41 replies to this topic

[LordNothing]

so the word is that ammo consuming weapons are uncompetitive because they dont have infinite ammo like laser vomit and have fixed damage ceilings depending on how much tonnage you dedicate to ammo. i for one like to bring autocannons and think that the this way of thinking is wrong. vary rarely do i run out of ammo in cw, death usually comes first.

in puglandia you have one mech that needs to last 15 minutes but in cw a mech need only last 7.5 minutes. even then i opt to bring more than the usual amount of ammo and use light weapons like medium lasers as backup. im not really worried about running out of ammo, so long as you have enough to score multiple kills which will allow you to stay ahead and make the mech pay for itself. accuracy is important, as is the ability to lead a target. face time is more but screen shake kind of balances that out.

when the ammo is done you can do many things, suicide scout, block, tank, or if you are ahead, eject for a new mech. some ballistic builds have enough laser firepower to keep in the game even without the ammo. at least to turn on override and land as many laser alphas as you can before your core cooks.

one huge advantage is the ability to sustain fire where laser boats are overheating. you can manage huge killing streaks with heavy ballistics during the latter part of a rush. after considerable heat buildup and damage from large alphas, its a nice time to have a big gun that wont overheat you to much.

[lshtaria]

As it stands I don't see a problem with ammo or its requirements per ton for any weapon.

[Bishop Steiner]

LordNothing, on 29 May 2015 - 08:04 PM, said:

so the word is that ammo consuming weapons are uncompetitive because they dont have infinite ammo like laser vomit and have fixed damage ceilings depending on how much tonnage you dedicate to ammo. i for one like to bring autocannons and think that the this way of thinking is wrong. vary rarely do i run out of ammo in cw, death usually comes first.

in puglandia you have one mech that needs to last 15 minutes but in cw a mech need only last 7.5 minutes. even then i opt to bring more than the usual amount of ammo and use light weapons like medium lasers as backup. im not really worried about running out of ammo, so long as you have enough to score multiple kills which will allow you to stay ahead and make the mech pay for itself. accuracy is important, as is the ability to lead a target. face time is more but screen shake kind of balances that out.

when the ammo is done you can do many things, suicide scout, block, tank, or if you are ahead, eject for a new mech. some ballistic builds have enough laser firepower to keep in the game even without the ammo. at least to turn on override and land as many laser alphas as you can before your core cooks.

one huge advantage is the ability to sustain fire where laser boats are overheating. you can manage huge killing streaks with heavy ballistics during the latter part of a rush. after considerable heat buildup and damage from large alphas, its a nice time to have a big gun that wont overheat you to much.

It's idiocy, promoted by those who simply think infinite ammo would somehow improve their KDrs.

In CW, your mechs are Consumables. USe them up, then go suicide scout.

As long as you do decent damage before you run out of ammo, who gives a crap?

[Col Jaime Wolf]

infinite ammo is for *******

[Armored Yokai]

Man people just fall to the meta and ignore weapons that are really good or useful.....

Edited by Armored Yokai, 29 May 2015 - 08:26 PM.

[WazOfOz]

ammo based weapons have some advantages over energy i.e. heat, screen shake. the last thing they need is infinite ammo.

[Templar Dane]

Mechs have twice the armor than they had in TT.

TT AC20 ammo per ton, 5. MWO 7
TT LRM ammo per ton, 120 MWO 180
TT AC5 ammo per ton, 20 MWO 30
TT SRM ammo per ton, 90. MWO 100

Twice as much armor or more [because of quirks and the fact a lot of TT mechs didn't have max armor to begin with] to chew through, but not twice the ammo.

[FupDup]

lordtzar, on 29 May 2015 - 09:35 PM, said:

Mechs have twice the armor than they had in TT.

TT AC20 ammo per ton, 5. MWO 7
TT LRM ammo per ton, 120 MWO 180
TT AC5 ammo per ton, 20 MWO 30
TT SRM ammo per ton, 90. MWO 100

Twice as much armor or more [because of quirks and the fact a lot of TT mechs didn't have max armor to begin with] to chew through, but not twice the ammo.

There's also firing rates to consider.

Thus, mechs in MWO need several more tons of ammo than they did in BT. To be fair, though, MWO mechs also need a lot more DHS too.

[Moldur]

Really? Maybe ballistic mechs here and there aren't a big deal, but 4 drops of 12 Dragon-1Ns will wreck your ****. period. I'm surprised I don't see it more because it feels like absolute baby-mangling when I'm on the wrong end of it.

[Xetelian]

I have ran with cUAC5s in clanwar, my favorite build is 2x cUAC5s and 2x cERLL.

Even when I was later asked by the unit I was dropping with to bring all lasers I didn't do any more or less damage.

[Templar Dane]

Double the TT values for ammo, then increase the projectile speed on ACs across the board. Projectile weapons will still be harder to use than lasers, and the discount on heat is balanced by the weight of the weapons. Fixed.

