s being 100 to 200mm, with 120mm being the most common for this class. As for Machine guns 20mm is the most common caliber, 12.7 or 13mm (~50 cal) is also used from time to time as well, their is even a reference to a 30mm based MG in the Scorpions TRO entry (which also uses a 20mm based MG). Battle Armor seem to use a 12.7mm based rotary MG for their MG based configs (or at lest Elementals do). They fire a High velocity High Explosive Armor Piercing round that per the novels also has a DU component (which is why I think their loosely related to WW2 era APCR rounds, of which modern versions also use a HE component, like the Mk 211 Raufoss)

One thing that we do know about B-tech armor (out side of it's seemingly inconsistent magical nature), is that penetrative shots generally do not work very well, the chance of a round penetrating a battlemechs armor is fairly small (if I got it right roughly 1 in 260 (rolling a 2 and then a 8+), per regular rules at lest), and this is with weapons that will turn modern MBTs to scrap metal with a single hit (A Gauss Rifle fires a 125kg slug at hypersonic velocity, or at lest 1,720m/s, a Ke of over 180 megajoules (the 120mm round the Abrams fires is only 8.5 Megajoules)). And then theirs AP ammo which also has a relatively low chance of actually penetrating the armor... Though B-tech armor it seems ablates fairly easily, well if it can not negate an attack it ablates.

In any event, Battletech can hold it's own vs most Wh40 forces, it's only real downsides to my knowledge (opinions of course will very), is that WH40k High end units can get really nasty for B-tech ground units to deal with, as their Titans are generally for the lack of a better term Walking pocket Warships, and they have super heavy tanks that can carry weapons that can compete with them (well take them on) IIRC theirs fluff on the Shadowsword that indicates that it fires a laser with a yield of 1 kiloton (per second), and that titans can also mount these weapons, this is roughly on par with Naval lasers.

In space battletech is almost completely out classed, their ships are larger and carry more and bigger guns, not to mention have energy shields which B-tech dose not have, to say little of their FTL advantages (though in some ways B-techs is better) and over all numbers advantages.

On the ground battletech runs into the problem of numbers, For battletech many infantry battalions (with their 252 combat infantry, and not including an unknown number of suport personnel) are roughly the size of a IG infantry company, and many IG Regiments have 10 to 30 such company's, along with Tanks and artillery, and In WH40k I believe they typically send more than one Regiment to deal with problems. So for battletech the proper B-tech equivalent of a IG regiment is closer to a Brigade (for the Fed Suns and Lyrans thats 4 to 8 infantry regiments and perhaps a tank regiment or two).

Vs Space marines a AFFS Battle armor Regiment is comprised of some 1,024 Troopers which is roughly how many Spacemarines a Chapter has (which is 1,000 marines, though this may not include the ones used as vehicle crews so it's possible that their a few more than that...), however despite some advantages in terms of armor and firepower I doubt the regular trooper suits will stack up on a one to one basis, as I mentioned eariler it's likely that they will need a two to one ratio, so two IS BA Regiments to deal with a Full Marine chapter. Thankfully a full space marine chapter is uncommonly seen in the field. Heavier suits like the Kopis which pack twin rough analogs of Lascannons, on good armor will even out the score a bit, on the flip side Terminators are going to be murder, packing a bit more punch than regular Marine, but with far heavier armor and are extreamly skilled (likely with a gunnery of 1 in B-tech terms or better) as these guys I believe have been around for a few century's

[IraqiWalker]

Some of the BV numbers I could salvage:

Base Land Speeder (BV 560) (Treat the Missile launchers as MRM10s. The Heavy Bolter as as RAC 10 (with almost no chance to jam), the Multi melta is where it gets tricky. Heavy flamer is simple. Mech flamer, just with beefed stats). It's hover, and moves at 150 Kph, with the ability to forego firing weapons, to turbo boost (basically supercharge, without any downsides) I gave it the armor value of a 20 ton Heavy Hover APC, but it's at more than triple the cost (188 vs 560+).

