384 replies to this topic

[Satan n stuff]

Savage Wolf, on 30 May 2015 - 01:40 AM, said:

So... how long shall we wait until you explain the point then? Or shall we just ignore this utterly irrelevant and empty comment that adds nothing to the discussion other than you feeling superior for no good reason?

Honestly if either he or you haven't figured it out by now there's no point in my explaining it. Just reread Bishop's posts until you get it.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Aresye Kerensky, on 30 May 2015 - 12:37 AM, said:

Skill exists.

It's why players like TwinkieOverlord, Heimdelight, and JagerXII manage to outperform everybody else.

Players like them were the top when dual gauss K2s were the meta, they were the top when PPCs/AC5s were the meta, and they are STILL at the top now that lasers are the meta.

If all these metas are always "no-skill," and, "easy to do," then why are the same players always at the top? Why do they always win matches? Why do they always do absurd damage and kills?

After the most recent nerf patch, guess who the top players are now? SAME ONES!

People need to seriously stop complaining. These players are just flat out better than you, and even if you devolved the game all the way down to nothing but flamers, they would STILL kick your butts. All you end up doing is making the game more frustrating for everybody else.

This reminds me of when all the loretards would call out the top players during the days of the CTF-3D, STK-3F, and HGN-732 and how the metahumpers couldn't play a real man's mech and relied on their crutch mechs. A few of the DV8 guys started to take them up on their offers to use stock mechs in best of 5 duals, where they'd go in each weight class and the fifth would be pilot's preference.

I think it was PEEFsmash that started to post up the videos of how badly he was beating some of these guys. One of the loudest "YOU AIN'T A REAL MAN BECAUSE YOU DON'T PILOT STOCK MECHS" guys got his ass beaten so badly by PEEF, that in the light mech, heavy mech, and final round he didn't even land a single shot on PEEF.

In fact, the DV8 guys never lost a single round to the guys calling them out.

Satan n stuff, on 30 May 2015 - 01:33 AM, said:

^Completely missed the point.

No he didn't.

Bish's premise was that if LRMs being a "drag small circle into box and hold there until big circle turns red then pull trigger for homing missiles" is no skill, then what are "hitscan, damage over time lasers that are dragged over an enemy mech?"

Any knucklehead can put the little circle in the box until the big circle turns red then pull the trigger and do damage just like any knucklehead can puke rainbows and drag them across the enemy and do damage.

The difference is that the average player is spreading the damage all over the mech and into the air with lasers, same as with LRMs. While high skill players are melting holes through the same spot.

Edited by Lord Scarlett Johan, 30 May 2015 - 01:49 AM.

[bad arcade kitty]

Ragtag soldier, on 29 May 2015 - 06:13 PM, said:

lasers are the weapon of choice for not aiming, since you just need to hit the alpha button when the enemy is more or less in the middle of the screen. you could teach a dog to play the game with lasers.

yet another proof i'm not a dog

[KuroNyra]

Savage Wolf, on 30 May 2015 - 01:40 AM, said:

So... how long shall we wait until you explain the point then? Or shall we just ignore this utterly irrelevant and empty comment that adds nothing to the discussion other than you feeling superior for no good reason?

Should I grab some popcorn?

No? Because I sense a flame wars coming up.

[Savage Wolf]

Satan n stuff, on 30 May 2015 - 01:47 AM, said:

Honestly if either he or you haven't figured it out by now there's no point in my explaining it. Just reread Bishop's posts until you get it.

So you don't have a point for us to miss and don't want to acknowledge that he might have a point. Got it! Your irrelevant input is hereby ignored.

[Thunder Child]

He did kind of miss the point. Players with real skill are still gonna kill all teh tingz, as he said. That was never up for debate. Or at least, that wasn't the debate set forth in the OP.

The point of the debate was, if Lurms are just a point and click adventure, where the goal is to spray damage at the enemy, then what is the average (note, average, not top tier) laservomit player, if not the very same thing. The only real difference between the two (in average tier) is that Lurms can still miss after a lock due to a number of circumstances. Laservomit will hit, provided the shooter can get the crosshair on the target.

