384 replies to this topic

[Weeny Machine]

LRMs

Outside of an ECM heavy environment LRMs aren't weak at all. Actually quite the opposite. LRMs are a supression weapon and still can rip you a new on in no time.

I also think they are hated because they shut you down quite efficiently because you must scurry into cover or get quite a beating. When you are engaged with an enemy this can be your undoing.

I hate LRMs especially when I am on light brawling mechs (snipers and harasser lights fare much better).

Flutterguy has it about right. The last sentence is true in the light of the ECM inflation which is a bad joke.

Flutterguy, on 29 May 2015 - 04:06 PM, said:

LRMs have both the lowest skill floor to use and the highest skill cap to master. The problem is that the payout for the effort involved in using LRMs well is not worth the investment.

All in all I must say the implementation of LRMs is simply bad. The ability to easily support anyone is OP. The inflation of ECM is no solution. ECM is just another bandaid with its very own problems to counter LRMs. Both should be reworked

Lasers

I often see meta-fetichists scoffing at LRMs as noob weapons. I find that rather amusing because they use a hitscan weapon which doesn't even use ammo and can be buffed to immense ranges.Can it get iany cheaper? I don't think so.

LRMs are much harder to use if you want to be efficient - and I dare to say they won't be useful with the ECM sickness which is rampant. Heck, there are matches where PGI could simply turn of my radar because it doesn't show anything at all.

[Wintersdark]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 30 May 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

IE the most nerfed weapon in the game. What other weapon system has these drawbacks?

Yeah, it's a fundamental design problem. They need to separate indirect fire from direct fire, I think, or something. Because it's really, really easy to make LRM's god-weapons for low end play, and that's undesirable.

On the other hand, the ability for everyone to bring ECM in any weight class is highly problematic for LRM's these days. They went from difficult to use to nearly impossible, simply because there's so often multiple overlapping layers of ECM everywhere.

It's tough in CW, but in pug play there's simply so damn many ECM mechs now, that even unintentionally teams are typically stacked with it.

[Joseph Mallan]

Wintersdark, on 30 May 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

We're kind of arguing different points. I'm discussing the thread topic itself.

I don't disagree with what you're saying. Without a doubt, if they improved LRM's ability in indirect fire to the point where they were worthwhile at comp play, they'd make them *grossly* overpowered everywhere else.

This thread isn't about that, though, it's about the skill level required to use LRM's effectively.

Direct fire weapons: Lead the target and click

Missiles: get teh lock click and follow the target

Both use little to no skill,

[Gut]

Wintersdark, on 30 May 2015 - 09:42 AM, said:

It should be, indeed. It *SHOULD* be hard to rain death on people you can't even see.

That makes them hard to use effectively. Hard to use effectively = high skill weapon.

But even when you can see them, it's STILL harder to use LRM's effectively than lasers. It's not enough to point and shoot, you still need to counter defensive tools like ECM, deal with appallingly slow projectile speed, account for ballistic arc of varying trajectory depending on range (which can be a problem for intervening terrain above you along the flight path, or lower terrain up close), for the fact that your opponent will know the moment the missiles are inbound and can react instantly, etc.

If I can see you, I can hit you with a laser. Even if I can get a lock on you, that doesn't mean my LRM's will hit you.

So, LRM's are (at any level of play beyond raw newbies) a reasonably high-skill weapon. Still not often a good weapon, or at weapon worth it's tonnage, but the value of a weapon has no bearing on it's skill requirement.

I'm sorry, but the hardest weapon to use effectively is, as many people have said here, the IS erppc. You have to lead shots. You have to physically aim and mentally time the shot, and it's all or nothing. The fact that you can hide after the shot doesn't make it less skillful to use.

People keep claiming that because it doesn't do the damage/have the flight time of other weapons, it requires more skill.

It requires a certain amount of skill, sure, but nothing close to when you have to expose yourself for a shot. The positioning when you have to expose yourself for a shot means EVERYTHING in comparison.

[Wintersdark]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 30 May 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

I dont see "warning you are being targetted" with any other weapon system

We actually DID have that for a little while.

[Gas Guzzler]

Just because a weapon SUCKS doesn't mean it takes skill! Is there some skill? Sure, it takes positioning and knowing where to be and when to be there, but that doesn't make it a high skill weapon, because every other weapon requires those skills, and more. Yeah you can get lucky and have the opportunity to sit in cover and rain down missiles on the team that is trying to deal with other direct fire targets. You will probably walk away with super high damage, but that has nothing to do with you. That isn't your "skill" at all.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 30 May 2015 - 09:53 AM.

[xWiredx]

90% of players will be able to do about the same amount of damage with any decently thought-out armament, be it LRM, SRM, ballistic, or laser-based. Play style and experience > specific weapons. We're done here. Everybody can go play now.