{Bear in mind, I still nerfed the hell out of this thing at the time. If I were to do this again, especially with the new edition of 40K, the numbers will be changed}

Land Raider (BV 6300 & up). It's 6300 BV for the basic Phobos patter. That comes with 2 Twin-Linked Lascannons, each is basically a Naval Laser 55 that re-rolls misses. The Heavy Bolter is a RAC 10 (twin linked, so it re-rolls missed shots). It's armor is a real problem, I put it at only 400 armor per facing. From every angle, I was still nerfing it even with that. To put this into perspective, you can field almost two Ares colossal mechs for that one Land Raider. I still think the BV should have been increased on the Land Raider some more. The fact that it's only three weapons is what helps keep it's BV from being pumped to the extreme.

Guardsmen were regiment dependant. For example, Cadians were treated as regular infantry, except their Lasguns were Medium Lasers, their flak armor was just above average infantry armor. Carapace was stronger.

While Elysians were jump infantry, who worked very similarly to BT jump infantry. Except their lasguns were MLs.

The main problem is that the low tech stuff can offer an interesting and possibly fair fight with BT in 1:1 terms. The high end stuff is where it gets stupid.

The Lascannon is a Strength 10 AP 2 weapon. For comparison, an Orbital bombardment laser (yields in the really high mega to giga tons) is a Strength 10 AP 1 weapon. That Lascannon is so powerful it can one shot 100 ton tanks, and battlemechs.

It's why I slapped the land Raider in there. It's a massive vehicle, and very, very, very heavy.

[Azeem447]

I really like seeing how you made your conversions Iraqiwalker and am very greatfull to you for sharing them.

even so im afraid that I most contest that actually you are giving the 40k universe more credit than it deserves.

Not to sound like im flogging a dead horse but I had another pass at warhammer table top, lore and video games. one thing that stuck out like a sore thumb is scale. the scale in all video and table top games is almost the exact same. my previous mesurments for range on warhammer are actually spot on. even though warhammer weapons might be more powerfull, (wich im still not convinced there as powerfull as some claim), there range is PAINFULLY short on every weapon you can possibly think of, save for artillery and some Tau.

also I found a almost perfect comparison for the titans, battletech dropships. these drops ships can have about the same tonnage and there for can have around the same armor. there is just one problem now, in battletech mechs are destroying drop ships like candy so often that some factions started dropping mechs for orbit or landing drop ships well out of range. reasons?
they made to big and to easy of a target, and all units practically focused their fire on the dropships first to remove the threat.

[IraqiWalker]

Azeem447, on 05 June 2015 - 03:36 PM, said:

I really like seeing how you made your conversions Iraqiwalker and am very greatfull to you for sharing them.

even so im afraid that I most contest that actually you are giving the 40k universe more credit than it deserves.

Not to sound like im flogging a dead horse but I had another pass at warhammer table top, lore and video games. one thing that stuck out like a sore thumb is scale. the scale in all video and table top games is almost the exact same. my previous mesurments for range on warhammer are actually spot on. even though warhammer weapons might be more powerfull, (wich im still not convinced there as powerfull as some claim), there range is PAINFULLY short on every weapon you can possibly think of, save for artillery and some Tau.

also I found a almost perfect comparison for the titans, battletech dropships. these drops ships can have about the same tonnage and there for can have around the same armor. there is just one problem now, in battletech mechs are destroying drop ships like candy so often that some factions started dropping mechs for orbit or landing drop ships well out of range. reasons?
they made to big and to easy of a target, and all units practically focused their fire on the dropships first to remove the threat.

Scale is off, absolutely. I've mentioned it before. Because the models aren't to scale. The weapon ranges aren't to scale, and the maps have no real scale. Now you're beginning to see the real problems with the conversion.

The dropships could work, but they are still too fragile compared to the titans. Then of course, there's the problem with void shields, and after that, there is the problem of structure points, (Structure points don't translate to internal health. Think of them like a multiplier for the armor amount.)

In my attempted conversion, what I tried to do, was take the functionality of the units, and how they work, and how their weapons work, and swap them into BT equivalents.

Remember the Basilisk I mentioned in a previous post? It's ludicrous range is horribly misrepresented on the table. It's only given a 270 inch range. When you scale the basilisk to it's "real" proportions, that 270 inch range turns out to be pathetic. Just a few kilometers at best. While in it's readouts, it's supposed to have a range in the 100s of kilometers.