This does not imply that Laservomit is "more skillful", just because it is easier to land damage. It just means laservomit is easier to land damage in LoS.

Edited by Thunder Child, 30 May 2015 - 01:55 AM.

[Savage Wolf]

KuroNyra, on 30 May 2015 - 01:54 AM, said:

Should I grab some popcorn?

No? Because I sense a flame wars coming up.

I already made mine. But I don't mind sharing a good show.
I love seeing people who has no arguments try to justify why we should care.

[bad arcade kitty]

imo the indirect fire is their main advantage, lurms can help you even when the boat doesn't directly see your enemy, that's why it's important to lock for them, sometimes it can save your life

[C E Dwyer]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 May 2015 - 04:02 PM, said:

Just for debate.

I hear all the time, that because of Lock On, LRMs are a no skill weapon.

I submit, because of hitscan, and accuracy percentage being shown as a "hit" even if the laser only brushed the target for a tick, is just as no skill, or more.

The sheer amount of people out there swinging their no skill Large Lasers around the map like Lightsabers is pathetic. Yes, they hit. A little bit, and usually spread all over the enemy mech. A blind, deaf chimpanzee could hit with lasers in MWO. What skill does that take?

Ah, but wait!

"To focus damage on one component takes mad skill" says the Tryhard.

And I agree. For those few who are able to do that, at anything but point blank range.

And I submit, to paint all LRM Users as new skill newbs, is just as inaccurate and disingenuous.

There is no single weapon with as many counters, and weaknesses, as LRMs.

Counters:
-Cover.
-AMS.
-Radar Derp Module.
-ECM.

Weaknesses:
-180 meter Minimum Range. Shorter maximum range than almost any other "long range" weapon.
-Inefficient damage spread, like an LB-X.
-Requires TAG, BAP and Artemis (and preferably a teammate with NARC and UAVs)to achieve maximum potential, removing crits, and hardpoints and tonnage, when already needing huge amount of ammo to justify in the first place.
-160 m/s projectile speed. Not only do acquiring locks, even with TAG take quite a while, exposed to PP-FLD return fire, but maintaining the lock is required, and at max range it requires that lock to be held fo 6.8 seconds, or the shot is wasted. Nearly 7 seconds for the enemy unit to brush off the lock. Even at shorter range, it take near 3 seconds AFTER acquiring a lock, to bring ordinance on target.

Fact is, for LRMs to be optimal, requires the LRM Mech to be 300.500 meters away, requiring over 2-3 seconds of exposure from time of seeing the target, to acquiring lock (IF the enemy isn't shielded by ecm) and Missiles arriving on target. And that only works if the enemy can't break LoS (particularly with Target Derp) or grab cover.

I submit, for arguments sake, that in all but Comp Tiers (LRMs are simply too slow and clumsy to be useful against mass lazer/gauss zerg rushes) to EFFICIENTLY and EFFECTIVELY use LRMs requires as much, if not more skill, as our Lazor Overlords.

Simple truth is, 90% of LaserSpammers are just as bad as 90% of LRMboats.


Argue away.

Greatest troll post eva
I was pissed at the way my teams are folding, so come here to rant, this made me almost laugh out loud.
I salute you o7

[Bluttrunken]

I don't know a good LRM boat either needs great support or good battlefield awareness to be effective. People sitting back and just "leeching" the locks of their teammates won't be effective unless under lucky circumstances. A good laserboat needs good battlefield awareness and aiming to be effective. People sitting back and spraying their lasers without looking on the first red they see won't be effective unless under lucky circumstances.

I see the no skill label more applicable to laserboats, tho, because it's much easier to hit decent damage by facerolling.

But still: What a nonsensical debate. Both weapon systems are in a good place.

Edited by k05h3lk1n, 30 May 2015 - 02:06 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 May 2015 - 08:05 PM, said:

shhhhh! Stop pulling out facts and logic on people! It's unfair and OP! Why, aiming LRMs is so easy I'm sure they have to be the highest accuracy rate on everyone stats....right?


RIGHT?

LRM's are bad for the same reason that LB's clan AC'5 are bad in the eyes off the L33T they spread damage if you don't use them properly.

