384 replies to this topic

[Moomtazz]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 May 2015 - 09:12 AM, said:

Well I can put 7 out of 10 bullets in the head of a man sized silhouette at 500 meters using iron sights. And dropped 19 out of 20 bullets in a 4"x 6" target with an HK40 at 25-30 yards after firing 40 rounds with it to get familiar.

I think I can shoot.


Yeah windage stumps some folks

How is aiming a rifle or pistol IRL relevant at all to a mouse/KB game? I know you are ex-military, as am I, but you are constantly trying to apply RL things to a video game. We are talking video games here...

[Wintersdark]

Gut, on 30 May 2015 - 09:20 AM, said:

I think the entire argument lies in whether something can be used more skillfully or not. Of course it can. I can kick a ball, but can I kick it a football field's length? No.

But, kicking a golf ball is harder than kicking a soccer ball.

That's the difference.

LRMs are like kicking a beach ball.

... It's a lot easier to hit someone with a golf ball you kicked than a beach ball, though, when the person your kicking the ball at is actually trying to not get hit.

Just saying.

[Bishop Steiner]

Grisbane, on 30 May 2015 - 09:19 AM, said:

the argument has merit, but then again those lrm players that are in your face are the minority here. the mass majority are the mad dogs and catapults with 40-60 tubes spraying them at 800+ meters. i have long said the simple fix is to make them a LoS weapon, but i amend that with a "partially". if someone is narced or tagged then they should be able to indirect fire, but otherwise if lrm pilots had to get their own targets, they would more naturally learn that they need to actually get into the fight and not sit in the back like a bunch of idiots.. ruining maps like caustic valley because there is almost no lrm cover at all.


it would also give lights a more prominent scout role.. carrying a narc or tag would mean a lot more at that point. it would be a way to help preserve the lrm touting teammates by allowing them to stay out of direct firing lines and providing a support role.

if lrm's were direct fire, a .5 second lock (before artemis/bap) would be fine. you could also decrease the flight time and even slightly increase the time before lock drop without making the weapon OP. it's not the ceiling that needs raised here.. it's the 50 foot hole in the floor they dug to establish a skill base for them. Literally any idiot can use them to at least moderate effect. It's the window-licker-magnet part of them that needs removed.

I'd say the majority of in your face large laser players are in the minority, too. Especially on Lights. If you CAN take advantage of the range, you should, shouldn't you?

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Gut, on 30 May 2015 - 09:23 AM, said:

It's nerfed because of low elo, dude.

Its nerfed because the players in this game cant accept it ever being an effective weapon, dude

Same reason the angle of attack was nerfed from 90 degrees, same reason ECM was implimented the way it was even though it uses the wrong rules, etc etc etc

Wintersdark, on 30 May 2015 - 09:24 AM, said:

... It's a lot easier to hit someone with a golf ball you kicked than a beach ball, though, when the person your kicking the ball at is actually trying to not get hit.

Just saying.

Especially when you take wind into effect

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 30 May 2015 - 09:27 AM.

[Alex Morgaine]

Khobai, on 29 May 2015 - 08:05 PM, said:

well thats another idiotic thing in the game...

everyone who damages a mech should get fractional credit for the kill based on the damage done.

if you do 10% of the damage you get .1 kills. if you do 90% of the damage you get .9 kills.

no more kill stealing.

Seconded(or thirded or whatever) to have this implemented. Everyone works together, kdr goes up for everyone (well, mostly everyone), less complaints of allies running your game= more likely to teamwork.
Now back to lrm woes...

[Gut]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 30 May 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

Its nerfed because the players in this game cant accept it ever being an effective weapon, dude

Same reason the angle of attack was nerfed from 90 degrees, same reason ECM was implimented the way it was even though it uses the wrong rules, etc etc etc



Especially when you take wind into effect

The point that lrms become effective without changing the mechanic is the point where they are so OP that you have no choice but to take them to be viable, by their very nature.

I think I stated in the other LRM thread my idea for the mechanic change.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Frosty Brand, on 30 May 2015 - 09:30 AM, said:

Seconded(or thirded or whatever) to have this implemented. Everyone works together, kdr goes up for everyone (well, mostly everyone), less complaints of allies running your game= more likely to teamwork.
Now back to lrm woes...

That actually would go into LRM woes because the ppl who can hit with LRMs and do good damage would get all the kills. Ppl would FREAK OUT

[Joseph Mallan]

Moomtazz, on 30 May 2015 - 09:23 AM, said:

How is aiming a rifle or pistol IRL relevant at all to a mouse/KB game? I know you are ex-military, as am I, but you are constantly trying to apply RL things to a video game. We are talking video games here...

Well if someone is trying to say I can't aim. They are wrong, if they are saying I can't point and click fast enough... that may well be true. So aiming in a video game and aiming in real life are a bit different. but the fact remains video game or not I can aim pretty damn good,

[Gut]

Wintersdark, on 30 May 2015 - 09:24 AM, said:

... It's a lot easier to hit someone with a golf ball you kicked than a beach ball, though, when the person your kicking the ball at is actually trying to not get hit.

Just saying.

Here's your argument:

It's easy to avoid being hit by lrms.

Here's my response:

Because of the mechanic it uses, it should be easy to avoid.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Gut, on 30 May 2015 - 09:32 AM, said:

The point that lrms become effective without changing the mechanic is the point where they are so OP that you have no choice but to take them to be viable, by their very nature.