Another problem is that the statline for damage goes up to 10 only. Which leads to some hilarious mixups. For example, Darnath Lysander is one of the best Space Marines out there. He hits with his Thunder hammer at Strength 10 AP 1 (or 2). That is literally the highest damage possible (other than Destroyer), and it is the exact same stat line as an orbital bombardment beam (power level is in the upper Mega Tons, and Giga tons. Oh, and a single destroyer will have entire batteries of these things, on rapid fire). So how on earth does a hit from a thunder hammer be equivalent in destructive force to a beam that literally burns continents?

So using the Strength and AP values, and trying to convert them into the BT system which has no real armor, or invuln save like 40K does, proved very frustrating for me.

The other problem is translating the materials. Titans are made from literally the toughest materials in the 40K system. There is no way for me to represent them in BT without multiplying insane amounts of armor (upwards of 2K per section on a Warlord). Those things are so massive, and tough that when they are destroyed, they aren't really destroyed.

Also, now with more rules being added, and better detail, we've got things like the Thunderstrike Gauntlet, which can wreck almost anything in one hit, and on top of it, if it gets a kill, it literally tosses whatever you killed with it, at something else. That means the Knight Gallant, or Warden can pick up ANYTHING, and toss it at full strength at another object. Now if the Knight is 100 tons (they're not, they're around 50 -75), it can barely pick up a 10 ton object in BT. Yet, it's supposed to have the ability to pick up things that weigh as much as it does, if not more, and toss them. This is beyond Triple Strength Myomer.

Shields are a problem, stats are a problem (How do you represent weapons with the Destroyer strength? That's instant death on a wound), and scale is a problem (in all fairness, if they used the proper ranges, then we'd need tables the size of the empire space building just to have a small game, because every bolter reaches up to 1200 inches, and every basilisk reaches up to Nebraska -Doesn't matter where you are on the planet, your Basilisk will hit Nebraska).

40K had to nerf all of it's stuff for the tabletop game, in order to make it work. Also, don't try and scale things based on the model itself, because the models themselves aren't to scale right.

(One of their hugest mess ups when introducing the titan legions game was that the titans were all mostly 1/350th the scale, but the Emperator was 1/700th, while using the ranges designed for 1/350th scale models. By the way, some people found it easier to dress up as the Emperator, and stand on the table than get a model for it. It was still that huge -up to 100 meters tall, some even taller-)

As for the weapons destructive power: Trust me on this, based on their readouts, we are still underplaying their power. That Lascannon as a Naval Laser 55 was still underwhelming compared to how it's supposed to work. The problem isn't even in the weapon being there. It's in how portable it is. I scaled down how the weapons work based on the unit carrying them.

So the Lascannon carried by Guardsmen was still an ER LL that deals 15 damage. My problem here is that a Guardsman heavyweapons squad can slap 3+ of those bad boys, per squad. 45 damage, per turn, at a stupid long range, for an infantry unit is too powerful for BT.

This is of course, before we even get into the Psychic powers, warp based weapons, and other shenanigans like that

(also, never try to do space combat. A tiny 40K void bomber is the size of an emperator titan. Those bombers are fielded in large numbers, and every ship packs several dozens of them, just to give you an example of how ludicrous the scale of space combat is. The Leviathan class warships from BT would barely qualify for gunboats in 40K)

The biggest problem still remains that BT tries to have some semblance of realism, while 40K can just say "Space technology magic" and not address how an emperator titan can stand that tall, while weighing that much, without breaking the laws of physics, or collapsing on itself.

[Nebfer]

Void Angel, on 04 June 2015 - 05:49 PM, said:

...for real? So, you guys are telling me that a genetically modified, literally superhuman warrior with centuries of combat experience, using technology which includes teleportation and force-field enhanced weapons - not to mention actual psychic powers - would "get wrecked..." By some dude with controlled giantism using high explosive missiles and physical-leverage claws - and only a normal human lifetime of training and combat experience? Sure, the Elemental is genetically engineered to be the ideal human warrior within his specialty; Space Marines are culled from the best their Chapter recruiting worlds have to offer and then genetically enhanced beyond human capability. We are talking about someone whose ribcage is bulletproof, and for whom the record for active combat without rest is 328 hours. True, the Elemental is trained from birth in a very demanding process which many do not pass; Space Marines are culled from the best potential, then put through extensive training, and then they get to survive in a light suit doing recon and skirmishing combat before ever even putting on the full armor - and Chapter veterans boast centuries of combat experience. Of course, the Elemental has power armor - but so does the Space Marine, and his is partially composed of nigh-indestructible science fantasy materials. While the Elemental has machine guns, missiles, lasers, flamers and a mechanical-leverage claw for close combat, the Space Marine is armed with plasma cannons, warp teleporters, gravity weapons, fusion-powered flamethrowers, and the occasional freaking hyperspace grenade. To say nothing of the occasional force-field enhanced melee weapon that disrupts matter on contact. Heck, we haven't even mentioned the mind lightning and whatnot yet Now, I love Battletech; I have a ton of sourcebooks, and not one single Warhammer figurine or codex, though I have played some of the 40K games. But any comparison between the Space Marines - or any of the insanely dangerous and powerful factions in 40K - is laughable. Any of those guys would go through the entire BattleTech universe like a hot wind filled with malice and laughter.