Though my Maddog-c with its twin uac10's might take offense, take its 4/1 kd 419 average damage, and sulk in the corner, if I tell it

[Savage Wolf]

The fact that you are all debating skill is ridiculous. And by what I can read here, it seems you need to debate what skill is first.

No, scratch that, because it seems you all believe that skill is whatever you think defines a good player, and almost always, a singular player.

How about there are different types of skills such as teamwork, strategy, aiming, positioning and that different weapon systems work differently and require different skills. But maybe that's because this game wasn't designed to reward a team for having all these skills combined. And maybe this is the problem we should be discussing!

This game shouldn't be about one particular skill that all players should be good at so that a team's total sum of that skill defines the winner. Maybe we should simply want more than that!

[C E Dwyer]

bad arcade kitty, on 30 May 2015 - 01:56 AM, said:

imo the indirect fire is their main advantage, lurms can help you even when the boat doesn't directly see your enemy, that's why it's important to lock for them, sometimes it can save your life

Best use of lurms is at around 350-400 meters with a tag system and artemis, in an assault, and even closer in a medium right down to 250 meters, targeting locked by yourself, backed up with medium lasers to poke at weak spots. I use my clan ones all but face hugging because each missile can still set off a crit.

You can see where they fall, you can still twist and spread damage ( why the Hunchback 4-J in my mind is the best Lurm boat in the game, its massive ability to twist, and can get back on target before the locks break) missiles make excellent crit seakers.

The reason Lurm boats get raged at and called no skill weapons are two fold.

The assault that hides and fires at 750-800 and worse from a hole in the ground QQ ing for locks with no other weapon than a tag (never used) so they can cram 2500 missiles in the robot ( only half ever get used at best) because they can't hit jack shite, because they can't see where the missiles are landing, so they compensate with mooore missiles.

you don't need more than 1400, my 4J has around 1200 by the time they are gone the game is won, and if they are not, then either you have been badly out of position all game or its a lost match, and those extra 1000 missiles are tonnage wasted that could have been used for DHS other weapons, bap cap, bigger engine or things that are actually useful.

The sniper who thinks they have the right to hide at the back on open ground and show off their leet skillz, and doesn't like it when he gets pissed on.


Used properly the LRM can be a very effective weapon

Edited by Cathy, 30 May 2015 - 02:33 AM.

[Unit47]

Cathy, on 30 May 2015 - 02:31 AM, said:

Used properly the LRM can be a very effective weapon

Thats probably the reason why they are so widespread in competitive matches.... oh wait.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mister D, on 29 May 2015 - 04:10 PM, said:

LRM's are a "I'm going to sit back like a big puss while you do all the work" weapon.

Laser vomit, while you may dislike it, is much more honorable IMO because you are risking exposure to get your shots off with LOS smack in the face of the enemy.

Missiles are the I will help whoever needs it weapon. It Supports. it can be used to make the enemy keep his head down while you position to use your lasers and ACs. To call someone like that a big puss is about brainless.

[Johny Rocket]

I love assumption/opinion based arguments. Most of the Lrm suck crowd have nothing but their own failures and opinions to base their arguments on.

So here are a few of my opinions on the matter.

Competitive team players make up what 1-2% of the player base, why should I care what they use or think?

Assuming all lrm players do it the same way is a weak argument based in a personal bias.

To be an effective lrm pilot requires high skill, when you are firing on an enemy you can't see, you have to know the terrain they are in, you have to know how to be sparing with your ammo, you have to be able to tell if a lock is good and will hold, and you have to be able to tell if you are hitting or not (or if its your teammate hitting) when you have line of sight and are locking your own targets you have to know how to dodge return fire while maintaining your locks until all missiles have hit.

If lrms suck so bad why do all of you run and hide from them? Lrms done right are the superior suppression weapon. You can use them to steer the enemy or control an area, when I want to go somewhere I just clean it out first and go.