[Joseph Mallan]

Gas Guzzler, on 30 May 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

Just because a weapon SUCKS doesn't mean it takes skill! Yeah you can get lucky and have the opportunity to sit in cover and rain down missiles on the team that is trying to deal with other direct fire targets. You will probably walk away with super high damage, but that has nothing to do with you. That isn't your "skill" at all.

It doesn't have anything to do with knowing which target needs the least amount of rain to finish off to allow your teammate to help out on another Mech?

A Sniper sits off the front line and uses skill to put a bullet in the enemy COs eye at a mile and a half away. Artillery sits back in teh rear usually well behind the second line, and rains hell on the enemy. Skill and proximity to danger are not synonymous.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Bush Hopper, on 30 May 2015 - 09:48 AM, said:

I hate LRMs especially when I am on light brawling mechs (snipers and harasser lights fare much better).

Fast mechs have it better. I see my missiles hitting the ground behind them all the time and them taking no damage. So it doesnt matter if they require no skill to aim, its worthless if you cant HIT THEM

Gut, on 30 May 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

I'm sorry, but the hardest weapon to use effectively is, as many people have said here, the IS erppc. You have to lead shots. You have to physically aim and mentally time the shot, and it's all or nothing. The fact that you can hide after the shot doesn't make it less skillful to use.

Yet when you fire it right youre pretty much guaranteed a hit yes?

Even when you fire LRMs right, the target lock could get broken and you dont hit jack

Gas Guzzler, on 30 May 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

Just because a weapon SUCKS doesn't mean it takes skill!

Doesnt mean it doesnt either

[Gut]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 May 2015 - 09:56 AM, said:

It doesn't have anything to do with knowing which target needs the least amount of rain to finish off to allow your teammate to help out on another Mech?

A Sniper sits off the front line and uses skill to put a bullet in the enemy COs eye at a mile and a half away. Artillery sits back in teh rear usually well behind the second line, and rains hell on the enemy. Skill and proximity to danger are not synonymous.

To me, selecting a target is relatively easy no matter what weapon there is... lrms wouldn't make that choice harder. Then again, most people don't know what they're doing.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 May 2015 - 09:56 AM, said:

Artillery sits back in teh rear usually well behind the second line, and rains hell on the enemy.

So they get bitched at for being no skill noobs? Im genuinely curious

[Wintersdark]

Gut, on 30 May 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

I'm sorry, but the hardest weapon to use effectively is, as many people have said here, the IS erppc. You have to lead shots. You have to physically aim and mentally time the shot, and it's all or nothing. The fact that you can hide after the shot doesn't make it less skillful to use.

I didn't say LRM's are the hardest weapons to use effectively. I said they were hard to use effectively.

You need to read a bit more carefully there. The point of this thread is that LRM's are not "no skill noob weapons".

And, that need to expose yourself? That applies with LRM's, too. You still need to have LOS to a target - either you, a teammate, or a UAV (which won't last long at all, and can only be used once). Someone on your team needs to be getting and holding a target long enough for you to get and hold the lock. So, while it's true that LRM's can share their workload, they have a much higher workload than other weapons.

You still need to expose yourself - someone does - and what's more they have to do so for a much longer time than someone with a PPC. Your weapons are useless at twice the minimum range as the standard PPC. Your target gets a warning that shots are incoming the moment they are fired. Magic 1.5t Jesusboxes render your weapons useless unless you bring other wildly different weapons and use them all together effectively.

Comparatively, lasers are easymode. If you lack skill with lasers, you still hit your target, just spread the damage. Spreading the damage is best case with LRM's, much more often you'll be unable to do any damage at all without substantial skill.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Gut, on 30 May 2015 - 10:00 AM, said:

To me, selecting a target is relatively easy no matter what weapon there is... lrms wouldn't make that choice harder. Then again, most people don't know what they're doing.

lol nice ego

Wintersdark, on 30 May 2015 - 10:01 AM, said:

I didn't say LRM's are the hardest weapons to use effectively.

I did

[Gut]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 30 May 2015 - 09:59 AM, said:

Yet when you fire it right youre pretty much guaranteed a hit yes?

If you aim correctly yes. That's where the "what I call actual" skill part comes in.

Wintersdark, on 30 May 2015 - 10:01 AM, said:

I didn't say LRM's are the hardest weapons to use effectively. I said they were hard to use effectively.

You need to read a bit more carefully there. The point of this thread is that LRM's are not "no skill noob weapons".

And, that need to expose yourself? That applies with LRM's, too. You still need to have LOS to a target - either you, a teammate, or a UAV (which won't last long at all, and can only be used once). Someone on your team needs to be getting and holding a target long enough for you to get and hold the lock. So, while it's true that LRM's can share their workload, they have a much higher workload than other weapons.

You still need to expose yourself - someone does - and what's more they have to do so for a much longer time than someone with a PPC. Your weapons are useless at twice the minimum range as the standard PPC. Your target gets a warning that shots are incoming the moment they are fired. Magic 1.5t Jesusboxes render your weapons useless unless you bring other wildly different weapons and use them all together effectively.