Your typical Space marine dose not have access to most of thoughs kinds of weapons on a regular basis.
Typical space marine armaments are not to far removed to what the Guard uses, their primary weapon is a Bolter, which is a 19mm gun fired Gyrojet, firing a APHE round. By most accounts their roughly in the range of small grenade launchers (link is a 25mm GL).
Most space marines are not psykers either, their combat speeds is roughly 30-50kph and centuries of experience is not exactly meaningful, I mean a guy with 30 years experience at something dose not make him 10 times as knowledgeable over some guy who has just 3.
Space marine armor is not impervious, regular Las guns are known to take down space marines, and typical support weapons for the guard are just as capable of dealing with a Marine (you know las cannons, hvy bolters and rocket launchers). Nor are they impervious to tank guns. Heck theirs even an account of a space marine being killed by a medieval age army in his armor, or the time Marines getting killed by spear wielding Orks... So no Space marines are not unkillable, this is notable when you note that elementals can be packing small las cannons, multi las, or small automatic Gauss Rifles.

Pit them in a fight unarmored and in melee and the Marine will win quite likely 99 out of 100 times or better, with range combat that becomes a bit more even and in armor a bit more even still. Even with my value of pitting 15 marines to 25 elemental as roughly even, only accounts ranged weapons add in melee and one could say 2 to 1....

On a tangent, on the Novel Gunheads, Leman Russ tank AP Rounds (which is roughly 120mm) where getting lodged in a meter thick plate of Iron, as in their not penetrating, and Iron is Generally not as good as armor as Steel is, Armor steel would probably be half as thick, and as their getting stuck part way thru, puts a fairly big limitation on their AP performance (in short your looking at roughly late ww2 era tank guns (200-300mm of RHA penetration ability's), which incidentally is roughly what WH40k is often portrayed like at times) which also works with some publications that mention Guard and Marine tanks having armor values in the 300mm range of conventional steels...

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

A friend and I did some thought experimenting with this a while back. Here were some conclusions:

1 - Battletech wins on armor tech. Extremely tough, super compact armor that ablates slightly when hit even with extreme levels of energy, that can be slapped on easily to repair, replace, or reinforce your stuff. The Imperium has adamantium plating and such, but it tends to behave pretty much like WWII tank armor, which was just steel plating. Adamantium is of course wildly stronger than steel, but it's super heavy and bulky comparatively, and just generally inferior mechanically.

2 - Weapons tech is, on the surface, pretty even. You have to make a lot of assumptions about battletech weapon performance, since the TT listed ranges are absurdly short, but then the 40k TT ranges are also extremely short, so that might be a wash. However, 40k has a lock on the high-end, planet killing stuff. Titan-grade weapons, like most things in 40k, are pretty much turned up to 11, while battletech tends to be a bit more reasonable, which leaves it under-gunned at the high end of things. That said, low-end, battletech probably wins. I'd take an Elemental suit against a Space Marine in Power Armor with a Bolter any day, though if you give him a heavy weapon of some kind he'd probably beat the Elemental.

Of course, it's all a moot point when you consider Melta Torpedos, Virus Bombs, and Vortex weapons.

3 - Manpower. 40k wins. This is not even a question. The Inner Sphere is maybe equivalent to a subsector of the Imperium, maybe. Take all of the infantry and tank forces of the Inner Sphere and the Guard would roll them over without noticing. As for Elementals v Space Marines, sans armor the Space Marine wins every time, though if you throw in their respective Power Armor I'd go with the Elementals. TDA and Dreadnaughts change the equation pretty radically, though, and special/heavy weapons and orbital support pretty much seal the deal in favor of 40k.