[InspectorG]

LordNothing, on 29 May 2015 - 08:04 PM, said:

.

Agreed.

But i dont know anyone who thinks ammo weapons are inferior(maybe MG is?)

From what i gather, Clans use laserz more because their ballistics are sub-par...but are getting tweaked soon.

So yeah, make your shots count and do something useful after you run out.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Take ammo dependent lights and see how things go.

It ain't easy building a COM-3A to make effective use of two SRM6s and have enough ammo on a good build, for example. The 35 tonners have it a bit easier where you can easily fit five tons of SRM ammo at current rates, if you are willing to go a certain speed and judiciously shave armor.

Tweaking how missiles track would be how I'd like to change things for missiles. Allow missiles to ripple fire and follow the crosshair / reticle when fired until they impact or reach max range. Than have equipment like Artemis and TAG modify how fast missiles respond to adjusting the crosshair / reticle. Streaks would then retain their Lock system to simply preserve ammo and LRMs could then have indirect explored to see if a fire and forget system could work with NARC and TAG.

Such a change allows them to be more ammo efficient and helps with damage loss with massed missiles and allows ECM to work as-is with blocking paperdoll updates, while not being a hard counter.



Than with ballistic weapons, MG's can make use of actual projectiles and a boost to damage per ton, with other weapons at least getting velocity tweaks as necessary.

[Templar Dane]

It would help make the ballistic-centric medium mechs better too.

Edited by lordtzar, 29 May 2015 - 10:14 PM.

[LordNothing]

InspectorG, on 29 May 2015 - 10:00 PM, said:

Agreed.

But i dont know anyone who thinks ammo weapons are inferior(maybe MG is?)

From what i gather, Clans use laserz more because their ballistics are sub-par...but are getting tweaked soon.

So yeah, make your shots count and do something useful after you run out.

im actually a big fan of clan ballistics. the the ultra 2 leaves something to be desired, but its in the same boat as the is ac2. the ultra 10s and 20s are great and the 5 is great if you have more than one. a small buff would be appreciated but not required. the lb cannons are also nice, the 2 and 5 being more effective stand alone weapons than their ultra counterparts the 20 is great for brawling, and the 10 fills the same niche as the is version.

its just those placeholder acs that are borked, and they need to be replaced, removed or improved.

[Alek Ituin]

People also seem to forget that ammunition does NOT need to be stacked, and you should NOT stack enough of it to hold the trigger down indefinitely. An AC/20 can easily get away with a mere 3 tons of ammunition, which *should* last a competent player the entire match (and then some). Of course, that hinges on people:

counting their shots
paying attention to ammo counters
paying attention to enemy paper dolls
placing shots on weak sections
having good aim
and generally conserving their ammo

Most people don't do this. They want their lasers so they can pewpew at all the things like a bunch of crack-addled squirrels.

[LordNothing]

i usually do 1.5 - 2.5 tons per gun. for big single guns like gauss and ac20 i might do 3 tons. and less if the other weapons are more powerful.

Edited by LordNothing, 30 May 2015 - 12:10 AM.

[badaa]

during the cw events 2 of my mech where ctf 3d 2x uac5s 2x erll and drg n1 2x ac5s 2xmls
and they wrecked ****

[Aresye]

The only problem I see here, is this supposed "myth" that as long as you use up all your ammo or last 1/4 of a CW match, everything is good.

Yes, it makes sense that since CW matches are 30min long, one only has to bring enough ammo to last 7.5 minutes. With people believing nonsense like this, it's no wonder so many solo players despise CW.

CW is about teamwork. Each mech you bring should be effective for as long as possible before needing the next. Your team may be ready to make a push at the same moment you run out of ammo. Now they need to either wait for you to drop into another mech, sacrificing time they do not have, or push on without you and be a person down.

Or perhaps it's a counter-attack mode, and the scores are neck and neck with only a few minutes left. You being out of ammo is a complete liability. You can't fight obviously, but you also can't just simply eject, else you risk losing the game for your team. Are you willing to wager your team's chances of winning on you being able to get a kill in a fresh mech to even the scores? What if the enemy team sees the advantage and pulls back to secure the win? You just cost your team the game, all because you didn't bring enough ammo. Good job!

That's what people mean by saying ammo is a liability in CW. It isn't a game mode based on how much damage or kills you get. The "idea" of doing your part is a myth. Your "part" is 1/12 of the team, and if you are not able to contribute at any point to that full 12, you aren't doing your part, regardless of how many enemies you "damaged" beforehand.

The team is a single entity in CW. You should be a part of that entity at all times. That's what wins CW matches.

[Satan n stuff]

Moldur, on 29 May 2015 - 09:42 PM, said:

Really? Maybe ballistic mechs here and there aren't a big deal, but 4 drops of 12 Dragon-1Ns will wreck your ****. period. I'm surprised I don't see it more because it feels like absolute baby-mangling when I'm on the wrong end of it.

You don't see more of them for the same reason you never see 12 dakkawhales, they're not that good and they're easy to disable.