Now even though I know trolls are going to come up with all kinds of arguments about how I got lucky or the other team sucked Im still going to link to a vid I posted awhile back where I do pretty well with them
the 2 kills I get are the OP Timbergods, 1 of which I hunt down and murder. Watch in HD for full affect.
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__4377688
I don't record much so not my best match in this mech or with lrms, just the one I happened to catch on vid.

Edited by Tractor Joe, 30 May 2015 - 05:46 AM.

[Mar-X-maN]

Easy to use, difficult to master, far from useless and worth more than streaks.

Anyone who brags about his streak- skill is just saying he's got no skill.

I use LRMs and SRMs but never streaks. Streaks suffer from the same hard locks as
LRMs do. Anyone who hates on LRMs for their hard locks but swears on streaks
is delusional. I could list all the disadvantages of streaks but what do I care.

[Satan n stuff]

Savage Wolf, on 30 May 2015 - 01:54 AM, said:

So you don't have a point for us to miss and don't want to acknowledge that he might have a point. Got it! Your irrelevant input is hereby ignored.

Savage Wolf, on 30 May 2015 - 01:56 AM, said:

I already made mine. But I don't mind sharing a good show.
I love seeing people who has no arguments try to justify why we should care.

Thunder Child, on 30 May 2015 - 01:54 AM, said:

He did kind of miss the point. Players with real skill are still gonna kill all teh tingz, as he said. That was never up for debate. Or at least, that wasn't the debate set forth in the OP.

The point of the debate was, if Lurms are just a point and click adventure, where the goal is to spray damage at the enemy, then what is the average (note, average, not top tier) laservomit player, if not the very same thing. The only real difference between the two (in average tier) is that Lurms can still miss after a lock due to a number of circumstances. Laservomit will hit, provided the shooter can get the crosshair on the target.

This does not imply that Laservomit is "more skillful", just because it is easier to land damage. It just means laservomit is easier to land damage in LoS.

At least someone here gets it.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 30 May 2015 - 06:04 AM.

[Kyynele]

Mar X maN, on 30 May 2015 - 05:53 AM, said:

Easy to use, difficult to master, far from useless and worth more than streaks.

Anyone who brags about his streak- skill is just saying he's got no skill.

I use LRMs and SRMs but never streaks. Streaks suffer from the same hard locks as
LRMs do. Anyone who hates on LRMs for their hard locks but swears on streaks
is delusional. I could list all the disadvantages of streaks but what do I care.

What. Does someone somewhere brag about Streak skills? They're probably the easiest weapon in the game to use, especially if the target is fast moving. The only bit that does require a bit of skill in using them, is that you do have to get relatively close and show yourself, so you have to be able to deal with people shooting at you. Which incidentally is the reason bad LRM players are so looked down upon, even though technically their weapon system is more challenging to master than Streaks.

Whether a weapon is effective or not does not necessarily have anything to do with the amount of skill required to use it.

The problem with LRMs is that they're very unreliable against good players, even more unreliable if masses of ECM and/or radar deprivation is used, and the indirect fire option encourages some bad players to play even worse. That's why they're branded as noob weapons. If you don't play LRMs like a noob, good for you, most LRM complaints aren't because of your behavior.

Laservomit doesn't take much skill either, but it works reliably against good players, and doesn't have any special qualities that would make scared bad players play even worse. You still have to go, take risks, and shoot at the enemy if you want to get damage done. That's why it's not branded a noob weapon despite being easy.

[AEgg]

If you are using LRMs and relying on locks from other people, you're doing it wrong. Arguing that LRMs are easier because you can fire them from behind cover at a target an ally is holding is like arguing that lasers are easy because you can fire them at a building with an enemy behind it. Neither of the two things works.

LRMs are harder to use effectively because your aim (which just about everyone already has due to playing other FPS games) won't get you very far. If you just mindlessly amble toward your enemies with LRMs, you're dead before you can fire. If you try to peek and shoot like you can with lasers or ballistics, you won't get a lock and if you do you'll just hit terrain.

For lasers to be effective, all you have to do is aim, which isn't a difficult skill, and most of us already have it. For LRMs to be effective, you have to actually outplay your opponent. Hence why they're not good for high-level play, because two teams of roughly equivalent skill won't be able to outplay each other.