4 - Space. Warships are nothing compared to the fleet of the Imperium of Man. Their fighters could probably do some work, and maybe the space-combat dropship variants, but other than that the Imperium pretty much owns space.

5 - Mechs. Smaller Titans are probably able to give a lance of mechs a run for their money, mostly by virtue of over-the-top weaponry and void shields (most especially the void shields). Larger Titans are pretty much dominant, with the Imperators being, once again, turned up to 11 and essentially untouchable by any reasonable force of mechs.

6 - Psykers. 40k wins.

The verdict? 40k wins, pretty dominantly. Battletech would do some damage, but the numbers just don't work, even once the Great Houses break out their atomics. The Imperium will inevitably win, and ultimately the war will be little more than a side note in the annals of whatever Crusade happens to be in the vicinity.

[IraqiWalker]

Nebfer, on 05 June 2015 - 07:15 PM, said:

Your typical Space marine dose not have access to most of thoughs kinds of weapons on a regular basis.
Typical space marine armaments are not to far removed to what the Guard uses, their primary weapon is a Bolter, which is a 19mm gun fired Gyrojet, firing a APHE round. By most accounts their roughly in the range of small grenade launchers (link is a 25mm GL).
Most space marines are not psykers either, their combat speeds is roughly 30-50kph and centuries of experience is not exactly meaningful, I mean a guy with 30 years experience at something dose not make him 10 times as knowledgeable over some guy who has just 3.
Space marine armor is not impervious, regular Las guns are known to take down space marines, and typical support weapons for the guard are just as capable of dealing with a Marine (you know las cannons, hvy bolters and rocket launchers). Nor are they impervious to tank guns. Heck theirs even an account of a space marine being killed by a medieval age army in his armor, or the time Marines getting killed by spear wielding Orks... So no Space marines are not unkillable, this is notable when you note that elementals can be packing small las cannons, multi las, or small automatic Gauss Rifles.

Pit them in a fight unarmored and in melee and the Marine will win quite likely 99 out of 100 times or better, with range combat that becomes a bit more even and in armor a bit more even still. Even with my value of pitting 15 marines to 25 elemental as roughly even, only accounts ranged weapons add in melee and one could say 2 to 1....

On a tangent, on the Novel Gunheads, Leman Russ tank AP Rounds (which is roughly 120mm) where getting lodged in a meter thick plate of Iron, as in their not penetrating, and Iron is Generally not as good as armor as Steel is, Armor steel would probably be half as thick, and as their getting stuck part way thru, puts a fairly big limitation on their AP performance (in short your looking at roughly late ww2 era tank guns (200-300mm of RHA penetration ability's), which incidentally is roughly what WH40k is often portrayed like at times) which also works with some publications that mention Guard and Marine tanks having armor values in the 300mm range of conventional steels...

Actually the Bolter is more inline with an RPG 7, than a grenade launcher. The "Bolts" have armor piercing tips, and once inside the detonator will then activate, and basically blow the target up from the inside.

Also, bad writing is not a good measure of effectiveness. Medieval weaponry can't pierce adamantium, or ceramite. Let alone the hardened bones of a space marine.

We've also had authors who gave space marines multilasers, even though that is almost impossible, since no space marines use those. We also have an author who had Elder steal a guard chimera because it was more armored than their vehicles (it's not, it's also tracked while theirs are hover vehicles). Then proceed to hang along it's sides, therefor not using it's "protection". Another incident had Eldar Firedragons struggle to pierce the armor on a chimera, even though literally anything in the game suffers critical existence failure when the fire dragons open up. Not even Land Raiders can stand up to a squad of fire dragons.

So a Leman Russ shell punching through a meter of Iron without shattering it, or detonating definitely sounds like an example up there with those. Same with "medival weaponry". Orks are different because their weapons are magic. In the derpiest way possible.

Their Choppas are made of steel, and iron. If used by anyone that isn't an ork, they would break on a Space Marine's armor literally without putting a scratch on it. But with an Ork, they can cut through almost anything.

