384 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 30 May 2015 - 11:13 AM, said:

So I decided to try the laser spew... I got dropped on river city night. I hate that map cause I think Im the only one who doesnt cheat and use some sort of gamma correction program. Thats what it feels like anyways, I seem to be the only one who cant shoot past the ability to see the target -.-

yup. And the more "comp" you are, it seems, the lower your graphic settings, and the more you remove particles, etc, too. The way some guys play seems about as exciting and visually gratifying as PÔNG. Must be real important to be the "best" of a bad video game made to look even worse for an "edge".

maybe not true in all cases, but it's pretty sad.

[Wintersdark]

Oh, and to be fair: cleverly applied NARC on the right maps. With lots of lurms, a narcing light can be extremely lethal to the unwary.

[Ragtag soldier]

Wintersdark, on 30 May 2015 - 11:29 AM, said:

The remaining deaths have been due to aggressive typically medium LRM skirmishers cleverly ducking in and out of covet to maintain their locks while endlessly raining LRM's on me. Pretty skilled play, ultimately, and still: if I had radar deep of ecm, most of those few deaths wouldn't have happened.

i'd like to note that you would have died faster to those LRM skirmishers if they'd been packing lasers, and you wouldn't have had an effective means ot counting them available like ECM or radar derp in that case....

[Bishop Steiner]

Eider, on 30 May 2015 - 11:30 AM, said:

Play any actual game other than forum warrior and you will see all you need.

20k matches here. I've likely seen more than you. But honestly, you're so closed minded your laughably inaccurate opinion is pretty meaningless. If you were at least a Comp Player, I'd grant they have no real use in High Elo Team play. And thus their derision, even if myopic, has a basis in reason.

The only other place that would be is the underhive, where players are so bad they actually die to LRMs regularly. Because if they are easy Mode, they should be the Meta. as it is, they are the least accurate weapon in the game for a reason.

Congrats on winning the Golden Steering Wheel Award.

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 May 2015 - 11:31 AM, said:

yup. And the more "comp" you are, it seems, the lower your graphic settings, and the more you remove particles, etc, too. The way some guys play seems about as exciting and visually gratifying as PÔNG. Must be real important to be the "best" of a bad video game made to look even worse for an "edge".

maybe not true in all cases, but it's pretty sad.

To be fair... I play at high settings, don't have any gamma correction going on aside from color calibration when I installed my monitor (I also do graphics work, being a printer by trade), but I can see clearly everywhere on RCN. May just be hardware differences, room lighting, I don't know, but I don't use alternate vision modes on RCN.

Well, except for in a brawl with explosions and weapon flashes, because the HDR effects din your display during bright events on a dark map.

Reducing visual awesomeness for advantage? Bah, I'd rather win a bit less but have HAWT MECH PR0N.

Ragtag soldier, on 30 May 2015 - 11:32 AM, said:

i'd like to note that you would have died faster to those LRM skirmishers if they'd been packing lasers, and you wouldn't have had an effective means ot counting them available like ECM or radar derp in that case....

This is true. I play lrm skirmishers myself, and do exactly that. My 4J's 6ML's have claimed many mechs

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 30 May 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:

To be fair... I play at high settings, don't have any gamma correction going on aside from color calibration when I installed my monitor (I also do graphics work, being a printer by trade), but I can see clearly everywhere on RCN. May just be hardware differences, room lighting, I don't know, but I don't use alternate vision modes on RCN.

Well, except for in a brawl with explosions and weapon flashes, because the HDR effects din your display during bright events on a dark map.

Reducing visual awesomeness for advantage? Bah, I'd rather win a bit less but have HAWT MECH PR0N.

This is true. I play lrm skirmishers myself, and do exactly that. My 4J's 6ML's have claimed many mechs

no offense I don't really consider you a "Comp" either. We do have a few players at CGBI who might be skilled enough, but seems like very few are dedicated (or lacking in better things to do) to actually put a team together like EMP, SJR or LORDs.

And a lot of what holds true for Comp team play is pointless in Solo queue, where only a handful are near as dangerous as their reputation (Proton, Heim, Koreanese back in the day, etc). I find most, without disciplined Meta Team play backing them may be good, but very mortal compared to their Team reputations.

I guess, I just figure comp is more the mentality and team play to my mind than the raw skill, often. After all, if you aren't peeling things to the bleeding edge, how competitive can you REALLY be?

[Moomtazz]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 May 2015 - 11:34 AM, said:

20k matches here. I've likely seen more than you. But honestly, you're so closed minded your laughably inaccurate opinion is pretty meaningless. If you were at least a Comp Player, I'd grant they have no real use in High Elo Team play. And thus their derision, even if myopic, has a basis in reason.