I was playing without AMS before ECM when LRMs left the launchers at 90 degrees and their AOA was 90 degrees but I never understood why people thought they were all powerful because I COULD STILL PLAY AND NOT DIE

And by all agreement, Im terrible at this game

I never got that argument

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 30 May 2015 - 09:35 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Gut, on 30 May 2015 - 09:33 AM, said:

Here's your argument:

It's easy to avoid being hit by lrms.

Here's my response:

Because of the mechanic it uses, it should be easy to avoid.

And when they were sped up to make em harder to avoid people cried, cause they weren't useless any more. Missiles are such a vicious cycle it hurts.

[Gut]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 30 May 2015 - 09:34 AM, said:

I was playing without AMS before ECM when LRMs left the launchers at 90 degrees and their AOA was 90 degrees but I never understood why people thought they were all powerful because I COULD STILL PLAY AND NOT DIE

I never got that argument

Let me put it this way, because here's where I'm coming from:

If lrms were powerful enough to be used to effectively help your team with the amount of damage that they do being greater than or equal to an average competitive player's skill set, they would be doing so much damage that the entire meta would shift over to lrm based.

Because of the beach ball analogy aiming wise, I think this would be an extremely bad move.

[Moomtazz]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 May 2015 - 09:33 AM, said:

Well if someone is trying to say I can't aim. They are wrong, if they are saying I can't point and click fast enough... that may well be true. So aiming in a video game and aiming in real life are a bit different. but the fact remains video game or not I can aim pretty damn good,

wtf...

[Wintersdark]

Gut, on 30 May 2015 - 09:33 AM, said:

Here's your argument:

It's easy to avoid being hit by lrms.

Here's my response:

Because of the mechanic it uses, it should be easy to avoid.

It should be, indeed. It *SHOULD* be hard to rain death on people you can't even see.

That makes them hard to use effectively. Hard to use effectively = high skill weapon.

But even when you can see them, it's STILL harder to use LRM's effectively than lasers. It's not enough to point and shoot, you still need to counter defensive tools like ECM, deal with appallingly slow projectile speed, account for ballistic arc of varying trajectory depending on range (which can be a problem for intervening terrain above you along the flight path, or lower terrain up close), for the fact that your opponent will know the moment the missiles are inbound and can react instantly, etc.

If I can see you, I can hit you with a laser. Even if I can get a lock on you, that doesn't mean my LRM's will hit you.

So, LRM's are (at any level of play beyond raw newbies) a reasonably high-skill weapon. Still not often a good weapon, or at weapon worth it's tonnage, but the value of a weapon has no bearing on it's skill requirement.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 May 2015 - 09:36 AM, said:

And when they were sped up to make em harder to avoid people cried, cause they weren't useless any more. Missiles are such a vicious cycle it hurts.

Like I said, ppl in this game can never accept them as useful weapons. Whenever they are the qq flood starts.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 30 May 2015 - 08:02 AM, said:

Huh thats new, I always read it was because the warheads dont arm till that range. Hence the point of hot loading the LRMs in the launcher



He definitely doesnt play them

In TT, you can kill with LRMs at min range, it just requires an act of RNJesus.

[Gut]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 May 2015 - 09:36 AM, said:

And when they were sped up to make em harder to avoid people cried, cause they weren't useless any more. Missiles are such a vicious cycle it hurts.

I'm okay with them going somewhat faster. Like I said in my post above though, the point where they become equal to the skill/damage of others, the nature of the mechanic makes them ridiculous.

[Wintersdark]

Gut, on 30 May 2015 - 09:37 AM, said:

Let me put it this way, because here's where I'm coming from:

If lrms were powerful enough to be used to effectively help your team with the amount of damage that they do being greater than or equal to an average competitive player's skill set, they would be doing so much damage that the entire meta would shift over to lrm based.

Because of the beach ball analogy aiming wise, I think this would be an extremely bad move.

We're kind of arguing different points. I'm discussing the thread topic itself.

I don't disagree with what you're saying. Without a doubt, if they improved LRM's ability in indirect fire to the point where they were worthwhile at comp play, they'd make them *grossly* overpowered everywhere else.

This thread isn't about that, though, it's about the skill level required to use LRM's effectively.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Wintersdark, on 30 May 2015 - 09:42 AM, said:

But even when you can see them, it's STILL harder to use LRM's effectively than lasers. It's not enough to point and shoot, you still need to counter defensive tools like ECM, deal with appallingly slow projectile speed, account for ballistic arc of varying trajectory depending on range (which can be a problem for intervening terrain above you along the flight path, or lower terrain up close), for the fact that your opponent will know the moment the missiles are inbound and can react instantly, etc.

IE the most nerfed weapon in the game. What other weapon system has these drawbacks?

I dont see "warning you are being targetted" with any other weapon system

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 30 May 2015 - 09:47 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Gut, on 30 May 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

I'm okay with them going somewhat faster. Like I said in my post above though, the point where they become equal to the skill/damage of others, the nature of the mechanic makes them ridiculous.

Missiles are all or nothing in MW:O on TT I COULD hit you with 4 LRM20s and to a total of 24 damage. Not likely but it is possible. Has it been determined how many missiles hit per salvo?