Steve Parker is a great author, some of his other 40K stories are made of pure win, and gold, however, they are usually fraught with illogical errors. Like in Rynn's World. It's probably his best story, and is considered one of the best in 40K canon, but it still has mistakes.

The other problem is that Elementals will be packing BT weapons, which are not as effective. The ML would work, since that's the equivalent of a lasgun. Shorter ranged though. However, the Gauss would still be a real threat. This is of course so long as it doesn't get into melee. In melee the SM as you mentioned will win 99 out of a 100 times. They are all packing Chainswords at least, and those things will crave through elemental armor quite effectively. Space Marine sergeants are almost always packing power weapons, which just go "armor, lol wut?"

Yes, a fight between an elemental, and a space marine is close, especially at range, but it's still in favor of the marines.

Also, one thing you did forget is the reaction, and movement speed. Space marines literally have split second reaction speeds. As in, within a quarter of a second they can track a target, and fire accurately . Plus, unlike regular power armor users, SMs have the Black Carapace, which integrates them into the armor in such a way that it feels almost weightless (as in, they don't have to fight it's weight, and bulk, like the Sisters of Battle do), and operates at their speeds.

Also, once chemical warfare kicks in, the Space Marines' advantage kicks into high gear, unconventional terrain is another one where the Space marines can beat most other types of infantry simply by being biologically versatile to an extreme degree. Their implants are a huge advantage.

Now you touched on something else with experience. The centuries of combat actually increase the effectiveness of the warrior exponentially, so the 30 year difference is even more massive than you think. That means the space marine has fought on every battlefield imaginable, and movement and combat in those fields works like second nature to him. While the Elemental would be at a disadvantage right off the bat if he's on a battlefield he hasn't fought on before.

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 05 June 2015 - 07:47 PM, said:

The verdict? 40k wins, pretty dominantly. Battletech would do some damage, but the numbers just don't work, even once the Great Houses break out their atomics. The Imperium will inevitably win, and ultimately the war will be little more than a side note in the annals of whatever Crusade happens to be in the vicinity.

That actually happened in Canon (it was Star Trek though). The Interex were pretty boss. Horus wiped them out in one go, and they weren't more than a speed bump for his legion.

[Void Angel]

Nebfer, on 05 June 2015 - 07:15 PM, said:

centuries of experience is not exactly meaningful, I mean a guy with 30 years experience at something dose not make him 10 times as knowledgeable over some guy who has just 3.

I cannot believe that made sense to you. Engaging in heavy combat (and that's why you call the Space Marines) is not like going to high school, or being an electrician. Combat experience is about being able to kill and survive very many other people trying to kill you - use words like "brutal," "Darwinian," and "selection." For someone to survive centuries of the kind of combat you see in 40K requires nothing short of amazing skill and talent - we're talking warfare in which scorched earth tactics are applied at the level of planetary bodies in space.

You also spend most of your quote correcting me for saying things I haven't said, like Space Marine power armor being impervious, or Space Marines being unkillable - while citing Ork spears as an ordinary weapon; they're ORKS, their weapons are psychically-charged and work pretty much as well as the Ork thinks it will.

While not every individual Space Marine has access to the advanced gear I mentioned, a battle group of them will. The Space Marines are a combined-arms force (more so than the Clans,) but since we're talking about the specific infantry v. infantry fight - it would be more appropriate to apply the Assault Marine versus the Elementals. In Bolt pistols are Elemental-scale weapons, requiring superhuman strength enhanced by power armor to use, and the chainswords and occasonal power weapons used by your typical Assault Squad would go through an Elemental pretty quickly once you consider the massive disparity in skill, experience, and even biological capabilities. Even if you insist on comparing against the 60% of a standard Space Marine company, the basic Space Marine power armor is at least the equal of Clan Elemental armor - but every squad has a sergeant who routinely sports plasma and power weaponry. In both cases, veterans of the Chapter wield even more powerful wargear.

If we're going to compare them as a total force, then you have to include not only all of the amazing firepower of the full Chapters of the Space Marines themselves, but the supporting forces of the Imperial Guard, and possibly such forces as the Sisters of Battle and the Inquisition - along with the agents of the Officio Assassinorum. In any combination that does not involve pitting a tiny force of Space Marines against a vastly outnumbering Clan assault, the Imperium wins hands-down. It's not even a contest.

Edited by Void Angel, 05 June 2015 - 09:40 PM.