The only other place that would be is the underhive, where players are so bad they actually die to LRMs regularly. Because if they are easy Mode, they should be the Meta. as it is, they are the least accurate weapon in the game for a reason.

Congrats on winning the Golden Steering Wheel Award.

Closed minded is thinking anyone who complains is a bad player who dies to LRMs all the time. Fact is one LRM boat is not a big deal. It's multiple LRM boats who can all rain on the same target is the problem.

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 May 2015 - 11:43 AM, said:

no offense I don't really consider you a "Comp" either. We do have a few players at CGBI who might be skilled enough, but seems like very few are dedicated (or lacking in better things to do) to actually put a team together like EMP, SJR or LORDs.

None taken. If I buckle down and go all compy, I can hold my own just fine with the big boys, but I lack the interest and motivation to sacrifice what I love in the game for winning. For the best players I think its more a matter that winning is what thy love in the game (nothing wrong with this!) so there's no cost... But what I love most? Awesome visuals, cool mechs, tinkering in the mechlab, and dying in glorious brawls. That last is a serious issue, because I'll not retreat in some cases where I probably should, because the fight is just too much fun.

As well, while I love optimizing mechs to the fullest extent possible, I'm not a very competitive person by nature, so I don't have that real drive that's required to be exceptionally good.

Quote

And a lot of what holds true for Comp team play is pointless in Solo queue, where only a handful are near as dangerous as their reputation (Proton, Heim, Koreanese back in the day, etc). I find most, without disciplined Meta Team play backing them may be good, but very mortal compared to their Team reputations.

And many are even downright bad in solo queues, because they play pretty much exclusively elsewhere. All derisive comments aside, playing in the solo queues requires totally different builds, concepts and strategies.

Quote

I guess, I just figure comp is more the mentality and team play to my mind than the raw skill, often. After all, if you aren't peeling things to the bleeding edge, how competitive can you REALLY be?

Absolutely.

[Bishop Steiner]

Moomtazz, on 30 May 2015 - 11:57 AM, said:

Closed minded is thinking anyone who complains is a bad player who dies to LRMs all the time. Fact is one LRM boat is not a big deal. It's multiple LRM boats who can all rain on the same target is the problem.

fact is you don't see good players on here crying they died to it. because they don't, almost ever. and in higher elos you almost never see massed lrms because they are bad.

also, i don't think him closed minded because he disagrees. i think it because the cherrypicking myopic obtuseness of his posts make it plainly apparent.

[Wintersdark]

Moomtazz, on 30 May 2015 - 11:57 AM, said:

Closed minded is thinking anyone who complains is a bad player who dies to LRMs all the time. Fact is one LRM boat is not a big deal. It's multiple LRM boats who can all rain on the same target is the problem.

well, no. If multiple lrm boats can all rain on the same target, and its not because of a really awesome (and exceptionally risky) play, its because that target has made multiple really poor decisions.

Peek around a corner, eat 6 gauss rounds... Bad choice of peeking, but there's nothing you can do after than one little mistake. Peek around a corner and 8 mechs launch LRM's at you.. You move back into cover, find the nearest ECM ally on your team, and keep him alive while laughing at the massive amount of enemy tonnage rendered useless.

You then PUSH THE DAMN LRM BOATS. Winning vs LRM's is garaunteed if you all push. LRM's damage output is low vs. tonnage investment, and they are very ineffective against aggressive opponents and completely useless at short range.

This is why we keep saying LRM's are hard to use well: there are MANY defensive actions the lrm target can take, active and passive, to reduce or outright negate lrm effectiveness, which are not shared with other weapon types. If you die to LRM's often, put aside your pride and learn

[ShinVector]

**LRMs the weapons that most noobs prefer.

It take people quite a while to figure how to fight in the front lines rather than staying back and lobbing missiles behind your opponents.

Anyone can use lasers... Being effective with it is another thing... Especially for high ping folks.

[Rush Maguin]

I've been using indirect LRM fire in the Battletech tabletop since it was first introduced sometime in the 90s, and it -is- one of the most effective ways to support fire for your troops, especially against the clans. Keeping it as is makes it flush with the board game that much more. I run missile boats and with a team effort going, you can really maximize your LRM use. I've also been on the receiving end of fatal, non-stop LRM barrages. While in some people's opinions it takes little trigger skill to use, I'd say it takes a lot of tactical skill these days. If you don't have a team effort supporting your LRMs, your goose is cooked. (I'm only ever aggravated by a ghost lock. The LRM locks on and the split second I hit my LRM flight, the lock vanishes and my missiles careen out into oblivion. That's far more troubling to me).