Comparatively, lasers are easymode. If you lack skill with lasers, you still hit your target, just spread the damage. Spreading the damage is best case with LRM's, much more often you'll be unable to do any damage at all without substantial skill.

You take out the fact that the person who is the spotter has guns as well. Just because you have someone else helping you doesn't make the fact of what you're doing less or more skillful.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Wintersdark, on 30 May 2015 - 10:01 AM, said:

You still need to have LOS to a target - either you, a teammate, or a UAV

And to use the module or Artemis you actually have to have LOS for them to work.

And the lock must be kept till the missiles hit or you might miss. I laugh every time I fire missiles at a target, they break the lock and I still get reticle flash because they would have avoided them had they just MOVED

[Eider]

This is still going on? let me end it. Lrms are considered noob weapons because you can safely hide behind a mountain. Whats that? they can break locks blah blah? well good thing you got at least 2 thousand missiles right? You take no real risk in comparison to lasers. If i could fire lasers behind cover from at least 1k away from the enemy then sure, you could call those noob too.

[Gas Guzzler]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 May 2015 - 09:56 AM, said:

It doesn't have anything to do with knowing which target needs the least amount of rain to finish off to allow your teammate to help out on another Mech?

A Sniper sits off the front line and uses skill to put a bullet in the enemy COs eye at a mile and a half away. Artillery sits back in teh rear usually well behind the second line, and rains hell on the enemy. Skill and proximity to danger are not synonymous.

Yeah, and direct fire mechs don't also need to know that?

Your RL military analogies hardly apply to video game skillz in this case.

Sorry guys, every single skill you need to use LRMs, also applies to direct-fire weapons.

[Weeny Machine]

Gas Guzzler, on 30 May 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

Just because a weapon SUCKS doesn't mean it takes skill! Is there some skill? Sure, it takes positioning and knowing where to be and when to be there, but that doesn't make it a high skill weapon, because every other weapon requires those skills, and more. Yeah you can get lucky and have the opportunity to sit in cover and rain down missiles on the team that is trying to deal with other direct fire targets. You will probably walk away with super high damage, but that has nothing to do with you. That isn't your "skill" at all.

I would like to see you try to pierce several layers of ECM with a TAG and get a lock and not be shot to pieces. That requires skills: good positioning and situational awareness. Peeking out from a corner and spam your lasers and scurry back is...ridiculous compared to that

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 30 May 2015 - 10:00 AM, said:

So they get bitched at for being no skill noobs? Im genuinely curious

Actually we do. We get called lazy ass POGs, REMFs, Fobbits, etc all time. But we have a working relationship with the infantry. They get into a bind or need a playing field leveled, they call up a fire mission which we respond to by ******* **** up with steel rain.

[Wintersdark]

Gas Guzzler, on 30 May 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

Just because a weapon SUCKS doesn't mean it takes skill! Is there some skill? Sure, it takes positioning and knowing where to be and when to be there, but that doesn't make it a high skill weapon, because every other weapon requires those skills, and more. Yeah you can get lucky and have the opportunity to sit in cover and rain down missiles on the team that is trying to deal with other direct fire targets. You will probably walk away with super high damage, but that has nothing to do with you. That isn't your "skill" at all.

No, LRM's don't require skill because they suck. They require skill because, unlike all those other weapons, LRM's are unique in requiring multiple, diverse weapon types to be used effectively, and those weapons all have to be used together. This doesn't make LRM's good weapons. But it does absolutely require a lot of skill.

Being able to get good games because your opponents are bad and you hide in the back doesn't make LRM's "skillless noob weapons" either - though they ARE very easy to use against poor players. But if your opponents aren't bad, it takes substantial skill and teamwork to use LRM's effectively.


The "....and more" you reference? The "And more" is tracking hit location. That's important, to maximize the weapon. But if you're not good at that, you're at least still doing damage to your target. Now, I'm the first person behind the importance of useful damage, but that's the end of "...and more". It doesn't matter if your target has/is under ECM when you're firing lasers at it.

---

But I'm not saying LRM's are the hardest weapons to use, just that they absolutely require a substantial skill set to use effectively against players that are of medium skill or higher. You can use lasers to comparable effectiveness (that is, spreading damage with them) with much, MUCH less skill - you're just pointing and clicking on enemy mechs.

At the level of play where people are always focusing laser damage on targets, it's extremely difficult to use LRM's effectively. This doesn't make them low skill weapons, quite the opposite. If you CAN use them effectively there, it's because you're coupling them with TAG/NARC and using them effectively as well, all the while employing all those other skills - managing exposure while getting/holding locks, etc. This is why LRM's stop being used - it's WAY WAY easier to be effective with lasers at those levels of play than LRM's.