[Moomtazz]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 May 2015 - 12:07 PM, said:

fact is you don't see good players on here crying they died to it. because they don't, almost ever. and in higher elos you almost never see massed lrms because they are bad.

also, i don't think him closed minded because he disagrees. i think it because the cherrypicking myopic obtuseness of his posts make it plainly apparent.

I'm a good player, my deaths to LRMs are probably 1% of my total deaths, and I'm on here complaining about them. You seem to think anyone who complains about them must be a noob. Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you.

Wintersdark, on 30 May 2015 - 12:09 PM, said:

well, no. If multiple lrm boats can all rain on the same target, and its not because of a really awesome (and exceptionally risky) play, its because that target has made multiple really poor decisions.

Peek around a corner, eat 6 gauss rounds... Bad choice of peeking, but there's nothing you can do after than one little mistake. Peek around a corner and 8 mechs launch LRM's at you.. You move back into cover, find the nearest ECM ally on your team, and keep him alive while laughing at the massive amount of enemy tonnage rendered useless.

You then PUSH THE DAMN LRM BOATS. Winning vs LRM's is garaunteed if you all push. LRM's damage output is low vs. tonnage investment, and they are very ineffective against aggressive opponents and completely useless at short range.

This is why we keep saying LRM's are hard to use well: there are MANY defensive actions the lrm target can take, active and passive, to reduce or outright negate lrm effectiveness, which are not shared with other weapon types. If you die to LRM's often, put aside your pride and learn

What about one mech has you targeted and multiple LRM mechs all hit R and fire on you while they are back out of sight. How did that mech make multiple mistakes?

You say peek around the corner and 8 LRM mechs fire on you, but those 8 mechs don't need to see you.

Edited by Moomtazz, 30 May 2015 - 12:39 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Moomtazz, on 30 May 2015 - 11:57 AM, said:

Closed minded is thinking anyone who complains is a bad player who dies to LRMs all the time. Fact is one LRM boat is not a big deal. It's multiple LRM boats who can all rain on the same target is the problem.

I would agree with you Moomtaz, on any other weapon. LRMs place almost full responsibility on the target. If the pilot is bad, they will die to them often. If the pilot isn't then no matter what the LRM boat pilot might do, they will not get a good shot.

Moomtazz, on 30 May 2015 - 12:36 PM, said:

What about one mech has you targeted and multiple LRM mechs all hit R and fire on you while they are back out of sight. How did that mech make multiple mistakes?

You say peek around the corner and 8 LRM mechs fire on you, but those 8 mechs don't need to see you.

Still the fault of the guy getting targeted. Here are the mistakes he made:

1- Not using good cover
2- Not paying attention to his surroundings to see if there are spotters

Those are the main 2 mistakes. There are more that I won't list, because they are situational, or hypothetical. Those 2 however, are solid, and constant.

[Wintersdark]

Moomtazz, on 30 May 2015 - 12:36 PM, said:

What about one mech has you targeted and multiple LRM mechs all hit R and fire on you while they are back out of sight. How did that mech make multiple mistakes?

You say peek around the corner and 8 LRM mechs fire on you, but those 8 mechs don't need to see you.

Be a little more detailed, there.

You peek around the corner, and someone can see you, probably starts firing at you. Several seconds later, the LRM mechs have gotten locks and open fire. There's several more seconds before those missiles can hit you (assuming they had clear lines of fire to you, which isn't garaunteed).

You could have moved back into the cover you came from, or into the cover you're going to. If you know the opposing team has LRM's (and you know this very early) you should not be so far from cover and no ECM. It's rare for a team to have NO ECM anymore, what with all the mechs packing it.

So, you've chosen to move into the open, and stay in the open, while there are multiple LRM mechs about, without ECM, etc. It takes a substantial amount of LRM fire to bring anyone down; you don't just fall over dead, due to the marvels of spread damage.

Always know time to cover, have a destination, an option if a bunch of LRM's should launch - at least until you know if that's a threat.

[ArchSight]

The truth is LRM's need to be buffed but PGI hasn't done it in a way that doesn't outrage the community to make LRM a effective weapon system as the direct fire options.

When PGI was attempting to buff LRMs to be affective they caused plenty LRM outrage on the forums. The last buff attempt was a velocity increase which is the travel time being faster. This was bad because as this poster said,

Ragtag soldier, on 29 May 2015 - 04:11 PM, said:

no, see LRMS are noob weapon because they can hit you without seeing you, where as lasers are perfect skill-based instant damage weps. is gud deal.

people don't play online games to get ambushed, they play online games to do ambushes. LRMs mean they can get ambushed for running into enemies and shooting them from out of nowhere, which is clearly overpowered and so LRMs are the problem.

Having LRM's that travel across the map quickly caused ambushes from nowhere when a mech was simply peaking over a hill at one mech, not a whole team. That part about LRM's must remained nerfed in order to preserve player's control on how much damage they expose themselves to taking.

The part that needs a buff for LRM's is the travel time to the target when vs direct fire weapon platforms fighting the LRM boat. This is because direct fire weapons are faster at doing full damage to a single area and can then retreat behind cover before LRM's make it to the target. This can cause player's to throw the weapon system off their mechs due to not being reliable enough to use in enough situations that they get into.

Now what really needs to be done to buff that part of LRM's without out raging the community is adding the travel time increase to having the LRM carrier keep Line of Sight of the target by themselves. The game already activates a buff to LRM's when artemis is equipped upon Line of Sight. Re-using this mechanic but changing the buff to travel speed will allow LRM's be fired as fast as Direct fire weapons on a target that the LRM carrier can see with their own eye's.
This will stop the travel speed buff from being applied to indirect lock-ons that cause the ambush from nowhere.

[Thunder Child]

Just remove the damned locking system, buff flight speed to 400m/s, and make it use a standard FPS Grenade Launcher Mechanic, with 1000m being the absolute highest you can aim, and 50m being the absolute lowest. Also, add a scale to the battlegrid so that players can estimate ranges.

Tada, LRMs now ignore ECM, like they should. They require "aiming skillzz" to actually hit anything at a distance. They have the speed to get there fast enough to actually hit, provided your aim is good. And because they go up and over **** again, without needing a lock, they can be used to force players out of cover, as they are meant to. Narc would be a homing beacon which pulls in any missiles which pass within 180m, and is negated by ECM. Artemis missiles can't be affected by Narc. Artemis missiles have a much tighter spread, but have a much flatter trajectory. They will tighten spread onto a TAG Laser. Normal LRMs are unaffected by TAG.

LRMs are now fixed.

[Johny Rocket]

ArchSight, on 30 May 2015 - 01:09 PM, said:

The truth is LRM's need to be buffed but PGI hasn't done it in a way that doesn't outrage the community to make LRM a effective weapon system as the direct fire options.

When PGI was attempting to buff LRMs to be affective they caused plenty LRM outrage on the forums. The last buff attempt was a velocity increase which is the travel time being faster. This was bad because as this poster said,


Having LRM's that travel across the map quickly caused ambushes from nowhere when a mech was simply peaking over a hill at one mech, not a whole team. That part about LRM's must remained nerfed in order to preserve player's control on how much damage they expose themselves to taking.

The part that needs a buff for LRM's is the travel time to the target when vs direct fire weapon platforms fighting the LRM boat. This is because direct fire weapons are faster at doing full damage to a single area and can then retreat behind cover before LRM's make it to the target. This can cause player's to throw the weapon system off their mechs due to not being reliable enough to use in enough situations that they get into.

Now what really needs to be done to buff that part of LRM's without out raging the community is adding the travel time increase to having the LRM carrier keep Line of Sight of the target by themselves. The game already activates a buff to LRM's when artemis is equipped upon Line of Sight. Re-using this mechanic but changing the buff to travel speed will allow LRM's be fired as fast as Direct fire weapons on a target that the LRM carrier can see with their own eye's.
This will stop the travel speed buff from being applied to indirect lock-ons that cause the ambush from nowhere.

Someday people will learn to stop asking PGI to buff or nerf anything. Did no one learn a lesson from the Clanners crying about the 4N? Sure it got some modest nerfs and they screwed the Timber, Crow, and cerll while they were at it.

[IraqiWalker]

Tractor Joe, on 30 May 2015 - 01:46 PM, said:

Someday people will learn to stop asking PGI to buff or nerf anything. Did no one learn a lesson from the Clanners crying about the 4N? Sure it got some modest nerfs and they screwed the Timber, Crow, and cerll while they were at it.

If by "screwed" you mean "totally unaffected". Then you would be correct.

[KuroNyra]

Thunder Child, on 30 May 2015 - 01:45 PM, said:

Just remove the damned locking system, buff flight speed to 400m/s, and make it use a standard FPS Grenade Launcher Mechanic, with 1000m being the absolute highest you can aim, and 50m being the absolute lowest. Also, add a scale to the battlegrid so that players can estimate ranges.